Let's talk about these "military style" rifles.

_Anthony_

New member
In hearing all this talk of "no citizen needs a military style ASSAULT" rifles I've found several US cases that seem to disagree. I'm no attorney, but let me know what you guys think:
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It seems to me that the courts are essentially saying "A sawed off shotgun has no purpose in providing for the common defense and thus the 2nd amendment does not apply". Also, "..when called for service these men were expected to appear bearing arms supplied by themselves and of the kind in common use at the time". To me it almost seems that if they want to challenge the constituationality of owning such weapons on the premise of "the founders couldn't have imagined..." that we ought to put a ban on weapons that COULDN'T be used in the military (although I hope we don't.....)
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US vs. Miller
"In the absence of any evidence tending to show that possession or use of a 'shotgun having a barrel of less than eighteen inches in length' at this time has some reasonable relationship to the preservation or efficiency of a well regulated militia, we cannot say that the Second Amendment guarantees the right to keep and bear such an instrument. Certainly it is not within judicial notice that this weapon is any part of the ordinary military equipment or that its use could contribute to the common defense... The signification attributed to the term Militia appears from the debates in the Convention, the history and legislation of Colonies and States, and the writings of approved commentators. These show plainly enough that the Militia comprised all males physically capable of acting in concert for the common defense. 'A body of citizens enrolled for military discipline.' And further, that ordinarily when called for service these men were expected to appear bearing arms supplied by themselves and of the kind in common use at the time."'
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Opinions sought....
 
Miller is an interesting case, made even more interesting when viewed beside the 2008 Heller ruling.

The crux of the Miller ruling was that a shotgun that violated the limitations of the National Firearms Act of 1934 (NFA) by virtue of having a barrel less than 18" did not violate the 2nd Amendment because, the Supreme Court ruled, such weapons were not in common use by the military, and therefore, did not fit within the "well regulated militia" part of the 2A. In other words, the Court ruled that the 2nd Amendment only contemplated a collective right, and not an individual's right to determine what kinds of weapons s/he might choose to use for self defense.

Had Miller himself actually still been alive when his case was heard before the Supreme Court, presumably his attorneys would have argued that if only weapons in common use in a military context fell within the "keep and bear" phraseology of the 2A, then the vast majority of other weapons heavily regulated and/or prohibited within the NFA would have made the Act unconstitutional, as Tommy guns and other full-autos were most certainly of the type of weaponry in common military use at the time. But alas, Miller turned out to be about only one thing; sawed-off shotguns, and that's it, and the Court took the "collective right" view of the case, upholding the ban on sawed-off shotguns based on their not being appropriate weapons to bring to a militia muster.

Well, jump ahead to 2008, and the "collective right" is blown out of the water by Heller. It's now decided, the 2nd Amendment protects an individual right, so it seems to me that Heller, for all intents and purposes, overturns Miller, and common use for military/militia is no longer a proper standard for defining arms that people can own. At the very least, sawed-off shotguns should now be perfectly legal, as without relying on the militia collective right interpretation of the 2A, the Supreme Court in 1939, when Miller was decided, would've struck down the NFA just like the lower court did based on the individual right interpretation that led to the appeal by the US government that the Supremes were hearing when Miller got to them.

Miller is fraught with judicial activism and either ignorance or willful usurpation of the well-documented intent of the Founders for including the 2A in the Bill of Rights. The history makes clear their intention that the 2A protect an individual right so that citizens could effectively fulfill their duty to participate in the militia that the amendment deemed "necessary" to a free nation. But Justice McRenyolds and a majority of the court ignored that history and buttressed the NFA and all gun control measures since then by so doing.

I've had this link bookmarked for many years. It's as complete an analysis of Miller as I have ever run across. It's also a storehouse of documents that were directly used in the case. The page's author gives insightful commentary and analysis that is, and has been for probably 15 years or so, the basis for my understanding of the Miller decision. The case is important not because of any profound legal scholarship that was applied in its deciding, but because of how many political agendas have been illegitimately fed by its mostly mundane, almost meaningless, ruling since 1939 all the way through to at least '08 when Heller was decided, and probably even after that in cases of which I am currently unaware.

Blues
 
Me and brother hunt with AR-10's..Great varmint and deer caliber....We have each taken over 50 coyotes with ours.


I would not be afraid to take a black bear with one....Now if it was a brown or grizzly I would want my Marlin Government 45-70, and as a backup my S&W 44mag...If I had owned a 500mag I'd carry that in serious bear country as a backup. I'm not as brave as this guy...I'd have dropped this one!




