The 7th Circuit Court says you have no 4th amendment rights

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In a unanimous decision earlier this month the Court determined that law enforcement officers are not required to present a warrant or charges before forcibly entering a person’s home, searching it, and confiscating their firearms if they believe it is in the individual’s best interests.

The landmark suit was brought before the court by Krysta Sutterfield of Milwaukee, who had recently visited a psychiatrist for outpatient therapy resulting from some bad news that she had received. According to court records Sutterfield had expressed a suicidal thought during the visit, perhaps tongue-in-cheek, when she said “I guess I’ll go home and blow my brains out.” This prompted her doctor to contact police.

For several hours the police searched for Sutterfield, speaking with neighbors and awaiting her return home. They received an update from her psychiatrist who said that Sutterfield had contacted her and advised that she was not in need of assistance and to “call off” the search, which the doctor did not agree to. Police eventually left and Sutterfield returned home, only to be visited later that evening by the lead detective on the case:

Krysta Sutterfield vs. city of Milwaukee, et al.

Sutterfield answered Hewitt’s knock at the front door but would not engage with her, except to state repeatedly that she had “called off” the police and to keep shutting the door on Hewitt. Sutterfield would not admit Hewitt to the residence, and during the exchange kept the outer storm door closed and locked. Unable to gain admittance to the house, Hewitt concluded that the police would have to enter it forcibly.



Sutterfield called 911 in an effort to have the officers leave; as a result of that call, the ensuing events were recorded by the emergency call center. Sutterfield can be heard on the recording telling the officers that she was fine and that she did not want anyone to enter her residence.



After informing Sutterfield of his intention to open the storm door forcibly if she did not unlock it herself, Berken yanked the door open and entered the house with the other officers to take custody of Sutterfield pursuant to the statement of detention. A brief struggle ensued.

Sutterfield can be heard on the 911 recording demanding both that the officers let go of her and that they leave her home. (Sutterfield would later say that the officers tackled her.) Sutterfield was handcuffed and placed in the officers’ custody.



At that point the officers conducted a protective sweep of the home. In the kitchen, officer James Floriani observed a compact disc carrying case in plain view. He picked up the soft-sided case, which was locked, and surmised from the feel and weight of its contents that there might be a firearm inside. He then forced the case open and discovered a semi-automatic handgun inside; a yellow smiley-face sticker was affixed to the barrel of the gun, covering the muzzle. Also inside the case were concealed-carry firearm licenses from multiple jurisdictions other than Wisconsin. Elsewhere in the kitchen the officers discovered a BB gun made to realistically resemble a Glock 29 handgun.

The contents of the case were seized along with the BB gun and placed into police inventory for safekeeping.

Berken would later state that he authorized the seizure of the handgun in order to keep them out of the hands of a juvenile, should a juvenile enter the house unaccompanied by an adult while Sutterfield remained in the hospital.

Sutterfield subsequently filed a lawsuit against the City of Milwaukee with the district court, a case that was initially dismissed. She then filed an appeal with the U.S. Court of Appeals for the 7th District claiming that her Second and Fourth Amendment rights were violated.

In a 75-page opinion the court, while pointing out that the intrusion against Sutterfield was profound, sided with the city of Milwaukee:

“The intrusions upon Sutterfield’s privacy were profound,” Judge Ilana Rovner wrote for three-judge panel.

“At the core of the privacy protected by the Fourth Amendment is the right to be let alone in one’s home.”

But the court also found, that on the other hand, “There is no suggestion that (police) acted for any reason other than to protect Sutterfield from harm.”

“Even if the officers did exceed constitutional boundaries,” the court document states, “they are protected by qualified immunity.”

As noted by Police State USA, the court may have just created a legal loophole for law enforcement officials around the country, giving them immunity from Constitutional violations if they merely suggest that exigent circumstances exist and that they are acting in the best interests of the health and safety of an alleged suspect, regardless of Constitutional requirements:

In short, Sutterfield’s privacy (which was admittedly encroached upon) was left unprotected by the Bill of Rights because of the “exigent circumstances” in which police executed an emergency detention — with no warrant, no criminal charges, and no input from the judiciary. Similarly, the gun confiscation was also deemed as acceptable due to the so-called “emergency” which police claimed had been taking place for 9 consecutive hours.

The federal ruling affirms a legal loophole which allows targeted home invasions, warrantless searches, and gun confiscations that rest entirely in the hands of the Executive Branch. The emergency aid doctrine enables police to act without a search warrant, even if there is time to get one. When the government wants to check on someone, his or her rights are essentially suspended until the person’s sanity has been forcibly validated.

