Hide Your Gun In Plain Sight

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Another btw, the cops would have to arrest themselves as the majority of the unregistered "assault weapons" are found to be property of police officers, hence why they suspended the unconstitutional law.

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Wow you truly are stupid. Social Contract Theory Law & Legal Definition

Our Constitution is a Social Contract. The second amendment itself is part of a Social Contract.

If you were to rent out a room of your home, and a tenant had to agree to house rules which are outside of the rental agreement, those house rules are a social contract.
Ummmm..... the thing is..... I understand that the Bill of Rights isn't a list of rights the government signed on to allow us to have through some social contract... it is a list of rights we, as human beings, already have regardless of whether there is a government or not. Got that part? There doesn't have to be a government in order for people to have rights... people have rights regardless of if there is a government, a Constitution, or some social contract.

And I understand that any limits/restrictions put upon any of those rights by any government, you know... gun control laws that do not allow hiding a gun in a tissue box for example... are infringements upon the right to KEEP arms.

I can see that you and I are going to never agree simply because I believe that rights shall not be infringed by any government limits/restrictions and you are willing to have the government limit/restrict rights as long as you agree that the how, when, where, why, who, and with what, those limits/restrictions are "reasonable" to you, "appropriate" to you and "acceptable" to you. And it is anti gunner lite folks like you who tout how much they support the right to bear arms while advocating to restrict/limit that same right who, in my opinion anyway, do more damage to the right to keep and bear arms than the rabid anti gunners.

Bottom line is quite simple.... folks either support the right to KEEP and bear arms or they support limiting/restricting the right to whatever they personally think (their personal opinion of what) is "reasonable", "appropriate", and/or "acceptable". The first is supporting the right... the latter is supporting infringements upon the right.
 
Originally Posted by Bikenut View Post
The only thing you said in your post that is correct is that everything can be taken from you. Got that? TAKEN from you.
And if it can be TAKEN away, it's not a 'natural right.

Originally Posted by Bikenut View Post
That does not mean the right to keep arms isn't a natural right...
No that's exactly what it means.

Originally Posted by Bikenut View Post
...it only means folks like you are willing to use any convoluted logic to justify wanting to limit that right...
The right was already limited centuries before I was born.

Originally Posted by Bikenut View Post
The 2nd Amendment is not some Christian contract left over from England nor is it a civil right nor is it a result of some social contract...
The aforementioned proof to the contrary means your opinion here is incorrect.

Originally Posted by Bikenut View Post
All of the bill of rights, including the right to keep arms, is nothing more than wording that recognizes the natural rights of human beings and binds the government from instituting any limits/restrictions/criteria.
The bill of rights recognizees pre-existing civil rights rights which exist within the social contract of Christianity. Natural rights don't exist to then be recognized.

Originally Posted by Bikenut View Post
And before you come back with something about me saying that as if it is a bad thing... it most certainly IS a bad thing. The idea that a right, a natural or God given right, can be limited as long as those limits are seen by someone as "reasonable", "appropriate", or "acceptable", then there are not rights.... just whatever privileges the ones in power deign to allow.
'Good' and 'bad' are subjective moral values and thus irrelevant. There are no natural rights. That's just a fact. The right to keep and bear arms is a civil right. That's just a fact. No right is unlimited. That's just a fact. There is no 'good' or 'bad' about it, that's just how it is.
I see you truly do not understand what a right is (hint: people are born with rights just because they are born whether there is a government or not or any contracts or not) but you do understand that you want to impose your opinion of what (infringement) is "reasonable", "appropriate", and "acceptable" onto others with attempts to justify that desire to control with talk of social contracts and some Christian social contract.
 
Another btw, the cops would have to arrest themselves as the majority of the unregistered "assault weapons" are found to be property of police officers, hence why they suspended the unconstitutional law.

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FunFact: when New York passed the SAFE Act, the law did not exempt law enforcement. An emergency session had to be held to amend the law.

There was about a month between the law taking effect and the change, meaning every single NY cop is now a fellon.

No cold dead hands were found taking up arms against this tyrany. The population has before, does, and will again just bend over and take it, so enough with all the tuff talk.
 
