How do you carry in your car?
- Thread starter ET
- Start date
ET
Banned
I live in Pennsylvania.. we have a license to carry, meaning we can carry open or concealed...IM retired military. I've been carrying most of my life.. I became a civilian in 1977 And have had a license to carry ever since... Since I don't live in Florida, and I know your only adding discussion to the thread.. its interesting to know how some peoples rights are handcuffed by state laws...The good news is that neither of us live in New Jersey.
Bill aka E-T
Bill aka E-T
Don't be so sensitive E.T. :nhl_checking: I just joined the forum 6 months or so ago and started several threads that had been done before. And I'm not going to look back at threads from 7 months or years ago to see if it had already been discussed. New people join the forum and rehash the same old stuff quite a bit.
When bohf posted this I don't think he was critiquing your post, but was meaning in general to anyone who transitions or is considering it.
Personally, I carry in a concealed carry pack that's worn front center. I do have to pull a tab to unzip the pack. I like to carry a full size pistol and for me the pack is much easier because I don't have to try to hide it under my pants or shirt- might be ok with a small pistol but I tried it for awhile with mine and it wasn't comfortable inside the waist band.
Indiana is an open carry state, but in our code they 'suggest' we conceal carry and say cops will stop and question us pretty much all the time if they see us open carry. And, so, I've never seen anyone but a cop open carry.
I hadn't thought about having a car holster - but, since reading this thread, am thinking it might be a good idea so I'm going to think on it for awhile. Will also consider what bohf mentioned about leaving my gun in the car that way, because I have forgot my gun at my girlfriend's house a couple of times. :wacko:
ET
Banned
For those of us who have taken a life , and for those of us who have defended our self with lethal force, the theoretical game is far from the actual game... I've mentioned many times, shot placement is a nice thing( easy thing ) when the target isn't shooting back.. but don't depend on shot placement under stress... I spent two tours in South east Asia, I am a retired disable veteran spending 22 months in combat( 65-66 and 66-67 ) then continuing my service career until 1977. I've also had to draw my weapon in self defense of myself once and my wife and kids once in the last 35 years of civilian life.
I said that if IM going to take a swing at someone in defense of my life... I want to swing a Big hammer not a tack hammer, that's why IM swinging a 45 ACP.... John Hinckley shot James Brady at point blank range (* less than a foot ) a direct shot in the head.. then unloaded his 22 automatic at President Reagan. One rounf entered his left chest, and came within 1/2 inch from his heart and lodged in his left chest.. as we al know both men lived... there is no kinetic shock wave with a 22... had it been a 45 acp that shot path would have been .750 wide with Kinetic shock waves of an inch on either side of the bullet path...
Two cops in Ohio went up against a guy with an AK-47 who demanded the cops kill him.. ( suicide by cop ) the bad guy stood out in the open 20 feet from the police car.. and fired at the police cars tires and radiator.. the two cops, one a sergeant ( seasoned veteran and a female rookie ) fired 56 shoots with their 9 mm service weapons .and in 56 shots, only six hit the attacker.. 4 of the shot were non lethal. and two ( a chest shot and a head shot were lethal.) so even seasoned cops with lots of training from the cover of a police car were not able to bring down the bad guy with shot placement after they expended 56 rounds.. I've been on S&D mission with an 8 man patrol carrying 2400 rounds of ammo, and took out small strike teams of NVA killing 5 or 6 and expending 1500 round to do so. So don't depend on shot placement.. think about using the biggest hammer you can carry and be confident... BTW practicing shot placement is something I do every week... there is nothing wrong with practice and muscle memory.. but when the juices a re flowing , you are not looking at the sights, you are ( or should be ) looking at the threat.. because unlike a station target at the range.. a bad guy is not going to stand there and let you kill him. So ( my recommendation is ) 3 shot bursts, looking at the b ad guy and not the sights.. don't unload your weapon in one burst because most attacks are over in a few seconds.. you don't want to unload your weapon and have and empty weapon when the bad guy finds you.. you are not going to be able to reload in a street fight.. I practice three shot burst @ 21 feet and reassess the threat, firing 3 more shot, and assess.. and if the threat isn't neutralized I wan to have three oir four round left when the threat is 4 feet away. and hopefully one of my 45 acp rounds slowed him down...
