Do you still conceal carry into posted "No Carry" businesses?

[Bikenut]

Originally Posted by Bikenut View Post
Yes I do refer to the anti gunner simply because the anti gunner has the same attitude towards the right to keep and bear arms as you, and some others, have towards private property rights.

So, this is your answer? Foolishly hoping and assuming that if we respect their gun free zones that they'll lay off the entire anti-gun agenda?...lol. Wow.


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Nope. I didn't say any such thing.

I guess I will have to spell it out.

I am saying that those who have the attitude that the private property rights of others are not valid, make no sense, and are "dumb" are using the same thinking as the anti gunners who think the right to keep and bear arms is not valid, makes no sense, and is dumb. Both want to pick and choose which rights should not be allowed.

 

[snatale42]

Don't forget the violation happens by being on/in private property without permission NOT when asked to leave. Asked to leave means you were caught on/in private property without permission (trespassing).

You know theirs 50 states in this country and they don't all have the same laws right? Here in VA signs do NOT have force of law and you MUST be asked to leave and refuse before your trespassing and ignoring a sign doesn't make you guilty of a gun crime.

Nice try but still a fail........ I heard that somewhere.....

 

[Inger19]

Stores are as much private property as your house. The only difference is the property owner has invited in those members of the public who agree to his terms of use (rules) and bans those who do not agree.

Just because a store is open to the public does not mean it is no longer private property. Again, "open to the public" really means "open to those individual members of the public who agree to abide by the property owner's rules" and the property is closed to those members of the public who do not abide by those rules. It also means if you are caught ... sneaking... a gun into/onto the private property of a store with a no guns rule/policy you will be thrown out and the store is now closed to you while it remains "open to the public".

Let's try it this way, Bikenut. Say you own a bakery business, and you specialize in wedding cakes. Can you refuse, in your open to the public bakery, to bake wedding cakes for gay couples?


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[corneileous]

Nope. I didn't say any such thing.

Didn't say you did. In all actuality, I was just asking if that was what you meant.

I guess I will have to spell it out.

I am saying that those who have the attitude that the private property rights of others are not valid, make no sense, and are "dumb" are using the same thinking as the anti gunners who think the right to keep and bear arms is not valid, makes no sense, and is dumb.
For the record, I'm not opposed to all property rights like you keep wording your posts to make me out to sound as if I am. I just have a problem with their logic of thinking that their "robbers welcome" signs will keep the true criminals out and that they don't rely on real means to enforce it.

Both want to pick and choose which rights should not be allowed.

Isn't that what it's all about? We vote to allow which "rights" we have.


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[Bikenut]

Originally Posted by Bikenut View Post
Don't forget the violation happens by being on/in private property without permission NOT when asked to leave. Asked to leave means you were caught on/in private property without permission (trespassing).

You know theirs 50 states in this country and they don't all have the same laws right? Here in VA signs do NOT have force of law and you MUST be asked to leave and refuse before your trespassing and ignoring a sign doesn't make you guilty of a gun crime.

Nice try but still a fail........ I heard that somewhere.....

You do understand that there are other crimes than just a gun crime? Like trespass?

You do know there is a difference between engaging in the act of trespass, getting caught in the act of trespass, and suffering legal penalties for the act of trespass?

If you are carrying a gun into/onto private property that has a no guns rule/policy you are already trespassing because you do not have the owner's permission to be there.

If the owner asks you to leave you just got caught already trespassing.

Whether or not you suffer legal penalties for trespassing depends on the laws of your State.

Now what was that about a fail?

 

[Bikenut]

Originally Posted by Bikenut View Post
Stores are as much private property as your house. The only difference is the property owner has invited in those members of the public who agree to his terms of use (rules) and bans those who do not agree.

Just because a store is open to the public does not mean it is no longer private property. Again, "open to the public" really means "open to those individual members of the public who agree to abide by the property owner's rules" and the property is closed to those members of the public who do not abide by those rules. It also means if you are caught ... sneaking... a gun into/onto the private property of a store with a no guns rule/policy you will be thrown out and the store is now closed to you while it remains "open to the public".

Let's try it this way, Bikenut. Say you own a bakery business, and you specialize in wedding cakes. Can you refuse, in your open to the public bakery, to bake wedding cakes for gay couples?


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Just like gun control laws are infringements upon the right to keep and bear arms there are infringements upon the private property right to refuse service and all those protected classes of people are exactly that.. infringements.

But gun carriers are NOT one of those protected classes of people.

 

[corneileous]

You know theirs 50 states in this country and they don't all have the same laws right? Here in VA signs do NOT have force of law and you MUST be asked to leave and refuse before your trespassing and ignoring a sign doesn't make you guilty of a gun crime.

Nice try but still a fail........ I heard that somewhere.....

Exactly. Oklahoma, thankfully, is the same way.

If I have to go in somewhere local, without putting a bunch of miles on my vehicle and waste gas to go extremely out of my way to find a gun friendly store, I'll gladly take my chances if the store owner still wants to press a trespassing charge on me after I've diffused a "problem".


