Well, see that's the thing. People exercising their freedoms protected by the Constitution seems like something good Americans do... so by your own logic Muslims are good Americans because their exercising their freedom.
If you have to ask that question go look at yourself in a mirror and ask that same question. You act like all Muslim are not from the USA, well I hate to be the one to tell you but some are born in the USA making them US citizens. And since you want to bring religion into it, I ask Can Christians be good Americans?
Then try to explain why Christians make better Americans then atheists? For the founders of America decided that everyone should have the right to worship whatever region they chose.
So your question makes you a bad American.
No I would say that your response make you one, Look at world history, read the federalist papers, look at Jefferson's quotes WRT Muslims I did a post on it.
Christians as do many religions tend to give their children a moral upbringing, look at the bad boys of history, broken homes, no moral upbringing, supremest parents or beliefs (golly just like ISLAM).
The constitution was based upon religious beliefs, so can a Christian be a better American than a Muslim, I would say 110% chance of that being true.
No I would say that your response make you one, Look at world history, read the federalist papers, look at Jefferson's quotes WRT Muslims I did a post on it.
Christians as do many religions tend to give their children a moral upbringing, look at the bad boys of history, broken homes, no moral upbringing, supremest parents or beliefs (golly just like ISLAM).
The constitution was based upon religious beliefs, so can a Christian be a better American than a Muslim, I would say 110% chance of that being true.
Ok, one more try...
Art. 11 of the treaty of Tripoli: As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion,—as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquility, of Mussulmen,—and as the said States never entered into any war or act of hostility against any Mahometan nation, it is declared by the parties that no pretext arising from religious opinions shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries.
Benjamin Franklin - believed in god but doubted the divinity of Jesus and from my perspective seemed rather wishy washy in his views:
"As to Jesus of Nazareth, my Opinion of whom you particularly desire, I think the System of Morals and his Religion, as he left them to us, the best the world ever saw or is likely to see; but I apprehend it has received various corrupt changes, and I have, with most of the present Dissenters in England, some Doubts as to his divinity; tho' it is a question I do not dogmatize upon, having never studied it, and I think it needless to busy myself with it now, when I expect soon an Opportunity of knowing the Truth with less Trouble...."
Oh and he stated himself in his autobiography:
"For the arguments of the Deists, which were quoted to be refuted, appeared to be much stronger than the refutations; in short, I soon became a thorough Deist."
References:
Benjamin Franklin's Autobiography, en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benjamin_Franklin#Virtue.2C_religion.2C_and_personal_beliefs
George Washington: According to historian Paul F. Boller Jr., Washington practically speaking was a Deist
References: Boller (1963), George Washington & Religion, pp. 93-100
John Adams: Adams was educated at Harvard when the influence of deism was growing there, and used deistic terms in his speeches and writing. He believed in the essential goodness of the creation, but did not believe that God intervened in the affairs of individuals, and, being a Unitarian, his beliefs excluded the divinity of Christ.
References: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Adams#Religious_views
Thomas Jefferson (I love this quote):
"Question with boldness even the existence of a god; because if there be one he must approve of the homage of reason more than that of blindfolded fear." -Thomas Jefferson, letter to Peter Carr, August 10, 1787
And:
"Where the preamble declares, that coercion is a departure from the plan of the holy author of our religion, an amendment was proposed by inserting "Jesus Christ," so that it would read "A departure from the plan of Jesus Christ, the holy author of our religion;" the insertion was rejected by the great majority, in proof that they meant to comprehend, within the mantle of its protection, the Jew and the Gentile, the Christian and Mohammedan, the Hindoo and Infidel of every denomination." -Thomas Jefferson, Autobiography, in reference to the Virginia Act for Religious Freedom
Jon Jay: Anglican
James Madison:
"We hold it for a fundamental and undeniable truth that religion, or the duty which we owe our Creator, and the manner of discharging it, can be directed only by reason and conviction, not by force or violence. The religion, then, of every man must be left to the conviction and conscience of every man: and that it is the right of every man to exercise it as these may dictate." - James Madison, Memorial and Remonstrance to the Assembly of Virginia
"Religious bondage shackles and debilitates the mind and unfits it for every noble enterprise."
"During almost fifteen centuries has the legal establishment of Christianity been on trial. What have been its fruits? More or less in all places, pride and indolence in the Clergy, ignorance and servility in the laity, in both, superstition, bigotry and persecution."
James Madison:
n his early life, he was an orthodox and conventional, though not deeply pious, Presbyterian. From 1777 to 1792, Hamilton appears to have been completely indifferent, and made jokes about God at the Constitutional Convention. During the French Revolution, he had an "opportunistic religiosity", using Christianity for political ends and insisting that Christianity and Jefferson's democracy were incompatible. After his misfortunes of 1801, Hamilton began to assert the truth of Christianity; he also proposed a Christian Constitutional Society in 1802, to take hold of "some strong feeling of the mind" to elect "fit men" to office, and he wrote of "Christian welfare societies" for the poor. He was not a member of any denomination, but led his family in the Episcopal service the Sunday before the duel. After he was shot, Hamilton requested communion first from Benjamin Moore, the Episcopal Bishop of New York, who initially declined to administer the Sacrament chiefly because he did not wish to sanction the practice of dueling. Hamilton then requested communion from Presbyterian pastor John Mason, who declined on the grounds that Presbyterians did not reserve the Sacrament. After Hamilton spoke of his belief in God's mercy, and of his desire to renounce dueling, Bishop Moore reversed his decision, and administered communion to Hamilton.
