I ask why?

Number 2...
I can only carry concealed in the state of Florida. I find this topic interesting so here it goes.

The following are why I think some open carriers do so.

2) They are under the impression that open carry will deter crime. (I am not sure if there is fact or statistics on this)
I am going to offer some facts and statistics ... please follow the link below and note what is contained in paragraphs #4 and #5.... If you, or anyone else, is intellectually honest they will at least take a look at what is at this link:

http://www.leg.state.co.us/clics/clics2012a/commsumm.nsf/b4a3962433b52fa787256e5f00670a71/5de089825c00843e872579b80079912d/$FILE/SenState0305AttachB.pdf
 
Number 3..
I can only carry concealed in the state of Florida. I find this topic interesting so here it goes.

The following are why I think some open carriers do so.

3) That they are making a point and want everyone to know that they have the right to exercise there 2nd amendment.
Actually it isn't that the open carrier wants everyone to know that individual open carrier has the right to exercise their 2nd Amendment or is flaunting it to others... it is to show by example that EVERYONE! has the right to bear arms.
 
Number 4..
I can only carry concealed in the state of Florida. I find this topic interesting so here it goes.

The following are why I think some open carriers do so.

4) They hope that some police officer will question them on why they are carrying a firearm. Now I think this is the biggest reason younger people who carry open carry. I have seen a ton of U Tube videos of young people carrying openly, than video taping it, wasting a ton of time arguing with the police, and for what? Just to make a point and educate the police officer that they have the legal right to carry openly, really, don't (to the u tube videos of open carry) you have better things to do with your time.
Well... first of all... in Michigan a person has to be 21 years old before they are "allowed" by the State to get a concealed carry permit... however... a person who is 18 years old can legally carry a pistol if it is carried openly. So the only way a "younger people" could legally carry a pistol would be... open carry. Hence it is a bit arrogant to just assume the biggest reason younger people open carry is to cause cause a confrontation with a cop.

Now... it is legal for a cop to run bait and/or sting operations in hopes of catching citizens breaking the law when they take the bait or run afoul of the sting. But it is also legal for a citizen to run bait and/or sting operations in hopes of catching cops breaking the law when they take the bait or run afoul of the sting. And the best way to prove that is with the same tool the cops use... recordings. And the best way to put pressure on the cops is to put those videos out in public where everyone can see the cops screwing up.

But then some cops/excops don't like having their "authority" questioned or being caught acting less than professionally or even criminally. I have the solution!!! If the cops wouldn't harass someone engaged in a legal activity... you know, if they didn't take the bait... there wouldn't be a confrontation and there wouldn't be a video... but most importantly... a citizens rights would not be violated.
 
The reason I suggest asking why he is detaining you is because there is a chance he actually has reasonable articulable suspicion that you were involved in a crime- and it may have nothing to do with your OC at all.

In my mind the fact that the officer actually has reasonable suspicion based on clearly articuable facts (the actual term) is all the more reason to shut your mouth.

In the scenario you posit you’re going to know it’s not an ordinary stop and harass interaction because they’re going to be stopping more than you.

I am assuming you are military, in SERE training they teach you to say nothing to an enemy interrogator because once you start talking it’s only a matter of time before you say something they can use against you. Same rule applies to non consensual police inter actions, I want to speak to a lawyer before I answer any questions.
 
I can only carry concealed in the state of Florida. I find this topic interesting so here it goes.

The following are why I think some open carriers do so.

I know there are states that allow open carry and if that is your choice than go ahead, knock yourself out.
And folks most certainly do open carry in States where doing so won't put them in jail regardless of if some folks don't like it. People are catching on that the saying "just because you can doesn't mean you should" really means "Even though you can I don't want you to do it because I don't like it".
 
I am assuming you are military, in SERE training they teach you to say nothing to an enemy interrogator because once you start talking it’s only a matter of time before you say something they can use against you. Same rule applies to non consensual police inter actions, I want to speak to a lawyer before I answer any questions.
SERE School and some excellent videos by lawyers instructing DO NOT TALK TO THE POLICE, in addition to personal experience.

The exception to that policy that you cited comes from my thoughts about a false or deficient report made to the police, or a likewise poor communication to the officer from the dispatcher.

LEO: “Sir, may I see some ID?”
ME: “Are you detaining me?”
LEO: “Yes, we have a report that you were twirling your gun on your finger and pointing it at passing busses.”
ME (laughing): No, that’s ridiculous. Am I free to leave?”