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[corneileous]

Let's try it this way, Bikenut. Say you own a bakery business, and you specialize in wedding cakes. Can you refuse, in your open to the public bakery, to bake wedding cakes for gay couples?


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Didn't the person that actually did that get the shaft pretty bad?


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[Bikenut]

-snip-

Originally posted by Bikenut:
Both want to pick and choose which rights should not be allowed.

Isn't that what it's all about? We vote to allow which "rights" we have.


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No. We don't vote on rights we have. We always have our rights. It is our representatives who pass restrictive laws that infringe upon those rights and activist courts that render legal decisions that infringe upon our rights. We, you/me/everyone, have very little to say about it unless we want to challenge those laws/court decisions.

 

[corneileous]

Do you still conceal carry into posted "No Carry" businesses?

But gun carriers are NOT one of those protected classes of people.

Its too bad that the ones doing it for protection are treated the same as the ones who do it to inflict harm and steal.



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[corneileous]

No. We don't vote on rights we have. We always have our rights. It is our representatives who pass restrictive laws that infringe upon those rights and activist courts that render legal decisions that infringe upon our rights. We, you/me/everyone, have very little to say about it unless we want to challenge those laws/court decisions.

Rights change all the time. Matter of fact, just recently, gay and lesbian couples all the sudden have the right to marry.


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[corneileous]

All the sudden also, marijuana was illegal. Now it's a right in some states.


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[Bikenut]

All the sudden also, marijuana was illegal. Now it's a right in some states.


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I am aware some States have made the use of marijuana legal but am unaware of where it has become a right. Please provide cites and links to proof where marijuana is a right?

 

[snatale42]

You do understand that there are other crimes than just a gun crime? Like trespass?

You need to stay on topic for this thread, THIS THREAD is about carrying into businesses with no carry policies. Not YOUR moral idea of YOUR definition of what constitutes trespass.

If you are carrying a gun into/onto private property that has a not guns rule/policy you are already trespassing because you do not have the owner's permission to be there.

Again, different states different laws. The definition of trespass is NOT the same in all states. In my state I CAN NOT be considered a trespasser simply because I'm carrying while ignoring a sign unless I'm asked to leave and I refuse.

If the owner asks you to leave you just got caught already trespassing.

No, I would have gotten caught breaking his rules, not the same

Whether or not you suffer legal penalties for trespassing depends on the laws of your State.

No it doesn't, because trespassing is illegal everywhere. Whats CONSIDERED trespassing is what changes and that what your choosing not to address.

Now what was that about a fail?

My point stands

 

[Bikenut]

Rights change all the time. Matter of fact, just recently, gay and lesbian couples all the sudden have the right to marry.


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Do they have the right to marry or has marriage between same sex individuals only become legal? Please provide cites and links to where gay and lesbian marriage is a right.

 

[Inger19]

Didn't the person that actually did that get the shaft pretty bad?


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Let me try a different example. Suppose the bakery owner puts up a sign that says Muslim women may not wear hijab in the bakery. Is that his right?


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[Bikenut]

Originally Posted by Bikenut View Post
You do understand that there are other crimes than just a gun crime? Like trespass?

You need to stay on topic for this thread, THIS THREAD is about carrying into businesses with no carry policies. Not YOUR moral idea of YOUR definition of what constitutes trespass.

I'm not talking about my moral definition of trespass. I am talking about the legality of trespass.

Again, different states different laws. The definition of trespass is NOT the same in all states. In my state I CAN NOT be considered a trespasser simply because I'm carrying while ignoring a sign unless I'm asked to leave and I refuse.

In your State you cannot be punished for trespassing until you are asked to leave and refuse. But being asked to leave means you got caught in the act of trespassing.

No it doesn't, because trespassing is illegal everywhere. Whats CONSIDERED trespassing is what changes and that what your choosing not to address.

Trespass is the same everywhere and the definition of trespass is:

http:http://definitions.uslegal.com/t/trespass///

Trespass Law & Legal Definition

Trespass is entering another person's property without permission of the owner or legal authority. -snip-

If a business has a no guns rule/policy then those who carry guns do not have permission to enter.

What changes from State to State is how and when punishment for trespassing occurs.

 

[Bikenut]

Let me try a different example. Suppose the bakery owner puts up a sign that says Muslim women may not wear hijab in the bakery. Is that his right?


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Again.... religion is a protected class. But gun owners/carriers are not.

 

[corneileous]

Do they have the right to marry or has marriage between same sex individuals only become legal? Please provide cites and links to where gay and lesbian marriage is a right.

Ok, maybe I was wrong about being able to smoke marijuana being a right. I should have said that was more of a privilege than anything. Like driving a car. Those privileges can be revoked if you screw up. But....

I would sure think gay marriage wouldn't be the same as that. Sure sounds like a right to me.


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[Inger19]

Again.... religion is a protected class. But gun owners/carriers are not.

Freedom of religion is a right. See the First Amendment. Freedom to carry arms is also a right. See the second amendment.


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