Whats your opinion on the florida shooting?

[the dark]

All this being said, I wonder how many of us would simply abdicate the responsibilities we have assumed as part of our community just because a distant voice in a cell phone tells us to back off and let the police handle it.

Looking out my second floor office window a few years ago I saw a kid breaking into my neighbor's car. Called 911, watched the kid and where he went - went out front and watched him go down the street; didn't chase nor confront - try to tackle him and ask him to justify his existence to me. Didn't run downstairs waving my G and try to hold him at gun point. Not my responsibility and certainly not what I am empowered to do. Then LEOs show up, nab him on the street and I identify him. Good all around. Was there a part of me that would have liked to beat his ***** for doing that in my neighborhood - get some good emotional pay-back for all the rampant crime on our streets? Hell, yes. Was there a part of me that thought, as the 911 calls of this incident say this shooter said, that "These ******oles always get away". Definitely. But I fulfilled my responsibility in that situation in which there was no imminent loss of life.

It is neighborhood "watch" not neighborhood LEO or confront or enforcement - he fulfilled that watch function by calling and should have continued to watch so he could be a good reporter/witness - and only intervened if/when the "subject's" behavior met the criteria for intervention by a civilian (much less an armed one). He turned it into neighborhood "harass" and over-stepped his rights and responsibilities. Even if, at the time he shot, he was in fear for his life, the available data suggest he created the jeopardy where none had existed.

Perhaps more evidence will surface to change this what is currently being reported, but at this point, he seems a bad example of responsible carry and a higher standard of care.

Those of us in Florida are now having to watch anti-gun and anti-stand-your-ground attempt to use this against us, a matter that is not unexpected.

 

[cmhbob]

Please show me the proof that occurred.

What are you talking about? Proof that what​ occurred?

 

[walt629]

Looking out my second floor office window a few years ago I saw a kid breaking into my neighbor's car. Called 911, watched the kid and where he went - went out front and watched him go down the street

This is what you interpret your responsibility as, then okay. You've participated in being a positive part of your neighborhood. But by Florida law, at this point you could have affected a citizens arrest. Being in the 2nd floor changes the aspects of the situation. If you were standing on your front porch and witnessed the same thing would have done anything differently, is the real question.

Look, I'm not defending the actions of anyone in the OP incident. What I am saying is there is a huge section of our society that would simply look the other way when they see suspicious activity even in the neighborhoods they live in. If I'm driving downtown Orlando and I see someone breaking into a car, if I can I'll make the 991 and get a picture of the perp for the police. If I'm pulling into my neighborhood, where my family lives, and I see the same thing my reactions to the same scenario will be different.

It's all a matter of what and how we are willing to do to stand against the people that want to do us harm. Some of us are sheep, some are sheep dogs and some are wolves. Everyone at some point will need to decide which they are.

I haven't seen the results of the trial for this particular incident so I'll hold off on judging the man until the jury decided on the evidence.

 

[Danmc]

I finally had the opportunity to view some news reports of this incident. It seems that there are only 2 people who knew what happened, and one of them is now dead. I still draw my own conclusion, that the shooter went after the kid with an itching trigger finger. Zimmerman has been itching to hear his gun go bang, and he did it by killing an innocent 17 year old kid walking down the street with some candy and iced tea. Makes me sick.

 

[SGB]

What are you talking about? Proof that what​ occurred?

A little bit more information:

Link Removed

I'd say Mr Zimmerman had some issues, and that a jury will find problems with him and the Sanford PD.

If I have a right to be where I am, I owe an explanation as to why I'm there to no one without a badge, and then only grudgingly. This was not self-defense. This was manslaughter at a minimum. Zimmerman had no right to stop Martin.

That Zimmerman stopped Martin as you have claimed.

 

[SGB]

I finally had the opportunity to view some news reports of this incident. It seems that there are only 2 people who knew what happened, and one of them is now dead. I still draw my own conclusion, that the shooter went after the kid with an itching trigger finger. Zimmerman has been itching to hear his gun go bang, and he did it by killing an innocent 17 year old kid walking down the street with some candy and iced tea. Makes me sick.

Quite the crystal ball you have there.

 

[FN1910]

I do not know any more about this incident than what I have learned from this thread but it sure sounds to me like Mr. Zimmerman as well as few people on this board are looking more for an excuse to use their gun than a need to use it.

 

[SGB]

I do not know any more about this incident than what I have learned from this thread but it sure sounds to me like Mr. Zimmerman as well as few people on this board are looking more for an excuse to use their gun than a need to use it.

