Am I justified

[Brotherhood of Arms 2012#]

I'm currently working on my act 235 here in pa but I work as a unarmed security guard, last night a couple guys ganged up on a guy and made it hard for the security team to stop the group from jumping the guy and still keep our team safe. I am a concealed carrier and keep my pistol on me at all times do you guys think I would have been justified in saving this guy from the beating he received. It was a 5 on 1 situation

 

[sgtbill]

I think a call to 911 might have helped.
Bill

 

[Brotherhood of Arms 2012#]

That was definitely done but with their response time the guy was already knocked unconscious with his head beat to a pulp unfortunately we had to intervene without firearms and risk our safety while we waited

 

[kelcarry]

I do not know what the "rules" are in PA, but in many states including SC, there is an Alter Ego Rule attached to the firearm code of laws. This Rule allows you to intervene on behalf of the victim, as if it is you being attacked, if you can reasonably presume that the victim (as if it is you), is in imminent danger of death or great bodily injury. The only trouble with this rule is to have a clear and unmistakeable "presumption" of what is really going on; in your thread case it sounds very obvious and if the Alter Ego Rule does or did exist, you have every "right" to intervene, including the use of your firearm, based on the "imminent" nature of the situation and the fact that this victim is being beaten to the point of imminent death or great bodily injury.

 

[Brotherhood of Arms 2012#]

Here in Pa we do have very similar laws as to the protection of others the only issue here is getting everybody else is on board with knowing what's going on....thanks for the input kelcarry

 

[revolverboy]

I would ay there was a disparity of force. They out numbered you & your parter & had intent to do bodily harm. If there were 2 guys taking on 2 guys then its an "even" fight. If you would have shot 4 of the guys, the last guy you would have to fight by hand as then its only 1 on 1.

Hope your partner will be alright.

 

[Kalamity023]

If you're licensed as an unarmed guard and use deadly force while on duty you may have some issues.

 

[BC1]

I would advise you don't take any advice from anyone on this forum who tells you to use your gun. Take a law class. Maybe get an opinion from an attorney. The only advice I can give you is that you don't use your gun unless the threat is so dire that you're willing to ruin your life. Just ask GZ.

 

[Brotherhood of Arms 2012#]

Thanks for the responses but understand that I am in no way looking on this thread for legal advice just seeing as to what others in the community think I am always researching legal topics as well as seeing what others know that I can use

 

[Shoobee]

I would advise you don't take any advice from anyone on this forum who tells you to use your gun. Take a law class. Maybe get an opinion from an attorney. The only advice I can give you is that you don't use your gun unless the threat is so dire that you're willing to ruin your life. Just ask GZ.

To BC1's excellent advice, I would add that a LEO would call for backup first, whenever outnumbered like that. So you should have called for backup first as well.

 

[Shoobee]

I would advise you don't take any advice from anyone on this forum who tells you to use your gun. Take a law class. Maybe get an opinion from an attorney. The only advice I can give you is that you don't use your gun unless the threat is so dire that you're willing to ruin your life. Just ask GZ.

Regarding GZ, lets not forget that he was a bit rash himself, which got him into more trouble than he ever dreamed.

Whether he ended up getting ambushed by the kid, or whether he stalked and confronted the kid, either way, he had no backup, and he was in way deep over his head.

The disadvantage of CCW is that you cannot draw very fast, and your assailant cannot see the weapon therefore it does not serve to deter him. With OC you can draw faster, and with the assailant seeing the gun he is sometimes deterred. That's the problem with the CCW laws that require you to keep the weapon concealed at all times.

In GZ's case I would have drawn my CCW weapon the second I saw him approaching, if that's what really happened, to avoid getting pommelled and the risk of being beaten to death first and having the gun wrestled away.

Caveat -- we don't know what really happened in the GZ case and we may never know.

But I agree, that GZ got himself in way over his head, trying to play cop when he is no cop. Ergo playing cop is not a good idea. Ever.