I said that if IM going to take a swing at someone in defense of my life... I want to swing a Big hammer not a tack hammer, that's why IM swinging a 45 ACP.... John Hinckley shot James Brady at point blank range (* less than a foot ) a direct shot in the head.. then unloaded his 22 automatic at President Reagan. One rounf entered his left chest, and came within 1/2 inch from his heart and lodged in his left chest.. as we al know both men lived... there is no kinetic shock wave with a 22... had it been a 45 acp that shot path would have been .750 wide with Kinetic shock waves of an inch on either side of the bullet path...
Two cops in Ohio went up against a guy with an AK-47 who demanded the cops kill him.. ( suicide by cop ) the bad guy stood out in the open 20 feet from the police car.. and fired at the police cars tires and radiator.. the two cops, one a sergeant ( seasoned veteran and a female rookie ) fired 56 shoots with their 9 mm service weapons .and in 56 shots, only six hit the attacker.. 4 of the shot were non lethal. and two ( a chest shot and a head shot were lethal.) so even seasoned cops with lots of training from the cover of a police car were not able to bring down the bad guy with shot placement after they expended 56 rounds.. I've been on S&D mission with an 8 man patrol carrying 2400 rounds of ammo, and took out small strike teams of NVA killing 5 or 6 and expending 1500 round to do so. So don't depend on shot placement.. think about using the biggest hammer you can carry and be confident... BTW practicing shot placement is something I do every week... there is nothing wrong with practice and muscle memory.. but when the juices a re flowing , you are not looking at the sights, you are ( or should be ) looking at the threat.. because unlike a station target at the range.. a bad guy is not going to stand there and let you kill him. So ( my recommendation is ) 3 shot bursts, looking at the b ad guy and not the sights.. don't unload your weapon in one burst because most attacks are over in a few seconds.. you don't want to unload your weapon and have and empty weapon when the bad guy finds you.. you are not going to be able to reload in a street fight.. I practice three shot burst @ 21 feet and reassess the threat, firing 3 more shot, and assess.. and if the threat isn't neutralized I wan to have three oir four round left when the threat is 4 feet away. and hopefully one of my 45 acp rounds slowed him down...
Firefighterchen
OC for Tactical Advantage
This in no way qualifies you on ballistics.
Utter nonsense. Anyone reading this should not have this mindset. Shot placement and speed mean everything to survive in a self defense situation.
Again, means absolutely nothing when it comes to ballistics.
That's the problem, you just take swings. If I want to hit a nail, I want the biggest hammer I can place onto the nail head...I don't go for an 8 pound sledge hammer if I don't know I can hit the nail. 100% placement issue. A hit with a 9mm does infinitely more help than a miss with a .45.
Kinetic shock wave...Another made up term...hydrostatic shock is the term E T is looking for, and in common self defense handgun calibers it's too insignificant to matter.
John Brady was immediately incapacitated and remained paralyzed on his left side till he died of injuries relating to the gsw. Reagan was shot in the chest after a bullet ricochet off his limo, puncturing a lung with heavy internal bleeding. If Reagan didn't receive medical attention immediately like he did, he probably would not have survived.
Both cases show shot placement with even a .22 can incapacitate.
100% shot placement. They MISSED 50 times...If those were 50 BMG rounds they still would be missed shots. The ONLY shots that mattered were the ones that hit the right spot (aka shot placement). I guarantee the head shot and chest shot had permanent wound cavities through a vital organ.
Means nothing for ballistics or civilian situations.
Confident in what? Confident you can can hit what you are aiming at? That's shot placement.
I really hope you are not instructing anybody. There is a time and place for point shooting, a time in place for front sight press, and a time and place for full sight aiming. Any respectable instructor would never tell their students not to depend on shot placement. Speed is fine, ACCURACY is final.
How many times do you think you can shoot the rounds and reassess in 7 seconds? Do you always shoot from the hip since you don't aim with the sights?
Speed is fine, accuracy is final. Shoot until the threat is stopped, no more no less. Then reassess.
Link Removed
http://www.defensivecarry.com/forum...uracy-more-important-you-when-training-2.html
http://www.hipowersandhandguns.com/Good Target or Combat Shot.htm
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Nightmare45
NRA LIFE MEMBER
Very well thank you.
