Can Muslims be good Americans?


Well, see that's the thing. People exercising their freedoms protected by the Constitution seems like something good Americans do... so by your own logic Muslims are good Americans because their exercising their freedom.

Who is in a position to decide or indicate good or bad?

By my logic they are FREE Americans. Good or bad is an indication of applied judgment. They are free to worship as they choose because of the pre-existing right to do so.

The Constitution simply provides protection against persecution, restriction, or regulation by any government entity when exercising that pre-existing right.

If their intent is to "fundamentally change" America I'll have issue with that. Be free and enjoy the fact that you are free. That is as far as your rights go. Your rights end where my rights begin.
 

If you have to ask that question go look at yourself in a mirror and ask that same question. You act like all Muslim are not from the USA, well I hate to be the one to tell you but some are born in the USA making them US citizens. And since you want to bring religion into it, I ask Can Christians be good Americans?

Then try to explain why Christians make better Americans then atheists? For the founders of America decided that everyone should have the right to worship whatever region they chose.

So your question makes you a bad American.

No I would say that your response make you one, Look at world history, read the federalist papers, look at Jefferson's quotes WRT Muslims I did a post on it.
Christians as do many religions tend to give their children a moral upbringing, look at the bad boys of history, broken homes, no moral upbringing, supremest parents or beliefs (golly just like ISLAM).
The constitution was based upon religious beliefs, so can a Christian be a better American than a Muslim, I would say 110% chance of that being true.
 
No I would say that your response make you one, Look at world history, read the federalist papers, look at Jefferson's quotes WRT Muslims I did a post on it.
Christians as do many religions tend to give their children a moral upbringing, look at the bad boys of history, broken homes, no moral upbringing, supremest parents or beliefs (golly just like ISLAM).
The constitution was based upon religious beliefs, so can a Christian be a better American than a Muslim, I would say 110% chance of that being true.

Um, look back at history and see all the wonderfully horrific things people did in god's name, in the name of Christianity. Some people still do.

Once you reconcile those things then we can talk about the moral superiority of Christians.
 
No I would say that your response make you one, Look at world history, read the federalist papers, look at Jefferson's quotes WRT Muslims I did a post on it.
Christians as do many religions tend to give their children a moral upbringing, look at the bad boys of history, broken homes, no moral upbringing, supremest parents or beliefs (golly just like ISLAM).
The constitution was based upon religious beliefs, so can a Christian be a better American than a Muslim, I would say 110% chance of that being true.


+1. Exactly.
 
Ok, one more try...

Art. 11 of the treaty of Tripoli: As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion,—as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquility, of Mussulmen,—and as the said States never entered into any war or act of hostility against any Mahometan nation, it is declared by the parties that no pretext arising from religious opinions shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries.

Benjamin Franklin - believed in god but doubted the divinity of Jesus and from my perspective seemed rather wishy washy in his views:

"As to Jesus of Nazareth, my Opinion of whom you particularly desire, I think the System of Morals and his Religion, as he left them to us, the best the world ever saw or is likely to see; but I apprehend it has received various corrupt changes, and I have, with most of the present Dissenters in England, some Doubts as to his divinity; tho' it is a question I do not dogmatize upon, having never studied it, and I think it needless to busy myself with it now, when I expect soon an Opportunity of knowing the Truth with less Trouble...."

Oh and he stated himself in his autobiography:

"For the arguments of the Deists, which were quoted to be refuted, appeared to be much stronger than the refutations; in short, I soon became a thorough Deist."

References:
Benjamin Franklin's Autobiography, en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benjamin_Franklin#Virtue.2C_religion.2C_and_personal_beliefs

George Washington: According to historian Paul F. Boller Jr., Washington practically speaking was a Deist

References: Boller (1963), George Washington & Religion, pp. 93-100

John Adams: Adams was educated at Harvard when the influence of deism was growing there, and used deistic terms in his speeches and writing. He believed in the essential goodness of the creation, but did not believe that God intervened in the affairs of individuals, and, being a Unitarian, his beliefs excluded the divinity of Christ.