 

[Brotherhood of Arms 2012#]

Understand that everything that you guys are saying I did I am far from unaware and uneducated just looking to see if I may have missed something.....and I really don't think there's even a reason to mention the GZ guy

 

[Riverkilt]

Just like CPR...first call 911...you might get lucky. Guessing your employer has made it clear as to their policy about carrying even though you're only licensed for unarmed. Worked 12 years for a Fortune 500 company that supplied unarmed security but winked and looked the other way that all the guys carried concealed. Think your employer would be the one to address it - their liability insurance etc. Amazed that's not part of your training and the question wasn't answered in your training.

Not an attorney either but don't guess the state would care much about what your employer's rules were...

Here in Arizona we're voting on a new law that would prevent bad guys from suing for damages if a good guy hurt them in response to what the bad guy did. Gonna be an interesting vote.

Main thing - that should have been made clear - is what do you guards do - what's the drill - what does your employer expect - what does the licensing bureau expect when the threat exceeds your licensed level of response...?

Seems so basic that it shouldn't be too difficult to figure out.

 

[Treo]

If you have to ask “Am I justified?’ you’re probably not.

That said, I can’t speak for Pennsylvania but in Colorado a licensed security guard must have a firearms endorsement on their license and be working on an armed site or they are carrying illegally. CHP status is irrelevant. Also in Colorado a licensed guard may not carry a concealed weapon under any circumstance. I’m going to guess Pennsylvania’s laws are similar.

So, you’re probably already starting off behind the curve by carrying illegally you may not go to jail but I bet you’ll never work as a security guard again.

Worked 12 years for a Fortune 500 company that supplied unarmed security but winked and looked the other way that all the guys carried concealed.

And I will bet my ass that the company would have disavowed all knowledge had one of "the guys" had to use their weapon on duty.

 

[ToddR]

This seems like a real "touchy" issue. What are your employer's rules for carrying your own licensed weapon? Would you be justified acting as a "citizen" when you were on duty? Would you have been terminated but able to save another from serious bodily harm? Did the "victim" start the fight?

 

[localgirl]

Frankly, if there were five guys piled on top of one, a bullet wouldn't have been my first choice. Pretty hard to control in that situation. I would recommend a baseball bat, chair, foot to the face, etc....

 

[Treo]

I have about five years of experience in the security field all in Colorado and all as a licensed, unarmed, merchant guard.

In my experience in order to work as a licensed armed guard you must have an armed endorsement on your license and you must be on an armed post. If either of those conditions is not met you are carrying your weapon illegally as well as outside the scope of your duties. As such you, not your employer, are 100% legally liable for any use of your firearm.

Security companies pay for different levels of liability insurance and the rider for an armed guard is about four times more expensive that for an unarmed guard. Some clients also contractually obligate the security company to pay a fine if a guard is found on site with an unauthorized weapon.

With regard to any company I have ever worked for, in any situation where a guard was found with an unauthorized weapon on site he has been terminated immediately, no questions asked and no appeals.

It has also been my experience that the security field is a small world (at least in Colorado Springs) if you are terminated for carrying an unauthorized weapon it is likely that you will not be working in the industry again.

 

[Shoobee]

Frankly, if there were five guys piled on top of one, a bullet wouldn't have been my first choice. Pretty hard to control in that situation. I would recommend a baseball bat, chair, foot to the face, etc....

This is also a major problem on hunting trips as well, where a bear attacks someone, and someone else shoots at the bear, and the bullet continues to travel and hits the person too, or the bear is missed and the person is hit. Very good point by LocalGirl.

I think I would look for the nearest fire extinguisher, and use that to blast the assailants.

 

[Shoobee]

Understand that everything that you guys are saying I did I am far from unaware and uneducated just looking to see if I may have missed something.....and I really don't think there's even a reason to mention the GZ guy

GZ is a classic case though. He thought he was being a do-good-er. Then he thought he was defending himself. Then he talked up a good story and the police let him go. Which later cost the police chief his job. Then he ended up in a world of poo with 30 million onlookers, including several on cable tv.

 

[SGB]

GZ is a classic case though. He thought he was being a do-good-er. Then he thought he was defending himself. Then he talked up a good story and the police let him go. Which later cost the police chief his job. Then he ended up in a world of poo with 30 million onlookers, including several on cable tv.

...... your fairy tale talking points get old, further it isn't relevant to the discussion.