JCliff
New member
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E-T, I respect your service and sacrifices you have made for our country. I strongly disagree with what you have to say with respect to shot placement. I can assure you that not a single elite military or police unit in our country (or anywhere I know of) trains according to your philosophy. I personally know of no firearms instructors who preach what you are preaching. Nobody I know of trains to just “spray and pray,” without any reference to their sights in a gunfight, unless their adversary is essentially so close they can feel their breath. Yeah, you need to keep your eyes on the threat. Acquiring at least your front sight should not cause you to lose sight of the threat, and you need to be doing more than just looking at the threat. You need to be shooting, moving, or shooting and moving. Try testing your theory at an IDPA or USPSA match (which does not present nearly the pressure of a firefight, but it does introduce some). You will find you simply cannot miss fast enough. You need to be quick, yes… but you also need to be accurate, and you will need to use your front sight at the very least in order to do that, and you will need to combine it with trigger press control.
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Your example of the two police officers facing down the guy with the AK-47 is a poor argument against shot placement, but an argument FOR disciplined shot placement. The scenario you portrayed was an example of poor training and lax firearm handling/skill standards. It’s also an example of how that poor training can cause police to end up being as much or greater threat to the safety of the community than the criminal they are trying to stop/apprehend (New York City police not long ago served as an excellent example of this: http://www.cnn.com/2012/08/25/justice/new-york-empire-state-shooting/). Firearms skill standards vary enormously across various police agencies and even within agencies. Some are good, some have good elements, and some (far, far more than there should be) are downright horrendous.
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In the heat of a fight, “when the juices are flowing,” you will revert to whatever level you have trained to, minus a degradation factor. If your training was crap, your performance will almost certainly be crap. If your training was good, your performance will usually be somewhere between 50% and 80% of your best day in training, depending on how often you trained, how intensely you trained, how (as Vince Lombardi would have said) perfectly you trained. The trick is to have your 50%, 80% or whatever be better than what your adversary brings that day. Is training a guarantee you won’t be wounded or killed in a gunfight? Obviously no. But it is a way to help stack the odds in your favor and against your adversary.
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For most people, particularly for people who don’t have the time or the money to train often, and for nearly any self-defense scenario beyond just a few feet, I recommend training to acquire and focus hard on the front sight, and keeping that front sight on target while achieving a quality trigger press. Those two elements can be practiced effectively with dry fire practice, which costs you nothing except your time, and with disciplined observance are remarkably effective at putting rounds on target under pressure. If you train to that, that’s what you’ll do “when the juices are flowing.” It isn’t just about how fast or how many rounds you shoot…Effective fire is what stops a determined adversary. Your own example proves that. Misses do nothing, and represent a lethal hazard to everyone else around you. If you truly believe your own argument, why do you ever practice shot placement?
ET
Banned
Im guessing you can not grasp the concept... I never once said spray and prey.. NEVER Once.. Secondly I said shoot in burst of three ands used control fire... IN my two tour I was part of a special ops team and spent much time in Cambodia, and Laos.. chasing retreating NVA into places we were not suppose to be... it was called Hot persuit.. Ive been trained to use control fire suppression.. so to say that no one is taught this was says a lot about your instruction.. Seal teams use control fire and so does delta.. in special ops you cant carry a lot of ammo. it's swift and stealth. Ive used that through out my Military career, qualified expert in every small arms ordinance. from 1965 until 1977 when I was retired for physical disability...
ON to civilian life.. two occasions in 40 years of licensed carry... My military training kicked in twice... With proper muscle training with a threat under 21 feet, even under stress, control of the threat is accomplished by looking at the threat, and point your weapon where your muscles say. three shot burst and adjust.. it called in the military " Fire for effect " Never heard of that??? Wow.. no matter what the weapon 9mm, 45 ACP 4.2 mortar, 88 mm mortar. al weapon use something called a fire mission... command.. fire for effect.. Never heard of that. IN controlling a street fight, fire for effect allows you access the position of the moving threat.. not where the sights are... also ammo management allows you to keep a few round for final defense.. I see many instructor teach unload your weapon on the threat using fire suppression... That's Hollywood.... students find that fun to unload a weapon.. but if you have a weapon that is empty... you might as well not have a weapon at all.. because when a bad guy is in the threat zone...21 feet, you wont have time to reload, because a human can travel 21 feet in two seconds. if you unload your weapon at a threat and are looking at the sights and not the threat.. and you miss .. the bad guy is on you and you are fumbling to reload and he put two in your head at 1 foot distance..