References: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Adams#Religious_views

Thomas Jefferson (I love this quote):

"Question with boldness even the existence of a god; because if there be one he must approve of the homage of reason more than that of blindfolded fear." -Thomas Jefferson, letter to Peter Carr, August 10, 1787

And:

"Where the preamble declares, that coercion is a departure from the plan of the holy author of our religion, an amendment was proposed by inserting "Jesus Christ," so that it would read "A departure from the plan of Jesus Christ, the holy author of our religion;" the insertion was rejected by the great majority, in proof that they meant to comprehend, within the mantle of its protection, the Jew and the Gentile, the Christian and Mohammedan, the Hindoo and Infidel of every denomination." -Thomas Jefferson, Autobiography, in reference to the Virginia Act for Religious Freedom

Jon Jay: Anglican

James Madison:

"We hold it for a fundamental and undeniable truth that religion, or the duty which we owe our Creator, and the manner of discharging it, can be directed only by reason and conviction, not by force or violence. The religion, then, of every man must be left to the conviction and conscience of every man: and that it is the right of every man to exercise it as these may dictate." - James Madison, Memorial and Remonstrance to the Assembly of Virginia

"Religious bondage shackles and debilitates the mind and unfits it for every noble enterprise."

"During almost fifteen centuries has the legal establishment of Christianity been on trial. What have been its fruits? More or less in all places, pride and indolence in the Clergy, ignorance and servility in the laity, in both, superstition, bigotry and persecution."

James Madison:

n his early life, he was an orthodox and conventional, though not deeply pious, Presbyterian. From 1777 to 1792, Hamilton appears to have been completely indifferent, and made jokes about God at the Constitutional Convention. During the French Revolution, he had an "opportunistic religiosity", using Christianity for political ends and insisting that Christianity and Jefferson's democracy were incompatible. After his misfortunes of 1801, Hamilton began to assert the truth of Christianity; he also proposed a Christian Constitutional Society in 1802, to take hold of "some strong feeling of the mind" to elect "fit men" to office, and he wrote of "Christian welfare societies" for the poor. He was not a member of any denomination, but led his family in the Episcopal service the Sunday before the duel. After he was shot, Hamilton requested communion first from Benjamin Moore, the Episcopal Bishop of New York, who initially declined to administer the Sacrament chiefly because he did not wish to sanction the practice of dueling. Hamilton then requested communion from Presbyterian pastor John Mason, who declined on the grounds that Presbyterians did not reserve the Sacrament. After Hamilton spoke of his belief in God's mercy, and of his desire to renounce dueling, Bishop Moore reversed his decision, and administered communion to Hamilton.

References: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexander_Hamilton#Hamilton.27s_religion

This is also a good read: America's True History of Religious Tolerance | History & Archaeology | Smithsonian Magazine

You do cite good references that some of them were deists and actually I can accept that. Although I was raised a christian, my beliefs tend to be more of an intelligent design type, so I guess that makes me a deist as well.

The atheism is more of what I wanted you to prove, should have clipped the deist part out. But so far, good job backing up your clam.
 
Who is in a position to decide or indicate good or bad?

By my logic they are FREE Americans. Good or bad is an indication of applied judgment. They are free to worship as they choose because of the pre-existing right to do so.

The Constitution simply provides protection against persecution, restriction, or regulation by any government entity when exercising that pre-existing right.

If their intent is to "fundamentally change" America I'll have issue with that. Be free and enjoy the fact that you are free. That is as far as your rights go. Your rights end where my rights begin.


If their intent is to "fundamentally change" America I'll have issue with that. Be free and enjoy the fact that you are free. That is as far as your rights go. Your rights end where my rights begin.


Good point. Want to know what will become of America? Look at what has happened all over Europe in all the countries that have allowed Musliams to over run their countries. I know a lady that lives in Londan part of the year. These Musliam defenders should hear some of the stories she can tell about the Musliams but 6shooter you will never get through to some people as they would argue with a rock.
 