The officer would be unlikely to pursue it any further if it’s only based on a single witness report. If he refused to accept my denial and continued to interrogate, then the only response he’ll get is, “Am I free to leave?” To dig heels from the get-go would also be effective, as a single witness report second hand isn’t enough to justify a Terry Stop, but somewhat unnecessary. He isn’t there to harass me; he’s just trying to do a job.

You’re right about the consensual encounter being similar to a POW interrogation though. He is trying to get you to talk, because once you start it’s very difficult to stop. I’ve seen youtube videos where the person being questioned refused to answer questions, answered a couple questions, and then refused to answer questions again. Seriously, you can’t have it both ways.

There’s another danger in running your yap during a consensual encounter. If the officer truly dislikes open carry (or just you) and wants to make your life difficult, he can get you talking about unrelated things. You might inadvertently contradict yourself or even stutter. Well, if he arrests you on suspicion of carrying a gun while high or drunk, no judge is going to second guess him. “Your Honor, the suspect was stuttering and slurring his words, so I attempted to identify him and he refused to comply. I had no choice but to take him in for drug/alcohol screening and identification.” The public’s greater need will easily trump your right to carry. In other words, it’s a judgment call and the court will side with the officer in such situations. That cannot happen if you politely refuse to speak to him.
 
I can only carry concealed in the state of Florida. I find this topic interesting so here it goes.

The following are why I think some open carriers do so.
1) They want people to look at them.
2) They are under the impression that open carry will deter crime. (I am not sure if there is fact or statistics on this)
3) That they are making a point and want everyone to know that they have the right to exercise there 2nd amendment.
4) They hope that some police officer will question them on why they are carrying a firearm. Now I think this is the biggest reason younger people who carry open carry. I have seen a ton of U Tube videos of young people carrying openly, than video taping it, wasting a ton of time arguing with the police, and for what? Just to make a point and educate the police officer that they have the legal right to carry openly, really, don't (to the u tube videos of open carry) you have better things to do with your time.

I know there are states that allow open carry and if that is your choice than go ahead, knock yourself out.


If I was allowed to carry open here in Florida I would not. I would not feel safe. I never felt comfortable when I was in uniform (law enforcement) when I had people standing behind me. I would catch myself resting my elbow on my firearm just in case someone who hated cops tried to make a move. So I would never carry open carry as a private citizen and that is my preference. I would rather no one know I had a full size handgun on me with a total of 31 rounds of ammunition. I don't need people looking at me "Look at me, look at me, I have a gun", I don't have the time to stand on the side of the road, being detained while I try to educate a rookie officer on the laws (if I lived in a state that allowed open carry). I guess it is hard for me to argue this because the sun shine state does not allow open carry but I am glad they do not permit it.
You're absolutely correct. That's what some open carriers do. Fortunately, about 99.9% of them don't. You run into some rather seedy and lowlife type characters in your daily job as an LEO. That can sometimes create a problem with many officers because it causes them to have a somewhat jaded view of all people in general. In short, they become prejudiced against the populace at large, projecting upon them the traits of the criminal element the LEOs deal with day in and day out. Most LEOs understand and deal with that successfully, so it doesn't become a problem, but the tendency is always there and must be overcome. You've apparently done the same thing with open carriers. I'd venture a guess you've run across one or two with bad attitudes, maybe heard stories from fellow officers or possibly just seen videos of encounters of some of these jerks with other LEOs. You've allowed your prejudice to override your common sense and you've assumed that those idiots are indicative of all open carriers, facts and indications to the contrary be damned. Quite honestly I have to say I feel for you. Being able to harbor a deep seated prejudice against innocent people like this speaks to a problem far deeper than just open carry of firearms. Having such a jaded attitude toward other people doesn't speak well for you or for your future, not to mention the possible implications for the people in the jurisdiction you serve. I hope things take a positive turn for you. Cynicism like that can eat away at you over time.
 
Here is what John Lott has to say about this argument:

"With CCW, the attacker doesn't know who is able to defend themselves and he doesn't know whom to attack first.

Take the case of attacking individual victims who are not around other people. Having more people carry concealed generally produces more of an overall crime reducing effect than open carry because criminals will leave the open carry person alone and then wait for someone that is unarmed. Concealed carry people produce a benefit for people other than themselves.


The question here isn't whether open carry doesn't deter crime. The question is which deters crime more: open or concealed carry.