If you think I'm joking .. go to a range where they allow automatic weapons.. I've seen these guys squeeze the trigger until all 30 rounds are gone.. and smile and say lets do that again...
The military never teaches spray and pray, unless you are a door gunner with twin mini guns.. No one sprays and prays.. in the military we are taught fire control.. the civilian You tube vids I see show teachers unloading full clips at threats.. why? because it brings in customers... teach Sally with her pink 22 to unload her 6 round mag at a bad guy and Sally is going to be dead.
IM 70 years old, and while I respect differences of opinion.. IM still here.... still alive and still defending my self and my family using techniques that are second nature to me. I don't play G.I Joe.. or Tactical Tom. I see a lot of that in these gun forums.. Un less you have been under fire, and have taken a life... you cant teach defense under the same conditions unless you are using targets that shoot back because the big difference in shot placement with a non moving target that doesnt shoot back, and is at a known distance. And an actual bad guy is the panic and adrenalin that over emphasizes your muscle control. That's why so many rounds are missed in an actual street fight... 375 round fired in a gang street fight in LA no one killed and only three people hit.. that's very typical....
OK I wont preach.. IM not here to try to sway anyone my way .. I'm just offering my real life experiences.. But please don't say the Military does not teach fire control, fire suppression, fire for effect, ammo discipline... IN my entire military career, no one ever taught me to unload my weapon on a single target. But then we didn't play Hollywood. Back in my day.. Playing John Wayne was considered an insult.....
Bill
I hope Sally will survive...
ON to civilian life.. two occasions in 40 years of licensed carry... My military training kicked in twice... With proper muscle training with a threat under 21 feet, even under stress, control of the threat is accomplished by looking at the threat, and point your weapon where your muscles say. three shot burst and adjust.. it called in the military " Fire for effect " Never heard of that??? Wow.. no matter what the weapon 9mm, 45 ACP 4.2 mortar, 88 mm mortar. al weapon use something called a fire mission... command.. fire for effect.. Never heard of that. IN controlling a street fight, fire for effect allows you access the position of the moving threat.. not where the sights are... also ammo management allows you to keep a few round for final defense.. I see many instructor teach unload your weapon on the threat using fire suppression... That's Hollywood.... students find that fun to unload a weapon.. but if you have a weapon that is empty... you might as well not have a weapon at all.. because when a bad guy is in the threat zone...21 feet, you wont have time to reload, because a human can travel 21 feet in two seconds. if you unload your weapon at a threat and are looking at the sights and not the threat.. and you miss .. the bad guy is on you and you are fumbling to reload and he put two in your head at 1 foot distance..
If you think I'm joking .. go to a range where they allow automatic weapons.. I've seen these guys squeeze the trigger until all 30 rounds are gone.. and smile and say lets do that again...
The military never teaches spray and pray, unless you are a door gunner with twin mini guns.. No one sprays and prays.. in the military we are taught fire control.. the civilian You tube vids I see show teachers unloading full clips at threats.. why? because it brings in customers... teach Sally with her pink 22 to unload her 6 round mag at a bad guy and Sally is going to be dead.
IM 70 years old, and while I respect differences of opinion.. IM still here.... still alive and still defending my self and my family using techniques that are second nature to me. I don't play G.I Joe.. or Tactical Tom. I see a lot of that in these gun forums.. Un less you have been under fire, and have taken a life... you cant teach defense under the same conditions unless you are using targets that shoot back because the big difference in shot placement with a non moving target that doesnt shoot back, and is at a known distance. And an actual bad guy is the panic and adrenalin that over emphasizes your muscle control. That's why so many rounds are missed in an actual street fight... 375 round fired in a gang street fight in LA no one killed and only three people hit.. that's very typical....
