BluesStringer
Les Brers
So, dismiss it is then. No problem.
A Glimpse Into The Afterlife
- Thread starter Ringo
- Start date
I can't find any place in the Bible where Christians are called to crusade for social reform, Paul never preached against the Gladiatorial games or slavery or even (expect to state that adherents were worshiping a false god) child sacrifice to Molech.
Paul stated that this World and the World's system is corrupt and passing and told us not to take our eyes off the prize.
We're supposed to live in this world as aliens and strangers. This isn't our home and our mission here isn't to establish a theocracy on Earth. Our mission is to warn people to flee from the wrath to come.
I also don't see any place in the Bible where Paul's main emphasis is on specific sins. He doesn't gloss over sin, he acknowledges that it's sin and moves on to the main point which is that we are ALL sinners and we have ALL earned eternal damnation.
Abortion is sinful but according to the Word it's not any more heinous than any other sin. I sin every day and for me to put myself on some spiritual pedestal and claim that I'm somehow better than the person who is still stumbling around in the dark grieves the heart of God.
Paul stated that this World and the World's system is corrupt and passing and told us not to take our eyes off the prize.
We're supposed to live in this world as aliens and strangers. This isn't our home and our mission here isn't to establish a theocracy on Earth. Our mission is to warn people to flee from the wrath to come.
I also don't see any place in the Bible where Paul's main emphasis is on specific sins. He doesn't gloss over sin, he acknowledges that it's sin and moves on to the main point which is that we are ALL sinners and we have ALL earned eternal damnation.
Abortion is sinful but according to the Word it's not any more heinous than any other sin. I sin every day and for me to put myself on some spiritual pedestal and claim that I'm somehow better than the person who is still stumbling around in the dark grieves the heart of God.
XD40scinNC
New member
Ringo has a special edition :wink:
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Here are some commentaries on Romans 13 from some Pastors and Bible Scholars who's credential are a little easier to check up on.
Ringo
A WATCHMAN
Schwarzenegger and God
Arnold Schwarzenegger says he is angry at death. In an interview last year he said, "Your whole life you work, you try to improve yourself, save money, invest wisely, and then all of a sudden - poof. It's over."
I have some news for Arnold Schwarzenegger: Death makes God angry, too.
Someone might be thinking, Why didn't God do something about it? He did. He sent his son to die on the cross. And when Christ died on the cross and rose again, he defeated death.
I know that people still die, of course. My mother is in heaven. My father who adopted me is in heaven. My son is in heaven. I have had to face death head-on, so I'm not approaching this subject from an ivory tower of theory. Rather, I'm giving a dispatch from the valley of the shadow of death.
I know what it is like to feel that pain. I also know what it is like to know the hope that Christ can bring, because I know death is not the end. Jesus said, "I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in Me, though he may die, he shall live" (John 11:25 NKJV).
Life goes by so fast. I remember when I was a kid, I would look at older people and think, "Where do these people come from?" Then one day I looked in the mirror and realized that I was one of those older people.
My generation, the generation that launched the youth culture, has turned from sex, drugs and rock 'n' roll to nip, tuck and Botox. We have gone from acid rock to acid reflux. The reality is that life will come to an end. We can't live forever in these bodies of ours.
The good news is the soul lives on. There is an afterlife. We make such a big deal about this life, but we don't talk enough about the afterlife. This life on earth, the Bible says, "is like the morning fog - it's here a little while, then it's gone" (James 4:14 NLT). But the afterlife goes on and on.
We need to think very seriously about this, because once we die and enter the afterlife, we can't change our destination. You can decide right now where you will spend eternity. But once you die, there are no more chances.
The Bible says, "Each person is destined to die once and after that comes judgment" (Hebrews 9:27 NLT). We want to be thinking now about where we will spend eternity. We have only two options: heaven or hell - paradise or outer darkness ... bliss or misery. Each of us has a choice.
The last thing God wants is to send any person uniquely created in his image to the place called hell. Jesus died on the cross for us so we could be forgiven and not end up there. Hell wasn't made for people. According to Jesus, hell was created for the devil and his angels.
But if someone is bound and determined to reject the offer of forgiveness from Jesus Christ and ends up in hell one day, it really will be his or her own fault. As C.S. Lewis wrote, "I willingly believe that the damned are, in one sense, successful, rebels to the end; that the doors of hell are locked on the inside."
We can have the hope of going to heaven one day. That is where the death and resurrection of Christ comes in.
John's gospel gives us an inviting scene of a breakfast cooked by Jesus, the risen, living Savior. His hands had been pierced for the disciples, yet he took the time to make them a delicious meal. He had risen again in a physical body. He wasn't a ghost. He wasn't a phantom. He wasn't a spirit. He was standing before them alive again.
