Gun Free Zones a mistake

[opsspec1991]

Think about this, the county in California that this killer lived in was a massive gun free zone, the sheriff wouldn’t allow anyone to have a concealed carry permit and this begs the question, if there had been a person there who was allowed to carry a concealed gun and had confronted this killer, would there have been fewer people who were killed.

Just like the person a year ago who was going to kill some people at a mall and was confronted by a concealed carry person and then that killer stopped and didn’t go any further and killed himself with his stolen gun.

Gun free zones are just target rich environments for someone intent to do harm and the main thing that stops a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun.

 

[gundaddypv]

That goes without saying. The thing about laws is that criminals intent on doing harm don't follow laws. Otherwise, meth, murder, rape and theft would be exactly zero in California. Instead, good citizens must make a decision. Good citizens must obey the law, and therefore be at a huge disadvantage versus criminals, or they must become criminals themselves and ignore the law. We're so far into this anti-gun agenda that it's going to take a huge awakening to change peoples' minds.

I mourn for California. I don't think there are any potential politicians left to fix the law.

 

[BluesStringer]

Law-abiding citizens with guns aren't the answer to all violent crime. As I understand it, most of the gunfire came from his car, and most of those rounds were fired while the car was moving. I don't know about anybody else, but the stars would have to align such as never before in history before I'd take a shot at the driver of a moving car with gunfire coming out of it on busy streets. Looking around, there are no time-lines available that I could find that gives actual times at certain locations where he did exit his car, but it sounds like it was mere seconds and that most of his rounds were fired while moving.

My belief is that this has nothing to do with law-abiding citizens carrying guns at all. Just gotta chalk this one up to a mentally ill young man who went off the rails. That's the long and the short of it. No background checks that don't severely infringe on all the rights of the citizens of America would have stopped it, and no super-hero, Johnny-on-the-spot CC'er or OC'er would have likely had any influence on it. Sometimes it just boils down to sh!t happens. This is one of those times. You don't have to support or have any tolerance for the idiotic gun free zones laws in this country in order to come to that conclusion. You just have to look at what happened and admit that none of us could've done a damned thing to stop it if we were there.

Blues

 

[gundaddypv]

I disagree. Here in Arizona, mass-shootings are rare. That fact can't be attributed to a homogeneous culture, really good wine or above-average mental health care. In Arizona, pulling a gun on anyone is EXTREMELY DANGEROUS! I see people open-carry every day. Sometimes I catch people concealed-carrying, mainly because I get pleasure from spotting it.

FACT: An armed society is a polite society.
FACT: Gun-free zones (like the whole state of CA) are free-fire zones.
FACT: Criminals choose soft targets.
FACT: The entire state of Arizona (besides the Tribal land, which doesn't recognize the 2nd Amendment) is a hard target.

Hard to argue with the truth.

 

[netmindr]

That goes without saying.

Actually, just the opposite. If we don't take the time and effort to make the truth known, even if it is common sense, then the anti-gunners will win easily. Those on the fence will only see and hear the negatives and will naturally side with those making the most noise. This especially goes for those with no knowledge of guns that can be easily frightened by half truths and lies.

Unfortunately, the squeaky wheel will always get the grease, regardless of whether or not it's the right thing to do.

 

[telpinaro]

Law-abiding citizens with guns aren't the answer to all violent crime. As I understand it, most of the gunfire came from his car, and most of those rounds were fired while the car was moving. I don't know about anybody else, but the stars would have to align such as never before in history before I'd take a shot at the driver of a moving car with gunfire coming out of it on busy streets. Looking around, there are no time-lines available that I could find that gives actual times at certain locations where he did exit his car, but it sounds like it was mere seconds and that most of his rounds were fired while moving.

My belief is that this has nothing to do with law-abiding citizens carrying guns at all. Just gotta chalk this one up to a mentally ill young man who went off the rails. That's the long and the short of it. No background checks that don't severely infringe on all the rights of the citizens of America would have stopped it, and no super-hero, Johnny-on-the-spot CC'er or OC'er would have likely had any influence on it. Sometimes it just boils down to sh!t happens. This is one of those times. You don't have to support or have any tolerance for the idiotic gun free zones laws in this country in order to come to that conclusion. You just have to look at what happened and admit that none of us could've done a damned thing to stop it if we were there.

Blues

Just to mention... if one of the people he stabbed had a gun, it might have stopped there. I am betting he was unstable enough he would have tried this regardless of how hard or soft his targets were, though.

 

[BluesStringer]

I disagree. Here in Arizona, mass-shootings are rare.

Mass shootings are "rare" everywhere. And excuse me, but wasn't Gabby Giffords shot in AZ? By a whack-job with a long history of mental illness? And wasn't it a concealed carrier who helped subdue him who never even drew his weapon?

