Encounter with State Police and K9 Today WOW

[TruckTurner68]

Agreed Nj is the arm pit of America. (former 20 year resident)

 

[titaniumman]

Trophyhunter..It seems that you and the police don't interact very nicely! I will take this as a lesson learned. And for all the people jumping on your back for the way you handled things..They need to lighten up. First off you were with your family, children included and you were IMMEDIATELY put on the spot. There was no warning, no flashing lights, no time to think. It is easy to sit here behind the keyboard and say....I would have done this or that, however I think they couldn't know their reaction unless it happend to them. Bottom line is you left with your meds and your weapon, along with your family, Not in a police cruiser. I can imagine this all took place in a matter of moments.

 

[Treo]

All these “Generic Bad experience W/ A Cop” threads would come to a screeching halt is we just followed some simple rules
1. If you are pulled over by ( or otherwise interact W/ ) a cop, unless you are legally required to do so or you know (I.E. If you are about to get patted down he's going to find your weapon) do not inform the cop that you are armed (this assumes you are, of course, legally armed)

2. Make the cop tell you why he pulled you over (I.E. Do you know why I pulled you over tonight Mr. Potential detainee? “No Officer I haven’t a clue please tell me.

3. When he tells you why he pulled you over do not argue (I.E. Ok officer I’ll take my ticket now”) You can fight it in court later.

4. Never ever, ever, ever consent to a search. Ever. If they tell you they’ll get a warrant tell them to go for it.

5. Under no circumstances answer questions or make a statement of any kind with out your lawyer present.

6. A traffic stop’s a given, they pull you over you're not free to go. Other than that as soon as they contact you ask. If they say you are free to go, go if they say you’re not ask for your lawyer and shut up.

7. Never make small talk with a cop (I.E. ‘where are you coming from tonight Mr. Potential detainee?’ “From conducting my lawful private business officer, am I free to go?”). Cops don’t make small talk. If you talk to a cop long enough you will say something he can use against you

8. Never willingly place yourself in a position to interact w/ the police

Follow these simple rules every time you interact with a cop and we won’t have anymore of these threads I promise

 

[localgirl]

Well, yes, G. Officers seem to be quite afraid of civilians with firearms. And we've already established that most police do not have more than a cursory knowledge of the laws they enforce, which is both befuddling and frightening.

 

[cleveland]

Nice post Treo!

Here is a nice video for those that think he is being to stand of-ish. Remember, the cops job is to seek out bad guys. What's more, bad guys tend to look just like good guys. The ones that are not in prison at least.

Link Removed

 

[cmontrose1]

After 2 surgeries and 10 years of pain I find myself being prescribed narcotics to be taken 5-6 times a day. Being on them for so long the effects have all but left. I can function completely normal as verified by my doctor. I am 39 and have to use a cane to walk around. If not on my meds then I can not walk. If anyone needs a weapon to even the playing field it definately is the disabled. Talk about easy targets. While elevating your awareness level does help, nothing I can do will take the target off my back from anyone looking for an easy mark. I have and will continue to carry concealed as I feel it is my only chance to stop a determined attacker.
PS. Taking someone in for a piss test is really a bunch of BS. The test doesn't tell when you have taken the medication, only that you have taken it. So if you were not taking your meds while carrying, the test would have burried you, showing a positive result because you took it the previous night or whenever.

 

[trophyhunter]

Titaniumman, thank you , and yes this was an split second situation plus I was holding my 4 year old. I did what I thought was in the best interest of m myself and, my children. Plus there is nothing wrong with Intereacting with LEOs and I'm not remotely concerned with stupid comments this was meant as an education purposes to heighten our awareness on perscription meds and CCW ing but thank you for your support

 

[NavyLCDR]

I don't have any problems with trophyhunter's actions at the time of the incident. What I have a problem with is the attitude that trophyhunter is at all to blame for what happened to begin with. He did nothing wrong. The police treated him like a criminal in front of his family. It is the police officers' actions that are unacceptable not trophyhunter's.

