Do you still conceal carry into posted "No Carry" businesses?
- Thread starter HappeScrapn
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Nail Clippers:
Even if an item is generally permitted, it may be subject to additional screening or not allowed through the checkpoint if it triggers an alarm during the screening process, appears to have been tampered with, or poses other security concerns. The final decision rests with TSA on whether to allow any items on the plane.
Knitting Needles:
Even if an item is generally permitted, it may be subject to additional screening or not allowed through the checkpoint if it triggers an alarm during the screening process, appears to have been tampered with, or poses other security concerns. The final decision rests with TSA on whether to allow any items on the plane.
See anything common there? Kind of like telling a cop that you have a gun during a traffic stop. Some will say "Thank you for telling me." Others will yank you out of the car, put you on the ground and handcuff you while they search the front seat area.
GaryBLarry
New member
It is very rare that I see a no carry sign, but I always walk the other way if I see one. I don't want to support businesses that doesn't support the 2nd amendment.
B
Bikenut
Guest
Food for thought....
There is a discussion about trespass law in Michigan and how the trespass law might affect someone carrying in violation of a "no firearms" sign or rule. Plus an attorney makes mention in post #6 of possibly losing the castle doctrine protections if one must protect themselves while trespassing.(must register to read the discussion)
Michigan Gun Owners Community Forum
And the law itself does not specify what constitutes as being "forbidden to do so by the owner"...
Michigan Legislature - Section 750.552
THE MICHIGAN PENAL CODE (EXCERPT)
Act 328 of 1931
750.552 Trespass upon lands or premises of another; exception; violation; penalty; "process server" defined.
Sec. 552.
(1) Except as otherwise provided in subsection (2), a person shall not do any of the following:
(a) Enter the lands or premises of another without lawful authority after having been forbidden to do so by the owner or occupant or the agent of the owner or occupant.
(b) Remain without lawful authority on the land or premises of another after being notified to depart by the owner or occupant or the agent of the owner or occupant. -snip-
Please note that there are separate sections that deal with ... enter... and .... remain. And there isn't any definition of what constitutes "been forbidden" or "notified" so a sign or list of rules can/could still qualify as "been forbidden" and/or "notified".
To me, and I'm not an attorney, it appears that entering after being notified by "no trespassing" or "no guns" signs that entry is forbidden would be trespassing by entering without the authority of the owner.
But remaining would also be trespassing by refusing to leave after being notified to depart.
And ... entering... and ... remaining... are both trespass but covered separately in the trespass law.
Rhino
New member
Yeah. It's a 'catch all' that has nothing to do with any particular item. You get the same response when you enter "tampons" or "marshmallows." It has nothing whatsoever to do with nail clippers or knitting needles.
Peggy Reist
New member
Kansas is the same, so for the most part, that's what I do too. The exception is where they have metal detectors.
Va_Glocker
New member
Maybe a crazy question but I wanted to hear what some of you think and/or do about this. Do any of you still carry into a business that has a "No Handguns" sign posted?
I personally always want to follow the laws. I would never want to jeopardize loosing my permit nor give conceal carry holders a bad name. There are enough people looking for any excise to take our guns away.
However, some business that are posted I just don't agree withlike say The Movie Theater. There was a little small no handguns sign that I had to actually look hard for on the side window of the ticket booth. Not on the front window of the booth and not on any of the doors but on the side window right next to the "no cell phone" sign (yea right, no cell phone). I almost missed the stupid no gun sign.
I took my gun back to my truck and went to see the movie anyway. Before I left, I actually talked to the Manager after the movies and brought up the question as to what would happen to someone who brought their CC weapon in even thought it was posted not to. Then come some crazy person, mad at the world with his gun and starts shooting. That make the CC holder have to pull their weapon to protect people and or themselves. The "bad guy" was shot, hurt and/or killed. Would they press charges against the CC holder for bringing their weapon in when they had a no handgun policy or would they overlook the fact the carried CC holder saved lives and or their own life.
The manager said "Good question, I'll have to ask my boss and see what they say." I haven't heard back yet. Go figure, but I'm going to push it and see what kind of answer they come up with.
What do you do? Carry in anyway? Put your weapon back in the car and go in? Just don't do business with them and go somewhere else that allows you to carry?
Have a blessed evening!
HappeScrapn
I usually don't enter inside such businesses. It has never happened though... but, if a situation arises that I have to enter, then I will with my cc firearm.
Mainly, because you shouldn't leave your firearm unattended inside your vehicle... period.
If during such a time your above scenario arises, I wouldn't shoot the 'bad guy'.
Yes, call it (please don't judge me) anything, but, I prefer to not get embroiled in lawsuits from the business & the 'bad guy'... life's too short to help out and get into such legal trouble.