I generally don't get into conversations about religion. But I will say this: according to my book, I, along with everyone else, will stand alone and unaided before the Judge to explain themselves. This is when many will find out the answer to this and all questions.
 
Aliens

HI:
Muslims had 4 christian people arrested in Dearborn. Because that is a threat against there religion. Is that freedom of religion. I do not think so. It took the Thomas Moore Legal Center in Ann Arbor to get them acquitted from the charges. Is that biased or what. We have to accept there religion but they do not have to accept ours. When they take over this country ladies watch out. Men have several wives. Women will no longer have any freedom.
I do not have a problem with anyone from any country coming to the US. Learn our language and customs. If anyone does not like it here than please leave the US. We should have a national fund here in the US. If you do not like it here you can get the money for air fare to leave. But you cannot ever return.
 
Statistically speaking, how many wars/insurgencies are being fought World wide today in the name of the Muslim Religion compared to Christianity. Something like 42 out of 47 armed conflicts today are due to Muslim domination of the current society in those parts of the World. NONE in the name of Jesus.
So statistically speaking, NO, I do not what them as my neighbors as Americans. A good ref book if interested is Mark Steyn "America Alone". Not a scare you book just a well researched writing on whats statistically probably going to come if we continue on this path.
Can I now say Merry Christmas!................Oh ya, ALL the Founding Fathers were Christians. Some just not as devoted as others.
 
You do cite good references that some of them were deists and actually I can accept that. Although I was raised a christian, my beliefs tend to be more of an intelligent design type, so I guess that makes me a deist as well.

The atheism is more of what I wanted you to prove, should have clipped the deist part out. But so far, good job backing up your clam.

Yes, I was a bit strong in stating that they were all Deists, or Atheists . More correctly would have been they were mostly all Deists. At the very least they realized the importance of separating government from religion.

I'm an Atheist, by that I mean that I do not have sufficient empirical evidence to justify believing in the existence of a deity. I was raised Christian and for a good chunk of my life identified as Christian. I was heavily involved in the church, was even a commander in the Royal Rangers. It's too much to go into here but when I walked away from the church and the faith it was a long time coming. Just so you know where I'm coming from.

"my beliefs tend to be more of an intelligent design type, so I guess that makes me a deist as well"

Ok, I explain it to my wife (who is an active Christian, believes in god, goes to church. I suspect she is more of a Deist then she realizes though). Science can take us as far back as the Big Bang, it can't currently explain what caused it, what set everything into motion if you will. I can concede that what caused the Big Bang was some form of intelligence, and if you'd like to call that intelligence "God" then ok. The fact of the matter is we don't know (yet) and it's just as likely that a cat wondering through the void sneezed and caused the Big Bang as it is that your's, or any one else's god did.

In any case the fundamental problem with Intelligent Design is that it states that we are so complex that we had to have been created by something intelligent. Our creator then (according to ID) has to be at least as complex as we are... fine. But that also means that our creator has to have a creator that is at least as complex as he/she/it is. And then that creator has to have a creator that is at least as complex as e/she/it is... and well it never ends.

Back to the point of the matter: our government, our constitution was founded on religious freedom. Our government was created to be agnostic toward religion. Even if the founding fathers were all devout Christians... it does not matter, our government is not a theocracy. The founding fathers created a secular government. I can't understand why this is so hard for people to accept as it's the very thing that protects their right to worship the god of their choosing.
 
How quickly we define things through the limits of our own eyes and the convienience of historical reinterpretation. Even sixteenth century Calvinism worked with the local government without trying to overrun it. Many Biblical characters of a positive stature were failures and some were even murderers at times in their lives, but like with anything else, context is the key. It is so easy to lose context. It is so easy to lose context.

Under Sharia law, even what are presented as theologically vague, harmless Deists, would be an abomination to Islam. Maybe some Muslim groups would have some sympathy in this area, but having this come down to a proverbial throw of the dice instead of a God-given right and government protection is just too scary for me.