 

[-06]

By N.C. Law if you have a contact with a LEO you are supposed to inform them that you are carrying and present your card if asked. LEOs are constantly exposed to the worst that society has to offer and they assume that you are the same till proven different. When the dog "hit" your bag their "antennas" started quivering. For all they knew you could have been a dealer with a hair trigger and an itch to kill anything with a badge. We have to look at their side of the picture also. We do not like their attitude but they want to go home to their families just like we do. Once you are proven to be not a threat the attitude changes--at least that is my experience. Often "smokeys" and I BS after meeting.

 

[NavyLCDR]

We have to look at their side of the picture also. We do not like their attitude but they want to go home to their families just like we do. Once you are proven to be not a threat the attitude changes--at least that is my experience. Often "smokeys" and I BS after meeting.

That does not give them license to violate the 4th Amendment. Garbage collectors, fishermen and farmers have a higher death rate per capita than police officers do... so does that mean that they have more license to violate the 4th Amendment than police officers or office workers? Heck, garbage collectors, fishermen and farmers are not even sworn to uphold the Constitution of the US, so they should have completely free reign then, right? Garbage collectors, fishermen and farmers just want to go home to their families at night, and they are in more dangerous occupations than police officers!

The Constitution was written to protect all person lawfully present in the United States as either citizens or legal residents. The Constitution was not written to protect police or the government. If a police officer can't deal with that fact, then they should choose a different occupation.

 

[Lakeland Man]

Garbage collectors, fishermen and farmers have a higher death rate per capita than police officers do... so does that mean that they have more license to violate the 4th Amendment than police officers or office workers? Heck, garbage collectors, fishermen and farmers are not even sworn to uphold the Constitution of the US, so they should have completely free reign then, right? Garbage collectors, fishermen and farmers just want to go home to their families at night, and they are in more dangerous occupations than police officers!

What exactly kills all these garbage men, fishermen, and farmers? Is it an accidental death, a death due to negligence, or a scumbag criminal with a gun? I'm sorry, but it seems like you're comparing apples to mufflers. Personally, I haven't heard of any gang members shooting up Farmer John and taking his tomatoes by force. For that matter, I would venture to say that Astronauts have a higher death rate percentage wise than most professions. But They don't have the contact with the criminal element that Police Officers do. Neither do garbage men, fishermen, or farmers.

I agree that nobody has the authority to violate our 4th amendment rights. However, the OP gave consent. When he did that, there was no violation.

 

[Fisck]

Fist off, for what it matters, in my opinion you handled it very well Trophyhunter, I don’t think with all things being equal I could have handled it better. Was there a better way to handle it? Of course and we can sit here and armchair quarterback all day and night to come up with what you “should have done”, but for being put on the spot I don’t think many could have handled it better. That being said, don’t beat yourself up, I don’t think having medication with you that you can’t take while carrying, is a good idea. (At least while you are carrying.) But everyone makes mistakes.

As for avoiding the police? I’m not going to go talk to every random cop I run across, but actively trying to avoid them isn’t something I’m going to do. If I’m eating at a waffle house and one sets next to me, I’m going to have a few friendly words. If I go into a Duncan Doughnuts for a box and a state is setting there eating from a box, (this really happened:lol then I might say hello but I’m not going to strike up a conversation.

Also I am completely of the mindset that you don’t let people walk all over you, even police. But there seems to be a lot of people that ether want to look a lot tougher than they are (and they are all talk on here) or that enjoy being confrontational. Being polite, but not letting them walk all over you will save you a lot of trouble in the long run. Can you be an ass to the cops and get away with it if you’re in the right? Sure, but they can be as big an ass and then you have to pay for a lawyer to deal with proving you were in the right. A buddy of mine back in high school learned the hard way that being an ass normally don’t work to your advantage. He w and another friend ran off and were picked up. Buddy 2 did as told and didn’t smart off, buddy 1 wanted to be an ass, and in doing so they decided needed to be more thoroughly searched. While he doesn’t let cops walk all over him, he has learned that if you’re an ass, they’re going to search yours.:biggrin:

I'd like to point out cops have a hard job and I have the utmost respect for the honest and devoted ones. Our guys over here in Afghanistan are always catching crap for treating the locals and Afghany military like we don’t trust them. (we don't) The fact is if we drop our guard with the wrong one just once it’s over. So I have some understanding and patience with the police being weary.