FunFact: when New York passed the SAFE Act, the law did not exempt law enforcement. An emergency session had to be held to amend the law.

There was about a month between the law taking effect and the change, meaning every single NY cop is now a fellon.

No cold dead hands were found taking up arms against this tyrany. The population has before, does, and will again just bend over and take it, so enough with all the tuff talk.
Your postings in this thread show you not only are not fighting tyranny but are advocating for even more with wanting to limit the right to "keep" an arm to either locked up in some manner or actually on your person because of your inability to understand that the right to "keep" an arm includes hiding a pistol in a tissue box.

Unfortunately there are many so called supporters of the right to keep and bear arms that want to limit/restrict who, when, where, why, how, and with what, people are allowed to "keep" and bear arms simply because they believe only the things they consider "reasonable", "appropriate", and "acceptable", should be.... allowed. Never understanding that which isn't allowed is an.... infringement.
 
Your postings in this thread show you not only are not fighting tyranny but are advocating for even more with wanting to limit the right to "keep" an arm to either locked up in some manner or actually on your person because of your inability to understand that the right to "keep" an arm includes hiding a pistol in a tissue box.
Keeping your weapon under posative control is good discipline, not tyranny.

Unfortunately there are many so called supporters of the right to keep and bear arms that want to limit/restrict who, when, where, why, how, and with what, people are allowed to "keep" and bear arms simply because they believe only the things they consider "reasonable", "appropriate", and "acceptable", should be.... allowed. Never understanding that which isn't allowed is an.... infringement.
Unfortunately for you the dictionary, history, and Supreme Court disagree with your opinion.

You go on ahead believeing the earth is flat, just understand that doesn't the earth is actually flat; it just means you're wrong.
 
Originally Posted by Bikenut View Post
Your postings in this thread show you not only are not fighting tyranny but are advocating for even more with wanting to limit the right to "keep" an arm to either locked up in some manner or actually on your person because of your inability to understand that the right to "keep" an arm includes hiding a pistol in a tissue box.
Keeping your weapon under posative control is good discipline, not tyranny.

Originally Posted by Bikenut View Post
Unfortunately there are many so called supporters of the right to keep and bear arms that want to limit/restrict who, when, where, why, how, and with what, people are allowed to "keep" and bear arms simply because they believe only the things they consider "reasonable", "appropriate", and "acceptable", should be.... allowed. Never understanding that which isn't allowed is an.... infringement.
Unfortunately for you the dictionary, history, and Supreme Court disagree with your opinion.

You go on ahead believeing the earth is flat, just understand that doesn't the earth is actually flat; it just means you're wrong.
Unfortunately you do not understand that your opinion of what constitutes "keeping your weapon under positive control" isn't the only method of positive control but you do understand that you want other people to adhere to your definition of positive control. Which means you want other people to be restricted to your personal opinion of what infringements are necessary for other people to be in what you consider "positive control".

And unfortunately you do not understand the cites and links from the dictionary that I already posted disagrees with your opinion and that a History of infringements, and Supreme Court (a part of government) decisions supporting infringements are still... infringements.

Be all that as it may it is obvious that your position is one of supporting infringements.... not supporting rights simply because you want the government to outlaw any method of keeping an arm to either locked up or on your person but definitely not hidden in a tissue box . And supporting the government REQUIRING (infringing) most assuredly is supporting ..... TYRANNY!

And why did you feel it necessary to add the snide remark about a flat earth? Reaching a bit?
 
FunFact: when New York passed the SAFE Act, the law did not exempt law enforcement. An emergency session had to be held to amend the law.

There was about a month between the law taking effect and the change, meaning every single NY cop is now a fellon.

No cold dead hands were found taking up arms against this tyrany. The population has before, does, and will again just bend over and take it, so enough with all the tuff talk.

Do you understand the concept freedom? Does one have to take up arms and fight to be considered free?

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That's my point. He didn't make this thread, he didn't start this conversation, to then need to be told to mind his own business.