References: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexander_Hamilton#Hamilton.27s_religion
This is also a good read: America's True History of Religious Tolerance | History & Archaeology | Smithsonian Magazine
Who is in a position to decide or indicate good or bad?
By my logic they are FREE Americans. Good or bad is an indication of applied judgment. They are free to worship as they choose because of the pre-existing right to do so.
The Constitution simply provides protection against persecution, restriction, or regulation by any government entity when exercising that pre-existing right.
If their intent is to "fundamentally change" America I'll have issue with that. Be free and enjoy the fact that you are free. That is as far as your rights go. Your rights end where my rights begin.
You do cite good references that some of them were deists and actually I can accept that. Although I was raised a christian, my beliefs tend to be more of an intelligent design type, so I guess that makes me a deist as well.
The atheism is more of what I wanted you to prove, should have clipped the deist part out. But so far, good job backing up your clam.
HI:
Muslims had 4 christian people arrested in Dearborn. Because that is a threat against there religion. Is that freedom of religion. I do not think so. It took the Thomas Moore Legal Center in Ann Arbor to get them acquitted from the charges. Is that biased or what. We have to accept there religion but they do not have to accept ours. When they take over this country ladies watch out. Men have several wives. Women will no longer have any freedom.
I do not have a problem with anyone from any country coming to the US. Learn our language and customs. If anyone does not like it here than please leave the US. We should have a national fund here in the US. If you do not like it here you can get the money for air fare to leave. But you cannot ever return.
How quickly we define things through the limits of our own eyes and the convienience of historical reinterpretation. Even sixteenth century Calvinism worked with the local government without trying to overrun it. Many Biblical characters of a positive stature were failures and some were even murderers at times in their lives, but like with anything else, context is the key. It is so easy to lose context. It is so easy to lose context.
Under Sharia law, even what are presented as theologically vague, harmless Deists, would be an abomination to Islam. Maybe some Muslim groups would have some sympathy in this area, but having this come down to a proverbial throw of the dice instead of a God-given right and government protection is just too scary for me.
Freedom of religion does assume at least some of what I will cal an atheological tone, and that is not a bad thing. How strong or weak the faiths of the Founding Fathers were is somewhat irrelevant, in that they were able to look past that and create a government with limitations and protections beyond their own mindsets. And it still works!
Yes, I think it is an accurate statement that Islam is more at odds with the Constitutiion than other faiths and religions. The first amendment of the Constitution is an offense to Islam. One does not need to look far to see that.
And that intolerance of someone asking a simple question makes you a bad American. Same Same...
Some people have opinions and don't feel like they should have to be tolerant of things simply because someone else believes they should be. Freedom of choice and free will. That's what American was founded on as well. So go and be the bad American your way and let the others be bad Americans their way...
There seems to be this idea that Muslims are "invading" the US... what evidence is there of this?
I don't defend Islam, I don't defend any religion... their all bunk to me. I do defend people's right to practice the religion of their choosing so long as they do not harm or foist their religion on anyone else.
The beauty of the Constitution is that it allows for the freedoms we have. Some groups and ideologies run contrary to Constituitonal law, including Marxism and Islam. I had a coworker try to tell me that my concerns about Marxism/Socialism in this country are unfounded because there has not been, nor will there be, a physical, tangible working class revolution. I say the most effective revolution is one that happens right under everyone's noses so that people don't realize they have been fooled until it is too late. Hitler took away Germany's right to bear arms in 1933. People should be worried about 2000+ page congressional bills that are not read, regardless of party affilliation. The head of the socialist party in the 1930s said that Americans would never accept socialism unless it was disguised as "liberalism." A Socialist prophecy came true, if I may mix a few beliefs together.
Yes, there are two sides of the coin to religious freedom. Things I may disagree with are allowed, but so are the things that I do agree with. If others want to enjoy the same freedoms I have, then great. Come on over! But if others want to take away my freedoms because they run contrary to their beliefs and ideologies, then I have a problem with that. The rattlesnake is still a rattlesnake. Hard words, but true words.
The evidence you seek is in the Islamic practices around the world. Women are still stoned to death and people are still beheaded. Muslims rape non-Muslims in the Sudan, let alone all of the killing. Not all groups fall into the "extreme" category as we put it, but, correct me if I am wrong, few, or no Muslim groups speaks out against these more extreme Muslims. I say this because I believe they have the same fear of physical retaliation as do non-Muslim groups. They are afraid to speak out and have no freedom of speech, even responsible speech.
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