I'm for every single American who wants to be armed, to be armed. I'm not any more nervous about whack-jobs getting guns than I am about our government using the ones they already have against us, which I believe is inevitable before this country takes its last breath. But this isn't about imaginary lines on a map. No one could stop Loughner in AZ any more than they would've been able to stop Rodger in CA. Sh!t happens. That's it. Anything else is just pretending, and I don't believe in pretend super-powers.

Hard to argue with the truth.

Uh...yeah...that's exactly my point. How soon Arizonans have forgotten about Loughner, eh?

Blues

 

[gfrlaser]

Some great points made in this post. Thanks.

 

[BluesStringer]

Just to mention... if one of the people he stabbed had a gun, it might have stopped there.

This may very well be true, but it's irrelevant to the discussion. The stabbings happened in his apartment, which is not a gun free zone.

 

[Kramer1113]

I disagree. Here in Arizona, mass-shootings are rare. That fact can't be attributed to a homogeneous culture, really good wine or above-average mental health care. In Arizona, pulling a gun on anyone is EXTREMELY DANGEROUS! I see people open-carry every day. Sometimes I catch people concealed-carrying, mainly because I get pleasure from spotting it.

FACT: An armed society is a polite society.
FACT: Gun-free zones (like the whole state of CA) are free-fire zones.
FACT: Criminals choose soft targets.
FACT: The entire state of Arizona (besides the Tribal land, which doesn't recognize the 2nd Amendment) is a hard target.

Hard to argue with the truth.

I tend to disagree with *FACT: Criminals choose soft targets.
If your looking to rob a store then Yes, But, if you looking to shoot someone, then generally they tend to go where the people they want to shoot are rather than targeting a soft target.
Shootings, more times than not are done by choice. Shooter shows up at location of fight, friction, firing, family and so on.
Just My Humble Opinion.

More tom the point, Gun Free Zones in ALMOST every case is a bad idea.

 

[telpinaro]

This may very well be true, but it's irrelevant to the discussion. The stabbings happened in his apartment, which is not a gun free zone.

Hence my second sentence to get back on track... :smile:

 

[kerb]

Law-abiding citizens with guns aren't the answer to all violent crime. As I understand it, most of the gunfire came from his car, and most of those rounds were fired while the car was moving. I don't know about anybody else, but the stars would have to align such as never before in history before I'd take a shot at the driver of a moving car with gunfire coming out of it on busy streets. Looking around, there are no time-lines available that I could find that gives actual times at certain locations where he did exit his car, but it sounds like it was mere seconds and that most of his rounds were fired while moving.

My belief is that this has nothing to do with law-abiding citizens carrying guns at all. Just gotta chalk this one up to a mentally ill young man who went off the rails. That's the long and the short of it. No background checks that don't severely infringe on all the rights of the citizens of America would have stopped it, and no super-hero, Johnny-on-the-spot CC'er or OC'er would have likely had any influence on it. Sometimes it just boils down to sh!t happens. This is one of those times. You don't have to support or have any tolerance for the idiotic gun free zones laws in this country in order to come to that conclusion. You just have to look at what happened and admit that none of us could've done a damned thing to stop it if we were there.

Blues

First three were killed with a knife. A cc'er there would have had a chance to stop it before it started.

 

[BluesStringer]

First three were killed with a knife. A cc'er there would have had a chance to stop it before it started.

As I said to telpinaro just a couple or three posts above, while that may be true, it's irrelevant to this discussion. The first three were killed in their and the killer's own apartment - not in a gun free zone. While no less tragic and despicable than any other murder, assuming those three were of an age to legally arm themselves in their own home, they were obviously not so-inclined, or if any of them had armed themselves, they weren't of sufficient training and/or mindset to deal with the attack. Whatever the truth on that score is, it has nothing to do with the CC laws or gun free zones.

I grew up in CA. I've been a shooter since age 9. I left in large part because of the overly-restrictive gun laws, which have only gotten worse since we left 22 years ago (almost to the day as a matter of fact). There is no greater supporter of CA scrapping its draconian gun laws than I, but that doesn't change the fact that this particular incident had less chance to be stopped if the CC (or OC) laws were relaxed than almost any other shooting spree I can think of.

All I'm saying is there's an argument to be had about how wrong CA's gun laws are, but saying that this wouldn't have happened, or might've been stopped during it, if only they had wide-open access to carry in public just isn't credible at all to anyone who's really tried to evaluate how it all went down. At least not to anyone who doesn't believe that CC'ers are endowed with some kind of super-powers simply by virtue of getting permission from their government to carry in certain places, or at all for that matter.