 

[Deanimator]

I'd like to point out cops have a hard job and I have the utmost respect for the honest and devoted ones. Our guys over here in Afghanistan are always catching crap for treating the locals and Afghany military like we don’t trust them. (we don't) The fact is if we drop our guard with the wrong one just once it’s over. So I have some understanding and patience with the police being weary.

Being from Chicago, I have the same general feeling regarding police.

I don't have to be rude, but until it's EARNED, I owe no random cop my TRUST. NOT trusting the police costs you nothing. Trusting the wrong cop could cost you EVERYTHING.

I have zero interest in interacting with the police. To that end, I avoid people, places and activities which attract their attention. If I'm UNABLE to avoid contact with the police, it's 100% strictly by the book, polite but not friendly, and no more information will be provided than is REQUIRED by law. I wouldn't have a friendly conversation with a baker who stopped me against my will. The same thing applies to the police.

 

[NavyLCDR]

I agree that nobody has the authority to violate our 4th amendment rights. However, the OP gave consent. When he did that, there was no violation.

I absolutely agree. I just feel like it's important to discuss the rights that citizens have to not waive your rights just because a person with a badge and uniform asks you to. It's important to remember that police have no more (or less) rights than Joe Citizen does. They only have more authority, and that authority is limited, especially under conditions where there is no Reasonable Articulable Suspicion of a crime being committed.

In our case here, for example, once the officer verified that the dog alerted to prescription drugs in the lawful possession of the rightful owner - absent any behavior to indicate the subject was behaving under the influence of a narcotic or alcohol while in possession of a firearm - his authority over the subject ended. After that it becomes completely voluntary on the subject's part whether or not they continue to interact with the police offcer.

 

[Doc Mustang]

It concerns me that the police would have asked you to provide urine. A positive test merely means that the urine was obtained within 3 days of the last time opiates were consumed. It would not have provided difinitive evidence of carrying under the influence. Even a serum (blood) test would not have provided definitive proof.

State laws vary but I know I have treated patients who regularly drive, operate heavy machinery and other activities while on narcotic medication. The true warning is "Do not drive or operate heavy machinery until you know how this drug will effect you" I do not suggest going out and taking pain pills and driving immediately, but it should be remembered that folks take this medication for severe pain, which can be more debilitating than any medication.

Proper use of narcotic medications, relieves pain without producing symptoms of intoxication or impaired judgement. This is not to say that these medications are not abused, they often are, but that is a problem for a medical professional and not law enforcement unless visible signs of intoxication or overdose are present.

 

[trophyhunter]

Let me say this to all, that will and are responding to my post. I will not avoid Interreacting with Leo's because I carry concealed. This is not how Responcable or,Legal Citizens should act. I'm sure there are good and bad Officers Just like there are good and bad Citizens. Leo's have a tough enough job dealing with the scum of the world. I do not blame them for acting in a cautious manner. I agree,That they should not step on our Constitutional Rights. As I read allot of post on this and, other forums
I see allot of Open and, Concealed Carriers Refusing to work with Leo's even on simple request Such as, Requesting to see your Idenification. Please someone clear that up for me. Why is showing Id. wrong? or answering questions if asked. 3 out of 4 of my Children have Graduated from Dare Programs in thier Schools.( Drug Awareness Resistance Education) and in doing so have Learned in General that Most Leo's are good guys and are here to help. I also have Educated my children with regaurds on dealings with Leo's So, On that day when my children seen the State Police giving a outdoor seminar on Dare they wanted to go over there and watch. I knew I was Concealed Carrying and It did'nt bother me in the least. What I forgot about was I had my Pain Medication with me. When the dog hit on my bag I remembered but by then it was to late. I feel that both myself and, the Troopers could of handled the situation a little better. But that Incounter will not change my opionion of Leo's. I will at any time still Intereact with any Leo.Just think how that situation could of played out with all those Children and, Families If I happened to be a Convicted Felon.Thats how something could get Ugly real quick, I know some of you will not agree with me on this and some of you will. But, these are my opionions. I know now, That I should of been a little more careful on my wording from original and future post's but it does not, Change my feelings on Intereacting with Leo's.