Good grief. The dude made his first post in months to come in here advocating for government-imposed storage laws, and called those of us who oppose such laws "children" who have "no real life experience." He's not only poking his nose in my and my state's business by advocating for such laws, he's being a child himself by engaging in rank name-calling with zero substance to back it up. So I told him to mind his own business. What's it to you?

False. Strict Scrutiny applies to all rights spicificaly enumerated in the Constitution; freedom of press, freedom of religion, freedom of speach, keep and bear arms, equal protection, voting, etc.

Absolutely wrong, and I already proved it. Strict scrutiny has never been applied to a pure 2nd Amendment case at the Supreme Court level, which would be the only way it would be mandated to be used in all lower courts nationwide. Strict scrutiny wasn't applied to Heller or McDonald, in fact, no standard of scrutiny doctrine was even mentioned in either case for lower courts to have guidance on to use in their own courtrooms concerning the 2A. The Heller and McDonald cases represent the totality of SCOTUS cases that revolved purely around the 2nd Amendment, and no scrutiny doctrine was applied to either. Link Removed. You clearly don't have a clue what "strict scrutiny" even means regarding enumerated rights, or even non-enumerated rights, of which there are thousands more than just the ones listed in the BoR.

Those very founders imposed limits, proving that a limit isn't necessarily an infringement.

And still you demonstrate that you don't know the first thing about "law" in this country.

"Those very Founders" were writing the Constitution and Bill of Rights as members of We, The People, not "Them, The Run-Amok, Usurping Tyrants of Government."

You're asserting that the Constitution and attending amendments should be read thusly:

"We, the people of the United States, in order to submit to a more perfect Central Government, establish Central Government's power over all issues of justice, insure domestic obedience to the Central Government, provide for the common defense including spying on We, The People for our own good, promote the general welfare irregardless of any and all limitations put on the Central Government under Article I, Section 8 of this very Constitution, and secure the blessings of liberty to [ourselves] (strike) The Central Government to decide for itself what We, The People mean when We say things like "...shall not be infringed" or "...shall make no law" or "...shall not be violated" or "...are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people" and our posterity right up until The Central Government decides "posterity" is obsolete, do ordain and submit all of our liberties to the Central Government, and give Central Government our blessings in totally disregarding this Constitution for the United States of America for perpetuity."

That is your version of The Preamble to The Constitution as far as anyone can tell from your posts.

Applying strict scrutiny to everything you've said in this thread, no objective observer can argue with a lick of credibility the accuracy of my edits on your behalf of The Preamble to The Constitution of The United States of America.

Oh you mean like in Connecticut when gun owners lubed up and spread cheeks when the state passed an 'assult weapons' ban?

No cop is going to risk his child's dental plan over your guns.

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Blues
 
Well this is interesting.....and timely considering the direction this thread took away from the tissue box towards some absolutely brain-dead blather about "strict scrutiny" applying to the 2nd Amendment.....

Yesterday, February 4th, 2016, the first American federal appeals court in the history of history ruled that the 2nd Amendment falls under the strict scrutiny doctrine. Even much of the commentary generated by the ruling is more about it being the first time strict scrutiny has ever applied to the 2A than they are commenting on the rather significant overturning of Maryland's Firearms Safety Act of 2013. If the 3-judge ruling survives a likely en banc (full court review), and if the Supremes take this case when the State of MD appeals the Fourth Circuit ruling, it will be the very first time that the Supremes will be forced to answer the question of why the 2A is the only enumerated right to be denied a strict scrutiny method of ruling up to that point by all federal courts since the beginning of jurisprudence in the United States. If the 4th C. ruling stands against MD's FSA, it will be the most significant 2A case to ever get anywhere near the Supreme Court. Knowing some of the traitors on the High Court, there are certainly no guarantees, but the 4th C. just took a bold and giant leap backwards towards full restoration of meaning and status as-understood by the Patriots who passed and adopted the Second Amendment on December 15, 1791.