The main reason for carrying openly is to make a public statement, to demonstrate to others that it is legal to carry a gun. That is fine if you want to make a public statement and that is your choice. If you want to reduce crime, while having some people with open carry is fine, having the same percentage of people with concealed carry would have a greater impact. "
. http://johnrlott.blogspot.com/2010/09/note-on-concealed-versus-open-carry.html
 

Sounds like he wants more concealed carriers because he wants more judge jury and executioners on the streets.

The open carrier helps everyone around them, because the bad guy usually won't act when an open carry is around, benefiting everybody in the vicinity.

The concealed carrier gets chosen or will be another sheep in the herd when the bad guy picks his victim. The concealed carrier then hasn't protected anyone...if the concealed carrier decides to intervene, they now become the judge and jury. If they don't intervene, they didn't help anyone. They didn't deter anyone.
Sent from my HTCONE using USA Carry mobile app
 
I prefer CC simply because I like to fly low, under the radar. Nothing at all to do with surprise.
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I also have a business that is VERY sensitive to firearms and have state laws that dictate some of my actions concerning that.
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Absolutely nothing against OC and wish it were more favorable for me here in my community. Camping, hunting, doing chores on the weekend... OC happens a lot.
 
OC, CC. They're two sides of the same coin. Regardless of how we decide to exercise our rights, we are all at least doing so. To me ( I'm a CC'r), the OC folks are still brothers and sisters and we are all in the same family.
 
Here is what John Lott has to say about this argument:

Having more people carry concealed generally produces more of an overall crime reducing effect than open carry because criminals will leave the open carry person alone and then wait for someone that is unarmed. Concealed carry people produce a benefit for people other than themselves

The first bold line is spot-on, and gives anyone thinking about OC'ing all the reason in the world to go ahead and start doing it.

The second bold line is a complete non-sequitur and has no connection to the preceding lines, nor is it supported at all by anything I haven't quoted (yet). The criminal will leave the OC'er alone. Check, that's why we OC, to increase the odds of that exact result. The criminal will move from the OC'er and pick someone who is unarmed. Check, but that's hardly the responsibility of the OC'er they just left alone. And then he says that CC'ers "produce" a benefit for people other than themselves???? How so Mr. Lott? It's a total crap-shoot whether or not the criminal picks a CC'er, and the only assumption Lott could be making is that every CC'er out there is going to run to the aid of any victim in their vicinity in order to "produce" a benefit for people other than themselves. It's an absolutely ridiculous assumption, and in any case, even if it weren't as ridiculous as it is, the OC'er who defended himself simply by being an OC'er has no bearing whatsoever on crime committed against CC'ers or no-C'ers. That responsibility lies only at the criminal's doorstep.

But it gets worse. Even after he defines exactly why we OC correctly, he sticks his size 12 foot down his size 16 throat when he spews this canard:

The main reason for carrying openly is to make a public statement, to demonstrate to others that it is legal to carry a gun.

I've read all the myriad articles and listened to all the interviews where his research is assailed as unreliable at best and downright garbage at worst. I've tended to defend him, or at worst, just ignore the criticisms and accept his conclusions internally because, in general, they do make sense to me. But I've also seen him in interviews where he tripped over his own tongue trying to make a point, and now this utter idiocy, and I'm inclined to throw him to the wolves. Who needs some intellectual who has said before that when he started his research he was anti-gun, speaking against a perfectly legal way of exercising our rights on the basis that the deterrent we provide ourselves, doesn't extend to others who are too stupid to take responsibility for their own damned security???

Sorry Mr. Lott, I don't do pretzel logic. Especially not when it's preceded by the real, right, and appropriate rationale for OC'ing. You get it in one sentence, and completely go off the rails in the next. It doesn't help gun-owners of either discipline to have such a double-minded, double-talker speaking for us.

Of course, that comes not only from an OC'er, but one who vocally supported OC before I ever started doing it myself, and since Lott is speaking up for the much-favored CC crowd, I'm sure I'll be criticized for sussing and parsing his indisputably inconsistent statements. Because after all, we're on opposing "teams," right? Well, maybe y'all are, but I'm not. I'm on the crime (against me and mine) deterrent team. I'm on the full width and breadth of the 2nd Amendment original meaning team. I'm on the wear my weapon the most comfortable way I can team. I'm on the I don't need to explain myself or justify why or how I carry team, except sometimes that team is called I won't let double-talking intellectuals who couldn't figure stuff out for himself without supporting data to help him along denigrate my choices when I don't suffer from such cognitive deficiencies myself without debunking it team, so there ya go.