I'd love to go north and take a big brown.......What a rug to have in front of the fire place!
 
"Military style rifles" and "assault weapons" are just code for anything that looks scary. Those ghastly collapsible or folding stocks, flash suppressors, heat shields, pistol grips, or grenade launchers are only for people who want to kill, kill, kill!

Seriously though, a few minor changes (ie, making the stock non collapsible, no flash suppressor, grenade launcher, or heat shield) means you have the same weapons capable of firing the same kind of ammo at the same rate, minus a few cosmetic features.

Sent from my A200 using Tapatalk 2
 
"Military style rifles" and "assault weapons" are just code for anything that looks scary. Those ghastly collapsible or folding stocks, flash suppressors, heat shields, pistol grips, or grenade launchers are only for people who want to kill, kill, kill!

Seriously though, a few minor changes (ie, making the stock non collapsible, no flash suppressor, grenade launcher, or heat shield) means you have the same weapons capable of firing the same kind of ammo at the same rate, minus a few cosmetic features.



Sent from my A200 using Tapatalk 2


Well Henry Waxman look very scary too me...Let's ban him!
 
All you have to do is show antis pictures of a Mossberg 715T and a Mossberg Plinkster 702 and ask them which is an "assault rifle". Then explain to them that the 715T is the same gun as the 702 just with different furniture on it making it look scary.
 
Just about EVERY popular bolt action rifle is a "military style" rifle given that:
  1. Mauser developed his bolt action for the MILITARY.
  2. Virtually NOBODY calling for a ban on "military style" rifles can give an INTELLIGENT explanation of ANY difference between a Remington 700 and an M-24 or M-40 sniper rifle.
 
Me and brother hunt with AR-10's..Great varmint and deer caliber....We have each taken over 50 coyotes with ours.


I would not be afraid to take a black bear with one....Now if it was a brown or grizzly I would want my Marlin Government 45-70, and as a backup my S&W 44mag...If I had owned a 500mag I'd carry that in serious bear country as a backup. I'm not as brave as this guy...I'd have dropped this one!




I'd love to go north and take a big brown.......What a rug to have in front of the fire place!

Hahahahahahaha wtf
 
As owners of sport utility rifles, it is our responsibility to try (notice I said "try") to educated the uneducated (ignorant) as to what the difference is between a true assault rifle and an S/U rifle.

Wiki defines an assault rifle as:
An assault rifle is a select-fire (either fully automatic or burst capable) rifle that uses an intermediate cartridge and a detachable magazine. It is not to be confused with assault weapons.[1] Assault rifles are the standard service rifles in most modern armies. Assault rifles are categorized in between light machine guns, which are intended more for sustained automatic fire in a light support role, and submachine guns, which fire a pistol cartridge rather than a rifle cartridge.

Full definition can be found here - Assault rifle - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The problem as I see it is the media and detractors of the Constitution have been allowed to categorize a firearm according to its looks. Because a gun has that "military" look to it, it must be bad. what they fail to understand is that the gun was design for extreme environmental use without the need of a lot of maintenance to keep it in working condition. In the civilan world that means we can have a rifle that will perform even when it is exposed to the rigors of a 10 day backwood hunting outing in the June rainy season without too much fear of the stock getting water logged. It is built for a utilitarian use.

We also need to keep pressing the fact that inorder to legally posses , according to current laws ALREADY IN PLACE, to own a true "assault" weapon capable of full auto or burst operation, we have to jump through many legal hoops and pay for the "privilege" of owning said style of weapon.

When I get into discussions like this I try to make a concerted effort to replace the term "assault" with Sport Utility during the conversation. I'll correct the errant person with "Assault rifle? You mean Sport Utility rifle of course, don't you?" and I'll go on to explain the difference and the existing restrictive laws. It can be quite the eye opener for some. Other's will just get even more ticked off.
 
There are 3 reasons why I own "assault" rifles.

1. I can.
2. They're lots of fun to shoot.
3. They're extremely effective (so I'm told) at killing the world's most dangerous creature - an armed human.

Shotguns, knives, and beatings of various sorts each kill 2-5 times as many people in this country compared to rifles of all types ("assault", hunting, sport, flintlock, etc.). I think everyone should have to wear boxing gloves and oversized fuzzy slippers because fists and feet are used to kill more people than "assault" rifles.
 

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