OK I wont preach.. IM not here to try to sway anyone my way .. I'm just offering my real life experiences.. But please don't say the Military does not teach fire control, fire suppression, fire for effect, ammo discipline... IN my entire military career, no one ever taught me to unload my weapon on a single target. But then we didn't play Hollywood. Back in my day.. Playing John Wayne was considered an insult.....
Bill
I hope Sally will survive...
ET
Banned
One other point as a read over your post.. why do I practice shot placement...?? Like I said I am now 70 years old... My EDC is a 1911 45 ACP.. the same caliber pistol I used and qualified with through out my military career. I go to my range every week...shoot 50 rounds of my defense ammo load. and why?.. because when you get old ,like me an have cancer ( agent orange ) your muscles get weak.. so I need to try to keep muscles I don't usually use working and toned.. even at my age I'm a fairly good shot...I need this repetition to keep my edge... I also enjoy shooting.. I've been a member of my gun club since 1977...
here is a shot I took at my gun club of the new roof on our pistol range.. this was not a set up shot.. I just took this candidly t show some folks on another forum when someone noted my target in the trunk.. people on this forum know I practice at 21 feet all the time.. and pointed out the target.. so I blew up the shot to show, I can hit a target, but still do not depend on shot placement...
I depend more on big caliber....because I can not manhandle a big guy all juiced up and pissed off if he gets to me... I would rather have bad shot placement with poor hits. with a 45 ACP then bad placement with a .380 or 9mm. Big caliper hits are better then small caliber hits..
here is a shot I took at my gun club of the new roof on our pistol range.. this was not a set up shot.. I just took this candidly t show some folks on another forum when someone noted my target in the trunk.. people on this forum know I practice at 21 feet all the time.. and pointed out the target.. so I blew up the shot to show, I can hit a target, but still do not depend on shot placement...
I depend more on big caliber....because I can not manhandle a big guy all juiced up and pissed off if he gets to me... I would rather have bad shot placement with poor hits. with a 45 ACP then bad placement with a .380 or 9mm. Big caliper hits are better then small caliber hits..
Firefighterchen
OC for Tactical Advantage
I feel like I'm reading the movie Expendables between ET and Stenguns real life experiences...when is Chuck Norris joining this site?
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I think ya'll are saying the same thing but being soooo wordy that u don't know it. Shot placement is important. Good shot placement with a larger caliber will likely do more damage than good placement with a smaller caliber, but both will do damage. And missing with a larger caliber will have about the same effect as missing with a smaller caliber. Does this pretty much cover it ? Oh yeah, and shoot in bursts of two or three insteada all 17 of your rounds. My x rambo friend says two at a time, but close enough to 3 i guess :dirol:
Firefighterchen
OC for Tactical Advantage
Yes...They just come here for the dialogue.
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Firefighterchen
OC for Tactical Advantage
Unfortunately he isn't saying the same thing...he places larger caliber over placement...
Completely ignoring that a single vital hit with .22 will immediately incapacitate, and 6 non vital 9mm rounds, or 100 missed .45's rarely incapacitate.
Or maybe I'm reading it wrong...Maybe what he is saying is no matter what caliber he chooses, he will have crappy aim.
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BluesStringer
Les Brers
Well, Ronda Rousey being on set made them feel a lot younger, I'm sure. I'll bet she kept the ol' farts in line too.
NotTwoShure
Well-known member
FBI shoot out, one agent placed his sidearm on the seat prior to the battle, during the incident it was knocked to the floor mat, I would keep in high rise holster.
ET
Banned
When I went to see the review of this forum the review said it was just another gun forum boys club.... they were wrong.. its not a boys club, its a Punk boys club.. you know the punks you see on the street disrespecting old people and laughing at them, they walk around with their pants around their knees and grab their crotch... then come here to disrespect old people and disabled combat vets... then say hope I have a sense of humor??? sense of humor??? I have stage 3 cancer defending this country, and you laugh? Boys club indeed..
Firefighterchen
OC for Tactical Advantage
Aww someone came here on a pedestal...and when it was knocked over they couldn't take it.
You came here to pick fights. This isn't the NVA, we won't turn and run, deal with it.
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You came here to pick fights. This isn't the NVA, we won't turn and run, deal with it.
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