How Long Before You CC With a Bullet In the Chamber?


I always carry round in chamber. I do not dry fire in house because you can get in habit of doing so and discharge your weapon with round in chamber. Also I always keep gun in same place. The worse feeling in world is if you come in to house and get distracted by phone call or something else and forget where you put gun.I carry a Glock so I feel as safe as with a revolver. I do not carry a 1911 often because in my job I carry in pocket holster or on belt in Fobus holster or in IWB with shirt tucked over.
 

Statistics on armed encounters reveal that time is almost always critical. Condition 1 for me always. Here is an easy and safe exersize that will really open your eyes. Stand at low ready, facing your target. Have a partner stand behind you with their hand on your shoulder. Have them start running away and you raise your gun and fire as quickly as you can when you feel their hand leave your shoulder. Have them note where they are when your gun goes off. Few can hit the target before they go 3 or 4 steps and most of us take more time than that. That is with the firearm at low ready, not holstered.
Another point that should be made. All guns that I carry for protection use the same type of action. I used to use a chopped 1911 all the time. When I had a position where the Federal Gov. mandated (and furnished) a HK with a "double action" trigger that was what I trained with and used for thousands rounds. When I retired I gave them the HK back. Went out to the range with the 1911. Too many times (even after more than 500 rounds) I occasionally failed to disengage the safety. I am an old guy now and know about "old dogs and new tricks" but it was very disheartening to not be able to trust my performance with my 1911. Training and practice is more important than any other thing, including firearm selection. So for me HK double action primary, Ruger LCP for back up. Condition ONE.
 
Carried with one in the chamber right after I'd been shooting a couple times

but only openly and in my car where open carry is legal w/o a permit in Georgia (lived there at the time). I did carry in a holster w/ a thumb break and trigger guard coverage. As soon as I got my permit, I carried with a round chambered and concealed. A 1911 w/o a round in the chamber is a 40 ounce club which is okay as a club, but works much better as a gun.

The 1911 is now a home defense gun for several reasons - it's heavy, it's hard for a 5'7" 160 lb guy to conceal w/o a jacket and my wife likes it better than my other guns. I tend to carry an HK P2000 which is much smaller and lighter.

My advice is to use a holster and practice making sure your index finger is out of the trigger guard until you are ready to fire even if that is a fraction of a second. I wouldn't worry about a thumb break on a holster holding a revolver, double action semi-auto, DA/SA auto or Glock/XD as long as the holster holds the gun when it's supposed to. Practice (carrying and drawing) a lot and you'll be more comfortable carrying w/ a round in the chamber.
 
This has been kicked around since time immemorial. IMHO, Glocks are 'mediocre' safe, despite the mindset that say keep the finger off the trigger. There are lots of other opportunities to get yourself in trouble with a Glock. When a LEO draws from a 2 or 3X secure duty holster he is probably in a situation where a shot needs to be taken rapidly. I'm with the NO safety crowd on that one and one in the tube. However, although I fully agree that speed to first accurate shot is of the essence I have seen the damage that a stupid mistake can cause and unless you are a PRO (few are) I would either take the time to rack a round or I would use a firearm that offers a bit more safety, such as:
(a) holstered revolver - cylinder doesn't turn and it can't go bang
(b) Glock with NY1 trigger - that 8# pull makes a huge difference in safety over a 3 or 5 # pull. Try it. One in the tube sure.
(c) HK Squeeze cocker (expensive) - totally safe. You'd have to be caught in a blender to have that thing go off on you despite the trigger pull.
(d) Sig P239 .357, .40 or 9mm, first pull 8# second pull 3#
There are other choices but these are mine at the moment and I am thinking that my preference is for the Glock or Sig option. Especially like the Sig option as the first pull is 8# and you need to be a moron to let one loose with an 8# pull, a good holster and a set of grey matter. Followed by 3# pulls for accuracy and recovery. Love it. Glocks a close second but all 8# pulls.

But, each to his own. Whatever you are comfy with is what it boils down to. Keep in mind I have seen the damage, both online and in real life that a fraction of a second of stupidity or carelessness offers and it is not pretty.
 