The following is the first place I looked after hearing about the ruling. I'm sure there are other sites with varying analysis of what the potential is for this to be a hugely big deal, but this one seems to get it, so here ya go:






Posted by Andrew Branca Thursday, February 4, 2016 at 2:30pm

Virtually all gun control laws will be found unconstitutional if subject to strict scrutiny


Link Removed

In 2013, Maryland enacted its Firearms Safety Act (FSA). With its passage, effectively banning its residents from owning any of the large majority of semi-automatic rifles owned by American citizens (exceptions were made for retired law enforcement officers). The FSA also imposed other restrictions, such as banning certain standard-capacity magazines.

Such laws are common in blue states, of course, and when challenged in the Federal courts on the grounds that they violate the Second Amendment they are typically subject only to intermediate (or lesser) scrutiny. Generally speaking, if the State can articulate virtually any purportedly reasonable basis for the gun law, it survives scrutiny. Merely uttering the words “public safety” is usually sufficient for this purpose.

Of course, normally laws that arguably infringe an enumerated Constitutional rights are not subject to mere intermediate scrutiny, but rather they are subject to strict scrutiny. To survive strict scrutiny the law must advance not merely any governmental interest, but in particular a compelling governmental interest.

It is perhaps arguable that “public safety” would serve to meet this requirement. In addition, however, the law must also be narrowly tailored to actually achieve that interest. It is this second requirement that almost invariably leads to the law in question being found to be unconstitutional.

In a nutshell, then, if intermediate scrutiny is applied to almost any law, the law survives. If strict scrutiny is applied to almost any law, the law falls.

To nobody’s surprise, that’s precisely what happened with the FSA was challenged in Federal court in Kolbe v. Hogan, in which the plaintiff gun owners never even got to argue on the merits. There the federal court granted summary judgment to the state, concluding that under intermediate scrutiny the FSA was not an unconstitutional infringement of the Second Amendment. See Kolbe v. O’Malley, 42 F. Supp. 3d 768 (D. Md. 2014).

It is a true oddity of constitutional law that the rights enumerated in the Constitution are almost invariably privileged to strict scrutiny–except for the rights enumerated in the Second Amendment.

This state of affairs has allowed the implementing of constraints on the Second Amendment right to keep and bear arms that would never have been tolerated in the context of First Amendment rights to freedom of religion, speech, or assembly, or Fourth Amendment rights against governmental search and seizure, Fifth Amendment rights to due process and against self-incrimination and double jeopardy, and so forth.

Indeed, Second Amendment advocates have long noted this disparity of treatment, and have long fought to eradicate it. We know full well that should strict scrutiny be applied to the Second Amendment, the vast majority of gun laws currently on the books would inescapably be found to be unconstitutional infringements of the Second Amendment, and discarded.

In short, the application of strict scrutiny to the Second Amendment, just as it is applied to the other rights enumerated in the Constitution, would be a complete game changer on gun rights on a national scale.

Today, the United States Court of Appeals for 4th Circuit did exactly that, applying strict scrutiny to Maryland’s “Firearms Safety Act,” in a two-to-one decision that could change the face of gun laws for Maryland (arguably one of the most anti-gun states in the nation), and perhaps portend similar relief for the beleaguered residents of New York, New Jersey, California, and the few other remaining anti-gun states. This decision is embedded at the bottom of this post.

In brief, the court’s 2-to-1 majority concluded first that the guns and magazines banned by the FSA fall within the scope of the Second Amendment, and second that:

Strict scrutiny, then, is the appropriate level of scrutiny to apply to the ban of semi- automatic rifles and magazines holding more than 10 rounds.

That’s all I have time for in this post, but I encourage all of you to read the 4th Circuit’s opinion in its entirety:

http://legalinsurrection.com/2016/02/big-2a-win-4th-circuit-applies-strict-scrutiny-to-maryland-gun-control-law/
 
Originally Posted by Bikenut View Post
Since you are saying I should not be allowed to keep a gun in a tissue box are you going to tell me that I should not be allowed to keep a gun just laying on the kitchen table in plain view? Or a shotgun leaning in the corner?
Unless locked or disabled; a trigger lock or a bolt removed, for example, yes. Either on your person, or locked. I've been nothing but clear on that point. On your person, or locked.
Bold added by me for emphasis....