Nightmare45
NRA LIFE MEMBER
I take my money where they like the 2nd.
Axeanda45
Banned
I take my money everywhere, just like my firearms....
People say concealed is concealed. That signs carrying no weight and they have to ask you to leave. However in some states, ignoring a sign could be considered defiant trespass. Not a firearms violation, but still a legal violation.
Keep in mind the possible impact this could have if you have to use your firearm in self defense.
In Pennsylvania, we have the castle doctrine which applies outside you home. Essentially allowing stand your ground.
Ignoring a sign could mean you are in defiant trespass there by you not covered by the PA castle doctrine.
From one of the interpretations of the PA castle doctrine:
Outside a dwelling, residence or occupied vehicle, the Castle Doctrine legislation eliminates the duty to retreat and a person can “stand his ground and use force,” including deadly force,
in self defense, if all of the following apply:
•the person has a right to be in the place he/she was attacked
You are in defiant trespass so you do not have the right to be there. So the protections under PA castle doctrine does not apply.
Keep in mind the possible impact this could have if you have to use your firearm in self defense.
In Pennsylvania, we have the castle doctrine which applies outside you home. Essentially allowing stand your ground.
Ignoring a sign could mean you are in defiant trespass there by you not covered by the PA castle doctrine.
From one of the interpretations of the PA castle doctrine:
Outside a dwelling, residence or occupied vehicle, the Castle Doctrine legislation eliminates the duty to retreat and a person can “stand his ground and use force,” including deadly force,
in self defense, if all of the following apply:
•the person has a right to be in the place he/she was attacked
You are in defiant trespass so you do not have the right to be there. So the protections under PA castle doctrine does not apply.
Blueshell
Banned
That's a solid argument for banning no-gun signs.
B
Bikenut
Guest
In Michigan the trespass law states:
Michigan Legislature - Section 750.552
THE MICHIGAN PENAL CODE (EXCERPT)
Act 328 of 1931
750.552 Trespass upon lands or premises of another; exception; violation; penalty; "process server" defined.
Sec. 552.
(1) Except as otherwise provided in subsection (2), a person shall not do any of the following:
(a) Enter the lands or premises of another without lawful authority after having been forbidden to do so by the owner or occupant or the agent of the owner or occupant.
(b) Remain without lawful authority on the land or premises of another after being notified to depart by the owner or occupant or the agent of the owner or occupant.
-snip-
Bold added by me for emphasis...
The interesting thing is there isn't any mention of what specifically constitutes as "having been forbidden to do so" and there has been many a discussion as to whether or not a prosecutor could consider a "no guns" sign as those who carry guns have been forbidden to enter.
And while many folks rely on section (b) as requiring to be asked to leave before being arrested for trespass the law says (at least to me but I'm not an attorney) that "enter" and "remain" are two specifically different aspects of the trespass law. Meaning entering while having been forbidden to do so by a "no guns" sign is trespass... and remaining after being asked to leave is also trespass.... but both are trespass.
I would be very interested in hearing a Michigan attorney's take on that. But in the meantime my understanding is just entering a business with a no guns rule/sign is trespass according to Michigan law.
I also try to bypass non friendly establishments. I recently moved back to Texas and have found it far more cc friendly than Nebraska was. So far the only places I haven't carried into were law enforcement offices, VA facilities and banks. every place else I carry. I don't think I've seen any signs in the area where I live. The Governor just signed the open carry law this past week. We expect it to be in effect by Jan 01, 2016. I only open carry while in wilderness areas. I don't see any sense in fanning the flames with the anti-gun idiots. Our illustrious "Terrorist in Charge" sure took the opportunity to get some barbs in while speaking about the S.C. church shooting. He'll jump on any means of spilling his vitriol he can, regardless of the occasion.
I'm not willing to give up the advantages of open carry (where I live) over concealed carry just to please the anti-gun idiots. I'm also not willing to allow them to control my decisions.
Axeanda45
Banned
WHY dont you carry in banks????
Cumberland
New member
Just returned from Baltimore & DC. I'm glad to be back in the Freer states. Baltimore has the Highest Murder rate in the country right now. I didn't really leave the inner harbor area, but did carry by KaBar. We were still approached by one group of three, and another transient beggar. My two carry firearms was with me, but in car and hotel room. 90% of the time was spent within harbor front hotel property. CC was resumed by first rest area coming back.
I've never had a issue cc in banks. I do see the signs at hospitals, but are ignored
I've never had a issue cc in banks. I do see the signs at hospitals, but are ignored
Cumberland
New member
Do you still conceal carry into posted "No Carry" businesses?
Dbl post
Dbl post
This. Why is it so hard to understand?
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