Freedom of religion does assume at least some of what I will cal an atheological tone, and that is not a bad thing. How strong or weak the faiths of the Founding Fathers were is somewhat irrelevant, in that they were able to look past that and create a government with limitations and protections beyond their own mindsets. And it still works!

Yes, I think it is an accurate statement that Islam is more at odds with the Constitutiion than other faiths and religions. The first amendment of the Constitution is an offense to Islam. One does not need to look far to see that.
 
HI:
Muslims had 4 christian people arrested in Dearborn. Because that is a threat against there religion. Is that freedom of religion. I do not think so. It took the Thomas Moore Legal Center in Ann Arbor to get them acquitted from the charges. Is that biased or what. We have to accept there religion but they do not have to accept ours. When they take over this country ladies watch out. Men have several wives. Women will no longer have any freedom.
I do not have a problem with anyone from any country coming to the US. Learn our language and customs. If anyone does not like it here than please leave the US. We should have a national fund here in the US. If you do not like it here you can get the money for air fare to leave. But you cannot ever return.

I've read accounts from both sides and though I was not there it seems to me that the "4 Christians" were harassing people at a convention or Muslim gathering. And many Christians criticize David Wood and Nabeel Qureshi group.
 
How quickly we define things through the limits of our own eyes and the convienience of historical reinterpretation. Even sixteenth century Calvinism worked with the local government without trying to overrun it. Many Biblical characters of a positive stature were failures and some were even murderers at times in their lives, but like with anything else, context is the key. It is so easy to lose context. It is so easy to lose context.

Under Sharia law, even what are presented as theologically vague, harmless Deists, would be an abomination to Islam. Maybe some Muslim groups would have some sympathy in this area, but having this come down to a proverbial throw of the dice instead of a God-given right and government protection is just too scary for me.

Freedom of religion does assume at least some of what I will cal an atheological tone, and that is not a bad thing. How strong or weak the faiths of the Founding Fathers were is somewhat irrelevant, in that they were able to look past that and create a government with limitations and protections beyond their own mindsets. And it still works!

Yes, I think it is an accurate statement that Islam is more at odds with the Constitutiion than other faiths and religions. The first amendment of the Constitution is an offense to Islam. One does not need to look far to see that.

There seems to be this idea that Muslims are "invading" the US... what evidence is there of this?

I don't defend Islam, I don't defend any religion... their all bunk to me. I do defend people's right to practice the religion of their choosing so long as they do not harm or foist their religion on anyone else.
 
And that intolerance of someone asking a simple question makes you a bad American. Same Same...

Some people have opinions and don't feel like they should have to be tolerant of things simply because someone else believes they should be. Freedom of choice and free will. That's what American was founded on as well. So go and be the bad American your way and let the others be bad Americans their way...

I never claimed to be a good American, just an AMERICAN. And could care less about what you want to label me as.

And the question being asked is not a simple one but one of someone looking for intolerant people like themselves. As who answers there own question but someone with an ulterior motive.
 
For some reason you all jumped over the part about Muslims being born here in America making them US citizens. Instead you all are grouping Muslims with foreigners coming into America to live.

As stated by other posters enjoy your freedom to worship what ever religion you want but when it starts denying my freedoms or the US Constitution then there will be a problem.
 
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I'm sure there are Muslims that are "good Americans". On the other hand, are you willing to bet your life, or the lives of others that any particular one isn't a member of a radical Muslim sect, intent on blowing up as many "infidels" as possible?

Profiling works. If the largest threat to any country is green men, wearing purple tennis shoes, then green men wearing purple tennis shoes should be looked at VERY closely... I don't care what their religion, or nationality is.
 
There seems to be this idea that Muslims are "invading" the US... what evidence is there of this?

I don't defend Islam, I don't defend any religion... their all bunk to me. I do defend people's right to practice the religion of their choosing so long as they do not harm or foist their religion on anyone else.