The implications of the courts legal decision are alarmingly broad. Though this particular case involved exigent circumstances in which an individual suggested she wanted to commit suicide, albeit tongue-in-cheek, the court’s opinion suggests that such tactics can be applied for any “emergency” wherein police subjectively determine that an individual may be a danger to themselves or others.

Under new statutes passed by the federal government these emergencies and dangers could potentially include any number of scenarios. Senator Rand Paul recently highlighted that there are laws on the books that categorize a number of different activities as having the potential for terrorism, including things like purchasing bulk ammunition. Last month, when a group of concerned citizens assembled at Bundy Ranch in Nevada to protest government overreach, Senator Harry Reid dubbed them“domestic terrorists.” Even paying with cash or complaining about chemicals in watercan land an American on the terror watch list. Non-conformists who do not subscribe to the status quo can now be considered mentally insane according to psychiatrists’ Diagnostic and Statistics Manual of Mental Disorders.

Law enforcement has an almost unlimited amount of circumstances they can cite to justify threats to one’s self or others, and thus, to ignore Constitutional requirements when serving at the behest of the local, state or federal government.

Has the Federal Court’s latest decision made it possible for these vaguely defined suspicious activities to be molded into exigent circumstances that give police the right to enter homes without due process, confiscate legally owned personal belongings, and detain residents without charge?

Read more at Link Removed
 
I think when you make that statement to a shrink you're gonna get a visit. I believe the fourth amendment was observed and that probable cause existed for her safety, not to intentionally hurt her. This is part of the new approach to mental illness.
 
I think when you make that statement to a shrink you're gonna get a visit. I believe the fourth amendment was observed and that probable cause existed for her safety, not to intentionally hurt her. This is part of the new approach to mental illness.


Might want to change your location to something other than "State of Confusion" then. We wouldn't want confused people running around with guns not knowing who to shoot....

Part of what is keeping people from getting real help for their problems now days is the fear of the action the government will take against them for expressing their problems. I know if I ever sought counseling I would be very careful what I said - which in most cases could really hinder the help that a person might be able to get. When I go to the medical doctor (at military health facility), I don't even wait for the questions - they walk in the room and I say, "I feel safe at home, there is no violence at home, I don't have nightmares, and I have no thoughts about hurting myself or others." They usually respond with, "You've been here before, haven't you!"
 
Might want to change your location to something other than "State of Confusion" then. We wouldn't want confused people running around with guns not knowing who to shoot....

Part of what is keeping people from getting real help for their problems now days is the fear of the action the government will take against them for expressing their problems. I know if I ever sought counseling I would be very careful what I said - which in most cases could really hinder the help that a person might be able to get. When I go to the medical doctor (at military health facility), I don't even wait for the questions - they walk in the room and I say, "I feel safe at home, there is no violence at home, I don't have nightmares, and I have no thoughts about hurting myself or others." They usually respond with, "You've been here before, haven't you!"
I just smile and say nothing. On to the medical issue at hand.
 
I believe the fourth amendment was observed and that probable cause existed for her safety, not to intentionally hurt her. This is part of the new approach to mental illness.

How can the 4th Amendment be "observed" under some "new approach" to what constitutes proper search, seizure, probable cause, warrants issued by a judge, names of persons or places to be searched etc. if that "new approach" isn't at all consistent with observance of the 4th Amendment? When was the last time you actually read the 4th Amendment? The only qualifier for who benefits from its protections is that you be a human being who is alive within the borders of the US and/or its protectorates. There's nothing there to qualify mentally ill persons for one type of treatment under the law, and everybody else for another kind.

"Observing" the 4th Amendment and operating under some "new approach" under its auspices is quite literally a mutually-exclusive premise.

Blues
 
Might want to change your location to something other than "State of Confusion" then. We wouldn't want confused people running around with guns not knowing who to shoot....

Part of what is keeping people from getting real help for their problems now days is the fear of the action the government will take against them for expressing their problems. I know if I ever sought counseling I would be very careful what I said - which in most cases could really hinder the help that a person might be able to get. When I go to the medical doctor (at military health facility), I don't even wait for the questions - they walk in the room and I say, "I feel safe at home, there is no violence at home, I don't have nightmares, and I have no thoughts about hurting myself or others." They usually respond with, "You've been here before, haven't you!"

I always had to add, "I'm not pregnant." Generally repeatedly. They seem to believe in immaculate conception.
 