Lots of mixed opinions here but I have to agree with the "when you feel comfortable" way of thinking. I personally haven't received my ccw yet, taking the class next month, but while on my own property, I carry for practice, with a round in the chamber. My level of comfort on this comes from the particular gun I have, which is double action, every shot. I feel very safe with this, knowing that the firing pin has to be pulled back and released every shot, not sitting in a potential firing position, to be released by the trigger. In an urgent situation, not having a round already in the chamber will definitely be a disadvantage but so is your personal uneasiness about the status of your weapon. I would advise you to keep "playing" with your gun, get as familiar with it as you can until you feel that it is an extension of your body. Know it like any other tool or object that you use daily. Be confident with it and what it is capable of. Wear it chambered around your house, when you're alone at first if you need to. Only then will you feel comfortable knowing you have a fully loaded weapon on your person. Hope this helps.
 
how long

torontogunguy said:
rmarcustrucker said:
Biggest safety rule I use is my gun is ALWAYS in a holster. When I arm or unarmed my carry system allows me to put on holster with gun every morning. Once holstered I do a safety check (most days) and then reload and re holster. When I come home I secure it and it's my back up to the long guns.

QUOTE]

Depends on what I am carrying. I have a problem with carrying my baby Glock with one in the chamber until I put a heavier trigger pull on it. Just too easy for an AD to happen. On the other hand, I will carry a 1911 with one in the chamber as they generally have both a thumb safety and a grip safety and I have a level of comfort that works for me. I have just purchased a Sig - DAO - and will carry with one in the chamber as the initial trigger pull is about eleven pounds. No thumb nor grip safety. It's a matter of what you are comfy with. And the speed to your first accurate shot is indeed important but so is not blowing your hand off or putting a round through an artery by accident. Be comfy. Use a top quality holster. Make sure your gun is in good repair. Funny, never had a problem with loading up a revolver in all chambers - it was my baby Glocks that got me going.

I must comment on the comment above about using the handgun as a backup to a long gun. If it is being used for home defense this is a HUGE boo-boo. Keep in mind there are several DISadvantages to using a long gun in defending your family. First and foremost is that the round is going to enter the perp and exit the perp and will very likely go through the wall behind the perp and perhaps even the next wall as well. I have seen it happen in these parts and a fellow was killed last year like that. Secondly, having taken some home defense training I would not attempt to clear my home with a long gun... too difficult and too chancy. Much easier to "slice the pie" in clearing your home rooms with a handgun of sufficient caliber.

Having said that, a good old shotgun, properly and safely secured, when racked, will often scare the crap out of a burglar. In my case, we have had two home invasions in my lifetime and in both cases there is no way that even pointing the shotgun at the nose of the perps would have stopped them they were so high. In our last event they were still trying to pry their way into our FRONT door when taken down at gunpoint by twenty LEO's arriving with lights and sirens and with our home alarm system howling and all of the lights in the house main floor and outside lit up like daylight. And we had our front doors replaced last year and they are half glass, to boot!

For my part, I want a round that will do the job, I want the presence of mind to take the right shots and I want the ability to get that first accurate shot off without fumbling to cock my weapon. Carrying concealed is a different situation for me and I work with it accordingly. Not an easy decision - many variables. YOU need to be comfortable and safe. I am playing with the HK P7M8 and the Sig P229 at the moment; no problem with one in the tube in the P7's as they are squeeze cockers. Think the Sig's trigger is safe enough to allow me to be comfy carrying with one in the tube as well. Remember, you gotta invest in a top quality holster too if you are going to do that. Tuck your shirt in and have someone pull it out for you and get it caught on the trigger and you figure out the rest. At least an 8 or 10 pound pull gives you some chance to recover before bang. I dunno. I can keep my finger off the trigger with the best of them but I still worry. Both ways.
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i cc condition 1, i also have a m-4 at home but it has a mag loaded with D.R.T. frangable rounds, empty chamber, the frangable wont go through walls and penatrate with a small hole about 2in. and disperce 100% energy ina wound channel the size of a soccer ball. the military has used these rounds in iraq and afganistan about 8yrs.now.
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Situation:
Someone walks up beside your vehicle in order to carjack you or rob you or simply is whacko and wants to end your life that day (as has happened to me... and I am living on about my ninth life right now).