 

[Deanimator]

I know now, That I should of been a little more careful on my wording from original and future post's but it does not, Change my feelings on Intereacting with Leo's.

That's your choice. Some of us have been around and seen enough to make a very DIFFERENT choice.

There's simply no GOOD reason for me to voluntarily interact with police apart from reporting my own lawful use of force after the fact, or to report a crime which I have no authority to address or which would be imprudent for me to address on my own. In no case do I expect them to "protect" me, and in virtually no case WILL they. When it comes to "protection", you're strictly on your own, be it from somebody with a knife or a gun, or a cop who's ignorant or contemptuous of the law.

I have no idea of what percentages of cops are "good" or "bad", or even whether they're "good" or "bad" ALL of the time. Trusting ALL of them is like picking up hitchhikers. I don't do it, not because all hitchhikers are serial killers, but because SOME of them are and to the best of my knowledge there's no Android app that will ID them. Likewise, there are bad cops, some of them VERY bad. Until you can tell me how to ID them without them victimizing myself or someone else, trusting strange cops is completely off the table. I go with 100% by the book, because it's 100% LEGAL. Know the law. Obey the law. And don't let ANYBODY do you differently, citizen OR cop.

 

[NavyLCDR]

I see allot of Open and, Concealed Carriers Refusing to work with Leo's even on simple request Such as, Requesting to see your Idenification. Please someone clear that up for me. Why is showing Id. wrong? or answering questions if asked.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with showing your ID or answering their questions. That choice is a personal choice that you have to make for yourself in each circumstance as it comes up.

What some of us try to do is educate people to let them know that they do have a choice.

My personal choice is that I will not allow any LEO to investigate me in any manner when I have acted in no way suspicious of breaking a law (except for security clearances, volunteer background checks, etc). I even refused to join a local gun range because they insisted on doing their own background check even though I have a concealed pistol license and a military security clearance.

Also, part of my personal choice is that I feel if I submit to a police officer's investigation for the sole reason that I am carrying a gun, I feel that I am giving the message to both that officer and to the public that may be watching that somehow the mere act of carrying a gun warrants suspicion and investigation. That's just my own personal feeling on it.

In you situation, trophyhunter, I absolutely would have cooperated with the officers after the dog hit on the backpack. I would have showed him the prescription bottle and ID. Then I would have attempted to terminate the interaction with the LEO. I don't feel like you did anything wrong, either in the circumstances that led up to the incident, or in your handling of the incident. And since you consented to every action on the officer's part, they, legally, did nothing wrong.

But, my question is this...after they verified that drugs were prescription and you were in legal possession of them, did you know or feel that you could then end the encounter and walk away because after that they had no other reason to suspect any crime had been committed?

 

[Treo]

What I forgot about was I had my Pain Medication with me. When the dog hit on my bag I remembered but by then it was too late.

That, right there is the answer to your question about why so many of us reccomend caution when dealing w/ cops.

 

[tommy62]

As a retired LEO with over 25 years of service in the arm pit of this country New Jersey I can only question why you said anything about your weapon. Unless you were in a state where it was mandatory for you to tell them then keep your mouth shut. I am on pain meds. every day to the tune of 90 miligrams of Morphine and 3600 miligrams of gebapentan. I function just as clear headed as I did without the meds. but without pain. Unless asked keep quiet and you should not have any problem.
Bill

I'm sorry for your medical problems and I do understand the need for legitimate use of pain medications. However, the statement about taking 90 mg of Morphine and functioning clear headed is without merit in the eyes of the law and just plain common sense. If you are in an accident or discharge a firearm and are drug tested, you will be charged with being impaired.