Originally Posted by Bikenut View Post
And you telling me I should not be allowed to keep a gun in plain view on my kitchen table or have a shotgun leaning in the corner shows you are not interested in rights but are only interested in being in control of how other people keep arms. That puts you in the same league as any other anti gunner... actually it puts you in a much worse category... that of a gun owner who supports anti gunners goals.
Hidden in a tissue box is not "in plain view" but that's besides the point. I argue that your gun should either be on your person or locked. If this exact same tissue-paper device had any kind of lock on it, I would be satisfied and sleep well :)
Bold added by me for emphasis....

Originally Posted by Hatchetman View Post
Wow, you really are stupid arent you/ YOUR WORDS SHOW ALL OF US WHO YOU ARE AND WHAT YOU STAND FOR! YOUR WORDS TELL US PLAINLY THAT YOU ARE "pro rights ONLY in the way YOU wish them to be exercised"
You say that like it's a bad thing.
Bold added by me for emphasis....

Originally Posted by Bikenut View Post
You have bought into the idea that it is "reasonable", "appropriate", and "acceptable", to control rights with limits/restrictions/conditions/criteria... as long as you agree with those limits/restrictions/conditions/criteria. Which tells me that you are not interested in the right to keep arms but are only interested in requiring other people keep their arms in ways you personally agree with. Kinda like how the government, including the Supreme Court, is only interested in requiring people keep (and bear) arms in ways that they consider "reasonable", "appropriate", and "acceptable"... and that is easily translated as ways the right can be limited and undermined in order to be controlled.
You say that like it's a bad thing.
Bold added by me for emphasis....

And there it is plain as day. You, by your own words, are willing to ignore the Constitution in order to limit (infringe) the right to keep arms to either being on the person or locked up because you have convinced yourself that storage devices (the things that a person uses to "keep" their arms) you do not approve of (like hidden/stored/KEPT in a tissue box) are not covered by the right to keep arms in order to validate your belief that it is Ok to require people to ... keep... their arms only in the ways that you personally consider acceptable. That is not only the thought process of an anti gunner desperately searching for anything to justify the desire to control the right to keep arms but is also the attitude of a would be tyrant.

Tyrant | Definition of Tyrant by Merriam-Webster

Full Definition of tyrant

1
a : an absolute ruler unrestrained by law or constitution
-snip-
Underline added by me for emphasis....
 
Freedom is not contingent on killing someone. It's contingent on self sovereignty.
That's it exactly.

EXACTLY!

We are not sovereign. We The People formed a government, and invested some of our own powers into that government. We are no longer sovereign, we are citizens.

We reserve the right to remove the existing government and do as we wish from there, but today we are citizens, not sovereign.
 
..And unfortunately you do not understand the cites and links from the dictionary that I already posted...
I dismissed the dictionary you used, which places every post you've made using that dictionary in the trash, as if you never made those posts.
Common vernacular and legal definitions almost always differ from eachother. It's one reason English sucks as a language.
 
Bold added by me for emphasis....

Bold added by me for emphasis....

Bold added by me for emphasis....

Bold added by me for emphasis....
It's not necessary to point out the use of bold, color, etc; just as it's not necessary to note when you molti-quote a spicific portion of a post instead of posting the whole thing.

And there it is plain as day. You, by your own words, are willing to ignore the Constitution in order to limit (infringe)..
A limit is not necessarily an infringement. If the amendment means "shall not be limited" then that's what it would say instead of "infringed". A limit might be an infringement, but not all limits are. No right is unlimited. Not a single one.
 
Originally Posted by Bikenut View Post
..And unfortunately you do not understand the cites and links from the dictionary that I already posted...
I dismissed the dictionary you used, which places every post you've made using that dictionary in the trash, as if you never made those posts.
Common vernacular and legal definitions almost always differ from eachother. It's one reason English sucks as a language.
How convenient..... just dismiss definitions because you do not agree with them.

You (and unfortunately many other gun owners) have accepted that the right to keep and bear arms can be limited (infringed) simply because it has already been limited (infringed). In other words... it is Ok to limit (infringe) even more because the government has already done it. But in order to justify those limits (infringements) (soothe the conscience) some kind of standard that seems ... fair... needs to be used never understanding that regardless of what standard is used limits of any kind are still infringements.
 