You have moved your holster around for appendix carry (I am thinking it is easier to leave my IWB holster whence it was placed on my belt, etc. and simply plunk a paddle holster at my appendix).

NOW you have a problem. How are you going to draw and shoot? You can't = you have to rack a round first which means it is going to take time and it is going to be obvious.

Nope. I was a true believer in NOT carrying one in the chamber for years until I finally educated myself to the point that I realized that the difference between life and death just might come down to the racking of that round into the chamber. I have never carried otherwise since.

And like I say... a revolver (say, a snubbie) in a tight holster is NOT going to AD/ND while being carried even if something manages to get a grip on the trigger... if the cylinder won't turn in that holster it simply will not go off.

On my semiauto's it is a different situation and I have taken to using a semi/semis that have an 8# pull, at least for the first shot. So I am going to carry a semi that has either that kind of trigger and a great holster, or better yet, a semi that has a grip safety and thumb safety, neither of which are going to make a difference in the time it takes me to draw and get off a first accurate shot with one hand.

Having said all of this, I can appreciate where those that do not want to carry with one in the chamber are coming from as I did exactly that for the first few years until I realized the disadvantage it was placing my at.

A well practiced shooter with one in the chamber and no added crap can draw, aim and get off a pretty accurate shot in under one second. The same shooter, faced with having to rack the slide, adds only one half of one second to their draw and shot.

The question is, given that both shooters may be well practiced and qualified, which one would you rather be? Your life may depend on your decision so think hard.

Again, I wish that the HK P7M8 squeeze cocker was not so darned expensive and so heavy. It is reliable and dead accurate. Above all it is probably the safest gun that I own and I have no trouble carrying it in my pocket with my hand on the grip when necessary. I'd rather have a smoking hole in my nice jacket than in me.

Each to his own I suppose - just get all the facts and data before making that final decision.

And as far as using long guns for home defense. NOT for me. If I have to explain the reasons you have missed that portion of the class. My mind wanders thinking about a small shotgun though... we have some pretty short ones - and loaded with the right load they are lethal. Loaded with birdshot and you are going to scare the bad guy and find the shot most likely in his jacket lining. And even at that I think that I would rather have the shorter handgun with a weapon light or seperate high intensity flashlight and perhaps a .40, .357 or .45 +P load (especially in the winter). They've done tests that show 9mm doing the same damage in ballistic gel as a .45 but they forgot to put the ballistic gel into a nice leather winter coat. Then the difference is quite something and it's a fast .357 that I think I would like to be playing with. Ammo is a whole nuther story my friends. In the meantime, I am a fan of my glock 30 with Gold Dots +P but I have heavy hands and can get away three shots in rapid succession with good accuracy. Again - one needs to research the topic and then take the ammo to the range with the gun one plans on using.

BTW, we have four AR's and I would not dream of home defense on the inside with any of them. Now, in a Katrina situation? Big difference. You want the range and the power.
 
Think I'll put my CCW away and just walk with hardballer. When someone uses language like "git go", he means business and knows what he is doing. Happy New Year hardballer.
 
Mountaingoat61 said:
Lots of mixed opinions here but I have to agree with the "when you feel comfortable" way of thinking. I personally haven't received my ccw yet, taking the class next month, but while on my own property, I carry for practice, with a round in the chamber. My level of comfort on this comes from the particular gun I have, which is double action, every shot. I feel very safe with this, knowing that the firing pin has to be pulled back and released every shot, not sitting in a potential firing position, to be released by the trigger. In an urgent situation, not having a round already in the chamber will definitely be a disadvantage but so is your personal uneasiness about the status of your weapon. I would advise you to keep "playing" with your gun, get as familiar with it as you can until you feel that it is an extension of your body. Know it like any other tool or object that you use daily. Be confident with it and what it is capable of. Wear it chambered around your house, when you're alone at first if you need to. Only then will you feel comfortable knowing you have a fully loaded weapon on your person. Hope this helps.
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The other half of the DAO equation in making things a bit safer, of course, is the fact that DAO's are generally a stronger trigger pull to go bang. Combine this with a decocker or a safety of some sort and now you are talking!
 
oldvet53 said:
torontogunguy said:
i cc condition 1, i also have a m-4 at home but it has a mag loaded with D.R.T. frangable rounds, empty chamber, the frangable wont go through walls and penatrate with a small hole about 2in. and disperce 100% energy ina wound channel the size of a soccer ball. the military has used these rounds in iraq and afganistan about 8yrs.now.
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Frangible rounds, if I am not mistaken, are prohibited in armed conflict - we are restricted to hardball if I am not mistaken for handguns anyway. (Of course one raises the question of armour piercing, etc.... but I was under the impression that hardball was the only legal round for doing business). Comments?