So the courts and the police can now change or make up laws as they go to unlawfully arrest or detain people ???. I for one don`t plan to conform just because they say I have to, or I might end up in jail - BULLSCHIT, IM NOT DOING IT. The government, the courts, and the police are corrupt and out of control and out of touch with reality, and if it ever came down to it - I would take as many of them with me before the fight was over.
 
How can the 4th Amendment be "observed" under some "new approach" to what constitutes proper search, seizure, probable cause, warrants issued by a judge, names of persons or places to be searched etc. if that "new approach" isn't at all consistent with observance of the 4th Amendment? When was the last time you actually read the 4th Amendment? The only qualifier for who benefits from its protections is that you be a human being who is alive within the borders of the US and/or its protectorates. There's nothing there to qualify mentally ill persons for one type of treatment under the law, and everybody else for another kind.

"Observing" the 4th Amendment and operating under some "new approach" under its auspices is quite literally a mutually-exclusive premise.

Blues
I understand the fourth amendment. I also understand it means exactly what the courts interpret... possibly very liberal courts. And while I might not agree with this in principal, that doesn't matter anymore.
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In most states the law provides a defense of justification for assault when used to stop another person from harming themselves. Our laws have had this provision for many decades. To me it's a misguided attempt to stop her from self-harm. If I were a shrink I would absolutely make the call when a patient is exhibiting suicidal behaviors. What if as a doctor I knew and did nothing? I'd feel sick knowing some poor person met their end at their own hand, I knew it and failed to act.
 
Kicking in my door by anybody, no matter what they are yelling, no matter what time of day or night will get you KILLED.
 
Where does it end? What's next, govt, state and local police presuming that anyone with a thrill seeker personality like skydivers, motorcycle riders, pilots, base jumpers, stunt people, race car drivers etc are also suicidal so therefore should be stripped of all firearms and possibly garden tools?
 
Where does it end? What's next, govt, state and local police presuming that anyone with a thrill seeker personality like skydivers, motorcycle riders, pilots, base jumpers, stunt people, race car drivers etc are also suicidal so therefore should be stripped of all firearms and possibly garden tools?

I'm betting it'll end with them deciding that someone who wants to own a gun is mentally unstable and therefore disqualified from owning one.

Sent from my SCH-I545 using USA Carry mobile app
 
I'm betting it'll end with them deciding that someone who wants to own a gun is mentally unstable and therefore disqualified from owning one.

I'm betting you're probably right, telpinaro.

When I renewed my CPL, the attorney for the legal portion of the class stated that in his opinion, "government was in the process of making everyone a felon or would get them enmeshed in the mental health system", and THAT is how America would be disarmed.
 
I'm betting you're probably right, telpinaro.

When I renewed my CPL, the attorney for the legal portion of the class stated that in his opinion, "government was in the process of making everyone a felon or would get them enmeshed in the mental health system", and THAT is how America would be disarmed.

They've already tried making the definition of who is dangerously mentally ill exceptionally vague here. Luckily they were stopped, but I don't think they are done. The thing is, the antis should be just as worried about this as we are... I doubt they'll stop with taking our guns.
 
One of my definitions of mentally ill is someone whom, after reading my "file" STILL thinks it is a good idea to come try and kick my door in..........
 
Here's a flash for them. Homey is disturbed. He's violent. He has no gut value programming. He was born with fetal alcohol syndrome and crack addiction. He lacks proper frontal lobe development and thus has no impulse control. He has a low IQ. He dropped-out of school. He has no career or job. He's addicted to drugs. He has no money. He has a long criminal record. He has an illegal gun. HE DOESN'T SEEK MENTAL HEALTH CARE. He shops at Walleyworld. He saw your 17-year-old daughter while shopping there. He followed her home. He's outside yer house right now waiting for nightfall.
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Does it really matter at this point if your daughter is depressed over tuition costs?
 
Note almost every single mass murderer has been under the care of mental health professionals, they and their psychotropic drugs are the problem, direct connection. Ban Mental health professionals.
 