Blues

 

[dogshawred]

Law-abiding citizens with guns aren't the answer to all violent crime. As I understand it, most of the gunfire came from his car, and most of those rounds were fired while the car was moving. I don't know about anybody else, but the stars would have to align such as never before in history before I'd take a shot at the driver of a moving car with gunfire coming out of it on busy streets. Looking around, there are no time-lines available that I could find that gives actual times at certain locations where he did exit his car, but it sounds like it was mere seconds and that most of his rounds were fired while moving.

My belief is that this has nothing to do with law-abiding citizens carrying guns at all. Just gotta chalk this one up to a mentally ill young man who went off the rails. That's the long and the short of it. No background checks that don't severely infringe on all the rights of the citizens of America would have stopped it, and no super-hero, Johnny-on-the-spot CC'er or OC'er would have likely had any influence on it. Sometimes it just boils down to sh!t happens. This is one of those times. You don't have to support or have any tolerance for the idiotic gun free zones laws in this country in order to come to that conclusion. You just have to look at what happened and admit that none of us could've done a damned thing to stop it if we were there.

Blues

Blues, I agree with you whole heartedly regarding take pot shots at a vehicle moving through a populated neighborhood.
~
There was a reported incident of him trying to gain entrance to a sorority house and being unsuccessful, the house where the two girls were killed on the front lawn. Accordingly this is the only time he left his vehicle and would still have been tricky getting a clean shot in such a populated neighborhood.
~
Link Removed
~
"County Sheriff Bill Brown told reporters Rodger had tried to get into a college sorority house during Friday's night attack, and that women inside had heard "loud, aggressive knocking" for several minutes. Unable to gain access, police said he then shot three young women outside the building, killing Veronika Weiss, 19, and Katie Cooper, 22."
~
This one of those incidents that can NOT be defended against without a mental health system that is willing to not label people to give them help. A system that is supported by insurance companies so people can get help, so they don't have to consider going bankrupt to get help. Then a system that will participate properly with notification to the background check system for restricted access to firearms purchases. This list of needed interventions can go on forever resulting in Big Brother being control of everything (which is not what we need). The reality of it all is the need for a societal change in the raising of future generations keeping them aligned with knowing what is right and wrong and their having the willingness to be responsible to their fellow man for their actions every day. Good luck with that.

 

[Firefighterchen]

I tend to disagree with *FACT: Criminals choose soft targets.
If your looking to rob a store then Yes, But, if you looking to shoot someone, then generally they tend to go where the people they want to shoot are rather than targeting a soft target.
Shootings, more times than not are done by choice. Shooter shows up at location of fight, friction, firing, family and so on.
Just My Humble Opinion.

More tom the point, Gun Free Zones in ALMOST every case is a bad idea.

The recent mass murders chose not only where people would be, but unarmed people. They still choose soft targets, just where there are a lot of them.

Sent from my HTCONE using USA Carry mobile app

 

[Kramer1113]

The recent mass murders chose not only where people would be, but unarmed people. They still choose soft targets, just where there are a lot of them.

Sent from my HTCONE using USA Carry mobile app

Recent means nothing. Majority means everything. Recent only comes into play when the "Recent Trend" becomes a majority.

 

[Firefighterchen]

Recent means nothing. Majority means everything. Recent only comes into play when the "Recent Trend" becomes a majority.

The majority, including the recent mass murders, of shootings one party is unarmed, meaning they still choose soft targets.

Sent from my HTCONE using USA Carry mobile app

 

[chilipeppernorm]

Law-abiding citizens with guns aren't the answer to all violent crime. As I understand it, most of the gunfire came from his car, and most of those rounds were fired while the car was moving. I don't know about anybody else, but the stars would have to align such as never before in history before I'd take a shot at the driver of a moving car with gunfire coming out of it on busy streets. Looking around, there are no time-lines available that I could find that gives actual times at certain locations where he did exit his car, but it sounds like it was mere seconds and that most of his rounds were fired while moving.

My belief is that this has nothing to do with law-abiding citizens carrying guns at all. Just gotta chalk this one up to a mentally ill young man who went off the rails. That's the long and the short of it. No background checks that don't severely infringe on all the rights of the citizens of America would have stopped it, and no super-hero, Johnny-on-the-spot CC'er or OC'er would have likely had any influence on it. Sometimes it just boils down to sh!t happens. This is one of those times. You don't have to support or have any tolerance for the idiotic gun free zones laws in this country in order to come to that conclusion. You just have to look at what happened and admit that none of us could've done a damned thing to stop it if we were there.

Blues

Blues summed it up in total, and I'm in agreement and have nothing to add. You can't fix stupid, and it's almost impossible to stop crazy.