Originally Posted by Bikenut View Post
Bold added by me for emphasis....

Bold added by me for emphasis....

Bold added by me for emphasis....

Bold added by me for emphasis....
It's not necessary to point out the use of bold, color, etc; just as it's not necessary to note when you molti-quote a spicific portion of a post instead of posting the whole thing.
Just as I should be the judge of if I consider it ... necessary... to use bold, color, or anything else, in my postings so should I be the judge of what storage devices I consider ... necessary... to "keep" my "arms" (pistols in tissue boxes, rifles on kitchen tables, shotguns leaning in corners). Got that? I should be the judge... not you, not the government, not some standard set up in order to justify telling me what is and what isn't ... allowed. Because whenever some entity starts telling me what is not allowed the whatever is not allowed is a limit... an infringement.
 
That's it exactly.

EXACTLY!

We are not sovereign. We The People formed a government, and invested some of our own powers into that government. We are no longer sovereign, we are citizens.

We reserve the right to remove the existing government and do as we wish from there, but today we are citizens, not sovereign.
Ok... now I understand your perspective. You think the government is the end all/be all with the power to limit the rights of "we the people" as long as those limits can be shown by some made up standard to be reasonable, appropriate, and especially acceptable.... to you.

However.... you are ignoring that people, individual human beings, have rights even in the absence of any government limiting and controlling (infringing) those rights. In short... we, as human beings, have rights even if there is absolutely no government of any kind. But having a government does not excuse limiting (infringing) those rights and it certainly does not excuse supporting the government limiting (infringing) just because there is a government.

It is "we the people" who are supposed to be limiting the government.... not the other way around.
 
Strict Scrutiny is what struck down the Chicago handgun ban: The Heller Decision and Strict Scrutiny - The Truth About Guns

I'm not reading the rest of your post as you clearly do not know what you're talking about.

Apparently you didn't even read your own link. They excerpt from the Heller ruling itself the following passage:

The District’s total ban on handgun possession in the home amounts to a prohibition on an entire class of ‘arms’ that Americans overwhelmingly choose for the lawful purpose of self-defense. Under any of the standards of scrutiny the Court has applied to enumerated constitutional rights, this prohibition—in the place where the importance of the lawful defense of self, family, and property is most acute—would fail constitutional muster...
(emphasis mine)

The court didn't even define which level of scrutiny they applied in Heller, and guess what genius? Heller is not what struck down the Chicago gun ban. That would be McDonald, which also did not include any allusion to strict scrutiny.

It's utterly baffling why you would refuse to read something, then quote from the same paragraph that includes a Link Removed that you're wrong about strict scrutiny ever being applied to the Second Amendment at the federal appeals court level before Link Removed, and go on to prove that it's clearly you who doesn't know what he's talking about while accusing the guy who has provided you proof that he does of the same thing.

You're a poser. You pretend to know what you're talking about and won't accept anything that challenges your mistaken understandings of the truth of the matter. Maybe you're resisting facing the truth just because you don't like the way I've presented it to you, or maybe it's just some weird little idiosyncrasy that you have that won't allow you to admit in public when you've made an honest, though repetitive, mistake. But the fact is, everybody who has been or will ever read this thread, and followed the links, knows without a doubt that you're full of bull at this point. Repeating your refusal to face the truth of the matter can in no way be excused as just a mistake anymore. You've proven now that you don't care about the truth enough to even read the links you use to ostensibly support your own case.

Carry on poser.

Blues
 
I have been following this convoluted post. From what I can see, everyone has a right to be stupid. Let me give some examples; it is perfectly legal to crawl under a car that is jacked up on a wobbly bumper jack, it is perfectly legal to ride a bicycle on a heavily trafficked two lane road that has no shoulder, It is perfectly legal to store your gun anywhere you please, even in a tissue box. There are people that do these things every day, there are even people that carry their gun stuck in their belt sans holster. The real benefit of these actions is to the gene pool. Darwin is right.
 
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