Just for a moment, go back in your imagination to the first century. Here was Jesus with his great ministry, the people were singing his praises, and things were building to a crescendo. Jesus was headed to the cross. He talked about it all the time. He told his disciples that he would be betrayed, whipped and crucified, that he would rise from the dead three days later. But somehow they missed the memo on that. They were expecting him to establish his kingdom on earth right then and there.
But according to God's plan, Jesus was betrayed. He was beaten. He was crucified. He was laid in a tomb. And just as he predicted, he rose again from the dead. The resurrection of Jesus changes everything.
Because of the resurrection of Jesus, one day we will receive new bodies. And those bodies will no longer age or get sick or break down. Because of the resurrection of Jesus, we will have resurrected relationships. One day we will be reunited with our loved ones who have died in faith. We will be reunited with loved ones who have gone on before us.
By the way, these are promises for Christians only. If you are not a Christian, then the only promise you have is that of a certain judgment. The Bible says, "He has appointed a day on which He will judge the world in righteousness by the Man whom He has ordained. He has given assurance of this to all by raising Him from the dead" (Acts 17:31 NKJV). Because Jesus died and rose again, there will be a final judgment.
Good works don't get you to heaven, however. Even if they did, there is no way, even on your best day, that you would have enough good works to earn the approval of God. The good news is there is nothing we can to do that is bad enough to keep us out of heaven. But the bad news is there nothing we can do that is good enough to get us into heaven.
This is where Jesus comes in. This is why we need Jesus - because we are not good enough. We need help. Jesus, who was God in human form, satisfied the righteous demands of the heavenly Father, whom we have all offended through our sin.
When Jesus died on the cross, he took hold of a holy God with one hand, and with the other hand, he took hold of sinful humanity. He died there in our place. That is why Jesus Christ - and Jesus Christ alone - is our only way to heaven. God has dropped one lifeline from heaven, and it is Christ himself.
God doesn't grade on the curve; he grades on the cross. Heaven isn't for good people; heaven is for forgiven people.
- Greg Laurie -
~ RAPTURE...Separation Of Church & State ~:victory:
XD40scinNC
New member
~ RAPTURE...Separation reason and fantasy ~:victory:
Ringo
A WATCHMAN
What's really sad is that you're not smart enough to be afraid.
~ RAPTURE...Separation Of Church & State ~:victory:
Ringo
A WATCHMAN
The Rich Man And Lazarus
The story of the Rich Man and Lazarus is found only in the gospel according to Luke (Luke 16:19-31) and is the clearest picture anywhere in Scripture of the afterlife. As such it is essential reading for anyone attempting to counter the plethora of books by believers and non-believers alike who claim to have visited heaven or hell and been sent back. It’s also an argument against the eastern notion of reincarnation.
~ RAPTURE...Separation Of Church & State ~:victory:
XD40scinNC
New member
Link Removed
And it seems you have told yourself about many things to fear, your flaw, not mine.
Ringo
A WATCHMAN
The Greatest Mystery: Unlocked
- Jack Kinsella -
During His First Advent, the Lord Jesus unlocked many mysteries for the Church, not the least of which is what happens when we die. The Old Testament doesn't provide a lot in terms of specifics, since OT believers operated under the terms of a different Dispensation.
During the Dispensation of the Law, believers were not immediately whisked into the presence of the Lord at the moment of death. The blood of bullocks and lambs was insufficient to cover their sin.
Old Testament believers expected to stand in the Resurrection at the Last Day, but had no expectation of eternal life in the sense that the Church understands it.
"As the cloud is consumed and vanisheth away: so he that goeth down to the grave shall come up no more." (Job 7:9)
"For in death there is no remembrance of Thee: in the grave who shall give thee thanks?" (Psalms 6:5)
"For the grave cannot praise Thee, death can not celebrate Thee: they that go down into the pit cannot hope for Thy truth." (Isaiah 38:18)
Until Jesus defeated death at His resurrection, death was still pretty much a mystery. The general understanding was that first a man dies, and then he awaits the resurrection of the dead at the last day.
The Book of Job, chronologically the oldest book in the Bible, spoke of the resurrection of the dead even before the time of Abraham, confidently saying;
". . . all the days of my appointed time will I wait, till my change come. . . " Job awaited the call of the trumpet at the Rapture, thousands of years before it was generally known as doctrine. "Thou shalt call . . ." (Job 14:14-15)
"For I know that my Redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth: And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God: Whom I shall see for myself, and mine eyes shall behold, and not another; though my reins be consumed within me." (Job 19:25-27)
The Lord Jesus filled in the missing details about death and the grave under the Dispensation of the Law when He told the story of the rich man and Lazarus. I want you to note that Jesus did NOT say, "learn the parable of the rich man." He began with a definite statement of fact: "There was a certain rich man. . "
And Jesus says that there was a "certain" beggar named Lazarus. The rich man and Lazarus were real people; this is not a parable or Jesus would have identified it as such.