Frangible, of course, makes sense in many situations, but I personally would not use a frangible round for self defense. Just too much energy loss when the thing crumbles from what I am reading. I'll stick with Gold Dots or some of the newer stuff in something I can place accurately.

As one of the trainers from the SAS said... if you can place a ten shot magazine in a pie plate at 25 feet as fast as you can pull the trigger you have a round that is going to do you well in self defense, starting at 9mm.

Having said that, I have no problem with 9mm. engineered SD rounds, but given my choice will go with something a bit heftier, .40, .357Sig, .45ACP in +P or +P+ if the gun will handle the pressure and if I can handle ten rounds in the pie plate as fast as I can let them off.

One needs to remember that there is a very fine line between letting of ten rounds rapidly and doing a very well placed double or triple tap slowly enough to place the rounds where they need to be. Shot placement is far more critical than quantity as many of the incident reports will show, where both sides fired a full magazine at one another with zero hits at ten feet. Sound crazy? Sounded crazy to me too. But it is, believe it or not, true.

It takes tremendous training, practice and willpower to slow things down just enough to place your shots properly as opposed to 'spraying'. And to me a frangible round is akin to firing a shotgun shell made for trap shooting where you are going to find less than desirable penetration and certainly not the penetration that FBI testing and reports tell us is essential in CQB.

And then on top of all of that we have to consider what time of year it is, what the weather is going to be (is the bad guy going to be wearing a heavy leather coat) and so on. I would love to be able to carry a hefty .45ACP +P or +P+ all the time but I know that is just not practical.

Not as simple as it seems I am afraid and much research, training and practice is advisable BEFORE finding oneself in a 'situation' (and I can assure you that it is a whole lot different shooting at IPSC/IDPA targets than it is when someone is shooting back at you, even in the dark). Keep in mind that your first shot is going to reveal you... your training should be teaching you to practice shooting at that target while you are moving (unfortunately, most ranges do not permit this type of practice unless you are a LEO or at a specialized range.)
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the d.r.t. rounds Have been used in iraq and afganistan for 6-8yrs. in combat. the troops refer to them as dead right there! if the military is useing them in c.q.b thats good enough for me, and i like the wound channel the size of a soccer ball. better to be judged by 12 than carried by 6.
 
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Depending on the situation, I carry a XD45 Compact or a PPS40. I now carry with a round chambered at all times. It took me a little while to get used to it.
 
hardballer said:
Carried my Government model 1911 with one in the chamber, cocked and locked from the git go.
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Funny thing is that there are even arguments about this method of carry, which I personally think is safer than carrying a Glock as 1911's today are generally built to such standards that chances of an AD/ND do not depend on simply not getting something stuck in that trigger guard....

However, having said that, read Ayoob and some of the others on carrying Condition 1 and you will get the impression, variously, that it is either the BESTEST way to go or it is the WORSTEST way to go and eveything in between.

I would agree that comfort has much to do with what is going to be safest for an individual as that individual becomes more trained and experienced.

In the beginning you could not get me to carry a Glock concealed under ANY circumstances with one in the tube but after reading, practicing, and playing.... I am not quite comfy carrying my mini Glocks concealed deeply with one in the tube (cocked of course) in a GOOD quality holster. No troubles with this any longer. But that is not to say that I don't feel there are other handguns out there that are absolutely safer - the HK P7M8, Sig P239's and so on.... each for their own reasons. The P7M8 is a squeeze cocker and to me is extremely safe, even without a holster. The P239's are great - first shot at 8 pounds or so and then subsequent shots at about 3# or so.... and you decock back to 8# before holstering, etc.

Agreed, comfort is important, but comfort with education and experience.