Blues
 
Here is what John Lott has to say about this argument:

. John Lott's Website: Note on concealed versus open carry

Besides agreeing with what Blues said, I am guessing his "carry concealed generally produces more of an overall crime reducing effect " statement meant something along the lines of if a criminal knows a high percentage of the population carries concealed, he knows it is likely whoever he chooses as a victim is armed, whether he sees a gun or not. Therefore he may pass on unarmed victims because there's a high chance of them being armed. Of course, this depends on a very high percentage of people carrying concealed. For instance, if two out of every three people are armed, he might pass on all three and choose a different career. So I suppose I see the point he's trying to make (though he didn't do it exactly clearly), but unfortunately that isn't the situation anywhere I know about, and therefore doesn't really apply. Maybe if he'd added "having more people concealed carry has the potential to produce more of a crime reducing effect" I'd go with it, but it just doesn't work now.
 
Besides agreeing with what Blues said, I am guessing his "carry concealed generally produces more of an overall crime reducing effect " statement meant something along the lines of if a criminal knows a high percentage of the population carries concealed, he knows it is likely whoever he chooses as a victim is armed, whether he sees a gun or not. Therefore he may pass on unarmed victims because there's a high chance of them being armed. Of course, this depends on a very high percentage of people carrying concealed.

I was thinking that as well and I don't know of anywhere in America where a high percentage of the population is carrying concealed or otherwise. even in Colorado or Wyoming it's not more than 8 or so percent
 
I think you’ve missed the point.

There are three types of police – citizen encounters:
1 The Consensual Conversation
2 Seizure
3 Arrest

#1 requires nothing, #2 requires “reasonable articulable suspicion” that you’re involved in a crime (a hunch doesn’t cut it), and #3 requires probable cause.

The goal of the officer is to start at #1, move to #2 and then move to #3 (assuming worst case, which you should). If you encounter a police officer that you didn’t call, and he or she is speaking to you, you first need to determine where you are; #1 or #2. ALWAYS ask, “Are you detaining me?” If no- WALK AWAY. Don’t chat, debate, argue, or distribute literature to the officer- WALK AWAY.

If yes-“Officer, for suspicion of what crime are you detaining me?” If he says, “Because you have a gun” he’s either being evasive or he’s ignorant. Either way, shut up. Don’t talk. If he doesn’t answer, ask again. Don’t say anything except to ask that one question. If he knows he’s full of hot air, he’ll probably walk away first.

This is true for open, concealed, or no carry. The police are too busy dashing from call to call to randomly engage the citizenry in casual chitchat.

While I can't argue your points except to pick nits which isn't worth it since you hit the major points, your terminology is off.

The three police interactions are called:

1) mere encounter
2) investigative detention
3) arrest

Also, if you are being detained in an investigative detention and the officer says the only reason you are being questioned is that you have a gun, tell him of Terry vs. OH and then ask to speak to a supervisor if he doesn't say you are free to leave. An officer in an OC state cannot detain you only because you are carrying a gun on your person.
 
That was the only explanation I could figure out for the statements in the article.
I didn't get that a bit. He was speaking about crime deterrent benefits. Being judge jury and executioner is a response, not a deterrent. What he means is that criminals are more deterred by not knowing who is carrying a gun than they are by knowing where the guns are. Both are deterrents, but one is easier to work around, which is exactly what Lott said. He has a point, but as he also notes, people often don't open carry to deter crime. In my experience, they almost never do. I've yet to meet anyone who open carries for that purpose. Every open carrier I've met has done so for the reasons I expressed earlier, for self defense and to support 2nd amendment rights. Or as Lott succinctly put it, to make a public statement, the point being to reinforce our 2nd amendment rights. But nothing in his post suggested anyone be judge jury and executioner. He was only comparing the efficacy of one method of deterrence against the other.
 
I'm sorry, it has come to my attention that some people feel that there needs to be an expert in the law within all states that allow open carry. I'm sorry, there isn't a lawyer out there that would admit they are that. What I do have is an article that backs up my point in this post:

<snip> Also, if you are being detained in an investigative detention and the officer says the only reason you are being questioned is that you have a gun, tell him of Terry vs. OH and then ask to speak to a supervisor if he doesn't say you are free to leave. An officer in an OC state cannot detain you only because you are carrying a gun on your person.

Here is the article you may want to read: Link Removed
 

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