"And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried. And in hell, he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom."
Let's stop there for a second and examine this newly-revealed truth. Until now, OT believers thought that when they died, they stayed in the grave until the Resurrection. They had no expectation of continued consciousness - until Jesus revealed the truth to His Disciples.
Jesus told them that the rich man went immediately to hell. Lazarus was immediately carried by the angels into a place called "Abraham's bosom."
This was a totally new revelation. The Lord revealed that hell was divided - there was a place of comfort for the righteous dead with Abraham on one side.
In the middle was a great gulf or chasm, and on the other side was hell, a place of flames and torment and loneliness. Moreover, the Lord reveals that those in hell could see across to Paradise.
There are several other things we learn from Jesus about hell, and about those who are condemned to it. First, the rich man has no name, whereas Lazarus is addressed by name throughout the passage. The rich man needs no name. Nobody will ever call it again.
He is eternally separated from God; to all intents and purposes, he is 'dead' to God, and to everyone who ever knew him. He is only alive to himself. But the rich man is cognizant of his life, how he ended up in hell, and those he left behind. His memories of his earthly life are intact:
"Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house: For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment." (Luke 16:22-28)
Jesus teaches us that those condemned to hell are; a) in fiery torment, b) are self-aware, c) are nameless and without hope of reprieve, d) are conscious of their situation, and, e) their memories of their earthly lives are intact.
The Book of the Revelation teaches that what we call 'hell' is more analogous to a county jail, where prisoners are held pending trial and conviction. Once a county jail inmate is convicted, he is transferred to a state penitentiary to serve out his sentence.
"And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death." (Revelation 20:13-14)
When John describes the judgment against the devil, he writes: "And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever."
Note two things. First, the beast and false prophet 'are' - present tense -- in the lake of fire. They were not consumed. Secondly, it is a 'lake of fire and brimstone' and its inhabitants 'shall be tormented day and night forever and ever'.
Thus is the fate of those we fail to reach in our effort to discharge our Great Commission. It's a sobering thought.
Jesus taught specifically and incontrovertibly that, when the moment of death comes, our conscious spirit lives on, AWAITING the resurrection of the dead, which is when our spirit is united with our new and improved physical bodies.
At the Cross, Jesus told the repentant thief, "Verily I say unto thee, TODAY shalt thou be with Me in paradise." (Luke 23:43)
When Jesus descended into hell after His Crucifixion, He went to Paradise to "lead captivity captive", the Scriptures say. He went to Paradise to preach the Gospel and to present Himself as Savior and bring them from Paradise to Heaven.
Our spirits exist and have substance, and they are not only conscious after death, they are completely self-aware. Death is not the end of our existence.
Death does not, evidently, even impair our consciousness.
Assessment:
During the Dispensation of the Church, the Apostle Paul noted that for believers to be 'absent from the body' meant to be 'present with the Lord.'
"For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad." (2nd Corinthians 5:10)
The Apostle Paul wrote of physical death as it pertains to believers, saying; "But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope." (1st Thessalonians 4:13)
But yet we do sorrow when a loved one dies. Even when we know that our loved one is now safely resting in the arms of Jesus. We know that our loved one's race is run and their burdens have been lifted.
They are now where we all wish to be - but that does little to dry our tears. It is one of the conundrums of Christianity - everybody wants to go to heaven, but nobody wants to die.
Why do we sorrow when we know the truth? Would we be sad if our loved one had won the lottery? Of course not. But Heaven is the ultimate winning ticket. When your number comes up, you win.
And all your family and friends cry.
Why is that? Does that mean that their faith is weak? Are they really secret doubters? Paul intended to offer words of comfort -- indeed, the chapter closes; "Wherefore comfort one another with these words."
Paul offers words of comfort because of the sorrow that comes with losing a loved one. Being sorrowful at the loss of the loved one is not evidence of a lack of faith. If you think about it, your sorrow isn't because you have any doubt that your loved one is safe in the arms of Jesus.
You haven't betrayed the faith. You sorrow because they aren't here. Our loved ones are a gift from God given to us to make our sojourn on the Big Blue Marble bearable. The gift is deliberately temporary, which is what gives it its value.