The beauty of the Constitution is that it allows for the freedoms we have. Some groups and ideologies run contrary to Constituitonal law, including Marxism and Islam. I had a coworker try to tell me that my concerns about Marxism/Socialism in this country are unfounded because there has not been, nor will there be, a physical, tangible working class revolution. I say the most effective revolution is one that happens right under everyone's noses so that people don't realize they have been fooled until it is too late. Hitler took away Germany's right to bear arms in 1933. People should be worried about 2000+ page congressional bills that are not read, regardless of party affilliation. The head of the socialist party in the 1930s said that Americans would never accept socialism unless it was disguised as "liberalism." A Socialist prophecy came true, if I may mix a few beliefs together.

Yes, there are two sides of the coin to religious freedom. Things I may disagree with are allowed, but so are the things that I do agree with. If others want to enjoy the same freedoms I have, then great. Come on over! But if others want to take away my freedoms because they run contrary to their beliefs and ideologies, then I have a problem with that. The rattlesnake is still a rattlesnake. Hard words, but true words.

The evidence you seek is in the Islamic practices around the world. Women are still stoned to death and people are still beheaded. Muslims rape non-Muslims in the Sudan, let alone all of the killing. Not all groups fall into the "extreme" category as we put it, but, correct me if I am wrong, few, or no Muslim groups speaks out against these more extreme Muslims. I say this because I believe they have the same fear of physical retaliation as do non-Muslim groups. They are afraid to speak out and have no freedom of speech, even responsible speech.
 
The beauty of the Constitution is that it allows for the freedoms we have. Some groups and ideologies run contrary to Constituitonal law, including Marxism and Islam. I had a coworker try to tell me that my concerns about Marxism/Socialism in this country are unfounded because there has not been, nor will there be, a physical, tangible working class revolution. I say the most effective revolution is one that happens right under everyone's noses so that people don't realize they have been fooled until it is too late. Hitler took away Germany's right to bear arms in 1933. People should be worried about 2000+ page congressional bills that are not read, regardless of party affilliation. The head of the socialist party in the 1930s said that Americans would never accept socialism unless it was disguised as "liberalism." A Socialist prophecy came true, if I may mix a few beliefs together.

Yes, there are two sides of the coin to religious freedom. Things I may disagree with are allowed, but so are the things that I do agree with. If others want to enjoy the same freedoms I have, then great. Come on over! But if others want to take away my freedoms because they run contrary to their beliefs and ideologies, then I have a problem with that. The rattlesnake is still a rattlesnake. Hard words, but true words.

The evidence you seek is in the Islamic practices around the world. Women are still stoned to death and people are still beheaded. Muslims rape non-Muslims in the Sudan, let alone all of the killing. Not all groups fall into the "extreme" category as we put it, but, correct me if I am wrong, few, or no Muslim groups speaks out against these more extreme Muslims. I say this because I believe they have the same fear of physical retaliation as do non-Muslim groups. They are afraid to speak out and have no freedom of speech, even responsible speech.

+1 ................
 
Well I'm concerned

I encourage you to read this speech given by Geert Wilders a year or so ago entitled "The take-over of Europe is part of the global fight of Islam for world domination" (Link Removed)

While the web site is anti-Muslim the facts can certainly be verified. A quote from Libyan leader Muammar al-Gaddafi is very telling, he said, “We have 50 million Muslims in Europe. There are signs that Allah will grant Islam victory in Europe – without swords, without guns, without conquest. The 50 million Muslims of Europe will turn it into a Muslim continent within a few decades.”

Some European's have awakened to the reality that their countries are being taken over by invaders, most are too concerned about political correctness to say anything. I believe they are also afraid of retaliation.

Call me paranoid if you must but please explain to me why people of a different "faith" would immigrate to nations where their religion and culture is not practiced, where they make no effort to integrate into the culture and insist on implementing their form of law in opposition to established law.

I think we should all be very concerned.
 

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