I carried an unloaded but cocked Glock around for a while before giving it some further thought. It was still cokced and "unfired" much to my amazement - but reading, training, etc. and I realized that I was going to be happier with the 8# NY1 trigger pulls on them and so they were. And everyone lived happily ever after.

In closing, yet again, I would say this: Remember that it is better to have a pistola and NOT EVER need it than to find yourself in need and NOT have one. THIS I speaketh from personal experience and I made whatever changes the law would permit me (living on two sides of the border) to protect myself and my loved ones. Asides from having that HUUUUUUGE revolver stuck in my nose (literally) in Orlando FL we managed to have not one but TWO attempted home invasions at home in an upper middle class neighborhood north of Toronto, Ontario. The latest, 1.5 years ago, two guys with guns and pry bars tried for ten minutes to gain access through our front doors, with the dog barking, the alarm wailing, police cars with lights going coming down the road, etc. Higher than kites methings.... the doors are half glass and we have patio doors at the rear. Go figure.

So MY moral of the story is simply this. Whatever you do out there? BE SAFE.

P.S. I'm also the guy with personal experience of the aftereffects of a fraction of a second of absent=mindedness. It is MY cousing who pretty much took his hand off with one round from a revolver that was thought to be empty or something (the true story has never been revealed). I believe it may have been a draw and point drill gone bad or something more mundane like that.... one will never know. What I do know is that he will never have the use of that hand again. Ever. And I have nightmares about the same ND happending when I am appendix carrying and something gets into the trigger guard on a Glock. Now, if they would only put at least a GRIP safety on my Glocks and Sigs I would be the happiest guy in the world. The odds of two seperate and distinct acts of negligence happening simultaneously to give us an unexpected BANG are an order of magnitude less likely to happen.

Remember, whatever you do. Have the gun with you if legal. And be safe.

God bless everyone and wishing everyone a Happy and HEALTHY New Year from one who had H1N1 in May and was on life support for most of the month of June last year. All the more reason to have an 'equalizer' with you at all times where legal... I could not fight off a canary by hand even now. I am told it will be at least another year before I am back to where I was before H1N1 and the following pneumonia battle. Friends, keep washing or disinfecting your hands, stay away from folks that are coughing, stop shaking hands and keep your hands away from your face. In for God's sake... if you can get shots... GET THEM! I am supposedly immune now but still got the H1N1 shot, reg flu shot and a pneumonia shot. The worst part of the ordeal was knowing I had left my family unprotected - and watching them wheel all the body bags out of Critical Care after midnight.

Be safe is not just for firearms and self defense with them.
 
oldvet53 said:
the d.r.t. rounds Have been used in iraq and afganistan for 6-8yrs. in combat. the troops refer to them as dead right there! if the military is useing them in c.q.b thats good enough for me, and i like the wound channel the size of a soccer ball. better to be judged by 12 than carried by 6.
Click to expand...

Okay. I am stumped. Always thought hardball was the standard NATO round by convention.

PLEEEEZ explain to me the D.R.T. round. And why it is not a standard L.E. round over here? I have studied accounts of perps with 15 rounds center mass who continued to function long enough to kill L.E.O.'s. In fact, I read just this month about a perp that was shot THRU THE HEART that managed to turn and walk half a block before collapsing (They surmise it was the drugs in his system that kept him going). It was a single shot BTW; the shooter, although 'no billed' by the Grand Jury eventually, was indeed arrested and charged with Murder, and even after being 'no billed' had a heck of a time getting her handgun back such that her sister gifted her a replacement. In the end, if I have my stories straight, cuz I love to read these and find them educational... they realized that the blood spatter was on the INSIDE of the doorway and not the outside. Bingo, castle doctrine, self defense shooting, $25,000 later you are free to go.

Anyway, back to the point of this post. Will someone please educate me as what a D.R.T. (dead right there) round might be as I have never seen one and would love to be able to carry same. I could cut a fortune in range time spent on triple tapping two in the CV triangle and one in the 'dead stop' triange taking out the cerebral cortex. Every wee bit of my training points to the ONLY dead stop shot as being a cerebral cortex shot, but if I can improve odds with better ammo I'm good to go with that too.
 
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