When a loved one dies, we lose the gift of their companionship. Even though we know loss is also temporary, which mitigates the tragedy - it does little to ease the pain of loss in this life.
Our sorrow is not for our loved one - it is for ourselves. Their gain is our loss. It's just that simple.
There's nothing selfish in that - if one of my children got a fabulous job on the other side of the world I would be very happy for him - but personally devastated by the loss of his companionship.
The fact that I know I would see him again would mitigate the sense of loss. But it wouldn't keep me from missing him while he was gone. Or wishing he was still here. (Or make me feel guilty because I did.)
Death comes to us all - we know that. But death doesn't come to us once. It comes to us all the time - death is the one certain part of this existence. Our own death is simply the last one we have to endure.
At the Rapture, some believers will not yet have experienced death. They will be instantly changed into their incorruptible bodies. Those who have experienced physical death will be reunited with their bodies, which will be raised and changed.
But their spirits and consciousness are already awake and alive and in the presence of the Lord. Those who are 'asleep' in Christ are those who have experienced PHYSICAL, but not conscious death.
At the Rapture, the "Lord Himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise (physically incorruptible) first: Then we which are (physically) alive and remain (in our natural bodies) shall be caught up together with them (changed and incorruptible) in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord." (1st Thessalonians 4:16-17)
Our loved ones who have gone home to the Lord are ALREADY in His Presence, enjoying Heaven and its unimaginable joy and riches. They are NOT mouldering the grave, unconsciously awaiting the call of the Trumpet.
They are alive and aware and eagerly anticipating the opportunity to meet with us in the air and embrace us once more. We will see them again. We will recognize them and they will recognize us.
". . . and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore, comfort one another with these words." (1st Thessalonians 4:18)
Ringo
A WATCHMAN
In The Blink Of An Eye
“In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.” (1 Corinthians 15:52)
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~ In America Today, It's Considered Worse to Judge Evil Than To Do Evil.The Liberal Progressive Child Murderers Always Manipulate Truth To Be Hate Speech. Never Let These Purveyors Of Infanticide Set The Terms In A Debate ~
~ In America Today, It's Considered Worse to Judge Evil Than To Do Evil.The Liberal Progressive Child Murderers Always Manipulate Truth To Be Hate Speech. Never Let These Purveyors Of Infanticide Set The Terms In A Debate ~
HKS
New member
The first problem with this kind of thinking -- the God Of Love thing -- is that it is a hybridization of Philosophy AND Religion.
The Bible both Old (Tenakh) and New Testaments explains very well why there is a Heaven and why there is a Hell.
Heaven is for those souls who obey the words of God and keep his commandments.
Hell is for Lucifer (his Latin name given to him by St. Gerome) and his angels and souls who commit crimes like murder.
It could not be more clear.
If you want to go off the deep end and philosophize about God and the Devil (his English name from his Greek name Diabolos) then you are playing word games is all. You are wasting time.
HKS
New member
HKS
New member
This is typical Protestant dogma and c r a p.
Read Matthew Chapter 25 very carefully.
Do you want to be a sheep or do you want to be a goat?
The goats are those who did not do anything.
As for me, I will be a sheepdog.
HKS
New member
It is fun reading Daniel.
I don't believe the part about the 4 people walking around in the furnace however. This faerie tale must have crept into the Tenakh sometime during the Babylonian/Persian captivity.
HKS
New member
If you don't pay close attention while you are driving your car as to where you are going and who is coming at you from in front or from behind or from either side then you can be changed in the blinking of an eye to dead-already.
HKS
New member
The One Who created it was Moses.
He was followed by Joshua.
Then eventually Samuel.
Then Nathan.
Ultimately Ezra and Nehemiah.
Then finally someone anonymous finished the Old (Tenakh) Testament with Maccabees.
The apostles and evangelists (missionaries) of Jesus created the New.
That's who wrote it -- and created it. It was for the benefit of neophytes.
Whereas Moses was literate and a prolific writer -- for the benefit of the Hebrews after he himself was gone -- he wrote everything down, as did the prophets who followed him and kept charge of the manuscript which being written on parchment (lamb skin) needed to be recopied every hundred years or so.
On the other hand the apostles and evangelists of the New Testament were secretive and did not write everything down until St. Paul began writing his letters to the Greek and Roman churches. Then suddenly Peter got the notion he too should write something down, presumably before his execution at Rome, so his stepson Mark served as his scribe. Then Matthew not to be outdone wrote using Mark's "gospel" (good-message in Greek -- efagelion) as a guide. Much later Luke did the same referencing both Mark and Matthew. Then finally John wrote his.
Note that Eusebius discredited "Hebrews" and "Revelation" so you should not take either of those two too seriously.
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