In short, Sutterfield’s privacy (which was admittedly encroached upon) was left unprotected by the Bill of Rights because of the “exigent circumstances” in which police executed an emergency detention — with no warrant, no criminal charges, and no input from the judiciary. Similarly, the gun confiscation was also deemed as acceptable due to the so-called “emergency” which police claimed had been taking place for 9 consecutive hours.
You need to read the decision a bit more closely. No warrant, criminal charges or input from the judiciary are required to execute an emergency detention, and the detention itself isn't subject to the 4th amendment. The entry into the house would be subject to the 4th, but since it was necessary to affect the detention, the court found it justified. They did not find the search and seizure of the gun justified as you reported.
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We shall assume, as the district court did, that the search of a closed container for a gun, and the ensuing seizure of that gun, violated Sutterfield’s Fourth Amendment rights.
http://www.courthousenews.com/home/OpenAppellateOpinion.aspx?OpinionStatusID=105749
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However, even though they violated her rights with the search and seizure, they are protected by qualified immunity, which basically means you can't sue a public official for performing his duties. That's the same decision the lower court made. It might have been a different story if she had suffered some kind of recompensable damages as a result of the search and seizure.
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The 4th amendment does not say that warrants are required for all searches. It says we are protected against unreasonable searches and lists some criteria that must be used when warrants are issued, but it never says they are required in all instances. If you read the speech James Madison gave to Congress on June 8, 1789, when he proposed the original 20 (later reduced to 10) amendments to the Constitution, the wording is somewhat different.
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The rights of the people to be secured in their persons, their houses, their papers, and their other property from all unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated by warrants issued without probable cause, supported by oath or affirmation, or not particularly describing the places to be searched, or the persons or things to be seized.
With this wording it's more clear that it's establishing conditions for warrants, not mandating warrants for all searches. Exigent circumstances is a concept the courts have given to us since then to describe one of the exceptions. Obviously it's no surprise that the propriety of this exception is debated, but it's not anything new, and neither is qualified immunity. So the ruling the 4th made in this instance doesn't represent anything new as the title of this thread seems to suggest. This decision, whether you agree with it or not, is just business as usual in the U.S. court system.
 
It can definitely be said that the "mental health" system as it is prevents people from getting help, not that it helps so much anyway. There is no confidentiality (you are better off talking to a lawyer or possibly priest) and if you are unlucky enough to be admitted against your will it is worse than jail. No right to remain silent, no phone call, no attorney. They may forcibly medicate you, disagreement with the doctors "diagnosis" is seen as a further symptom of "your illness", indefinite detention with no trail. Its no wonder psychiatry was used as an instrument of torture against political dissidents in the U.S.S.R.

Not to mention 8 of the top ten medication associated with violence are psych drugs. This list is from the website of TIME:

10. Desvenlafaxine (Pristiq) An antidepressant which affects both serotonin and noradrenaline, this drug is 7.9 times more likely to be associated with violence than other drugs.

9. Venlafaxine (Effexor) A drug related to Pristiq in the same class of antidepressants, both are also used to treat anxiety disorders. Effexor is 8.3 times more likely than other drugs to be related to violent behavior. (More on Time.com: Adderall May Not Make You Smarter, But It Makes You Think You Are)

8. Fluvoxamine (Luvox) An antidepressant that affects serotonin (SSRI), Luvox is 8.4 times more likely than other medications to be linked with violence

7. Triazolam (Halcion) A benzodiazepine which can be addictive, used to treat insomnia. Halcion is 8.7 times more likely to be linked with violence than other drugs, according to the study.

6) Atomoxetine (Strattera) Used to treat attention-deficit hyperactivity disorder (ADHD), Strattera affects the neurotransmitter noradrenaline and is 9 times more likely to be linked with violence compared to the average medication.

5) Mefoquine (Lariam) A treatment for malaria, Lariam has long been linked with reports of bizarre behavior. It is 9.5 times more likely to be linked with violence than other drugs.

4) Amphetamines: (Various) Amphetamines are used to treat ADHD and affect the brain’s dopamine and noradrenaline systems. They are 9.6 times more likely to be linked to violence, compared to other drugs.

3) Paroxetine (Paxil) An SSRI antidepressant, Paxil is also linked with more severe withdrawal symptoms and a greater risk of birth defects compared to other medications in that class. It is 10.3 times more likely to be linked with violence compared to other drugs. (More on Time.com: Healthland’s Guide to Life 2011)

2) Fluoxetine (Prozac) The first well-known SSRI antidepressant, Prozac is 10.9 times more likely to be linked with violence in comparison with other medications.

1) Varenicline (Chantix) The anti-smoking medication Chantix affects the nicotinic acetylcholine receptor, which helps reduce craving for smoking. Unfortunately, it’s 18 times more likely to be linked with violence compared to other drugs — by comparison, that number for Xyban is 3.9 and just 1.9 for nicotine replacement. Because Chantix is slightly superior in terms of quit rates in comparison to other drugs, it shouldn’t necessarily be ruled out as an option for those trying to quit, however.



It's amazing, as soon as I ditched the psychiatrists I started feeling better :crazy_pilot:
 

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