Please point out one

 

[Fyrewerx]

It is obvious that Mr. Zimmerman made some unwise actions. Primarily, he should not have followed/pursued Mr. Martin as instructed by the dispatcher (BTW - Zimmerman did NOT call 911 in this incident. He called the standard police number). Actually, equally negative was the fact that neighborhood watch people are not supposed to "carry" while on neighborhood watch duty/patrol (although, I'm pretty sure I would in Central FL).

However, as SBG pointed out, the burden of proof to charge him with something is on the police, and unfortunately, there is NO proof currently available to indicate it was NOT self defense. If anything, there is a smattering of proof that Zimmerman was on the attackee side of the altercation (bloody nose, blood on back of head, grass on his back). So far, all indications are that he was within his legal rights under FL's "Stand Your Ground" law. Please note: I don't necessarily think he's innocent by reason of self defense, but we can't base judgement on our gut feelings. ABC seems to be the network stirring this incident up the most. They are getting many of the known facts twisted/wrong, and calling it the "Vigilante Murder" is not helping to calm the victim's family and outside militias. Referring to the callers to 911 as "eye witnesses" is incorrect as well. None of them, including the young man walking his dog, actually saw exactly what happened (the dog broke loose, the kid went after it, the shot rang out).

The police don't have a lot to go on, and are trying to piece together what they can. The one error it appears they made, was to NOT test Mr. Zimmerman for alcohol or drugs (although, they did perform those tests on Mr. Martin's body). One of the witnesses, Ms. Cutcher, has been said to give conflicting reports, and allegedly refused to say anything when asked by police the first two times. I certainly would not want to be on this police team for this incident. There are just too many folks with excellent hindsight making statements to the media.

It is truly a tragedy that one would think could have been prevented. Unfortunately, a young man is dead, and his family is grieving deeply.

 

[the dark]

It's all a matter of what and how we are willing to do to stand against the people that want to do us harm. Some of us are sheep, some are sheep dogs and some are wolves. Everyone at some point will need to decide which they are.

Ah, it's a "sheep dog" thing...sometimes I wonder if most who cling to that term have even read Grossman's book and what he said about it.

 

[cmhbob]

That Zimmerman stopped Martin as you have claimed.

Is "approached" better for you? Any way you slice it, Martin had no duty to stop for Zimmerman. Either Zimmerman confronted him and stopped or tried to stop him, or he just shot him for the hell of it. The former will make it manslaughter and the latter, murder.

 

[Donjeare]

From all I read it sounds like he was playing neighborhood sheriff, got into a fight with the kid, then decided his life was in danger and shot the kid.

Way too many people think they got a LEO badge with their permit.

Here is a test that should be given before a person is allowed to carry a firearm outside the home:

Circle all the legitimate reasons for carrying a firearm outside your home (the list is not exclusive):

1. Self protection.

2. So you can patrol the neighborhood looking for criminals.

3. To put holes in stop signs so the wind doesn't blow them over.

4. To prevent the federal government from imposing Obamacare on you.

(Any one circling anything other than "1" doesn't get to carry a gun outside the home.)

well fact is the number one reason that the Founders created the 2nd was so the people could keep the government in check. not say we revolt, but there are lines at which we should say, "no further, or it will be over your dead body" the government was created to serve the people not to people the government.

as for the shooting it sounds as if the man went and more or less picked a fight with the kid. if that was the case then it was murder, but I wasn't there so who knows. as far as to whether races plays unfairly into the law's enforcement, dunno on a grand level. but in some areas there is a much better chances that (at least some) people of a given group (different depending on locale) are more likely to commit a crime that others. so a sharper eye might be kept on them, I dunno if that is right or wrong, but if you DID commit a crime, I think you gotta answer for it. I sure at least some place some people get arrested because they have the 'wrong' color skin and were in a bad part of town. i now of ethnic group in a foreign country that has a bad name be could about 10% of them are involved in crime. unfair, but go figure when that 10% commits about 90% of the non-whilecollar crimes in that country.

 

[SGB]

Is "approached" better for you? Any way you slice it, Martin had no duty to stop for Zimmerman. Either Zimmerman confronted him and stopped or tried to stop him, or he just shot him for the hell of it. The former will make it manslaughter and the latter, murder.

Well you're long on conjecture but it appears you're short on FACTS as well as knowledge of Florida law. But hey that's the trade mark of the lynch mob mentality, please carry on with your persecution.

 

[Danmc]

Well you're long on conjecture but it appears you're short on FACTS as well as knowledge of Florida law. But hey that's the trade mark of the lynch mob mentality, please carry on with your persecution.

John Gotti killed people. Everybody knew it, but no one could prove it. Doesn't mean it didn't happen. I hear what you are saying. No evidence to prove Zimmerman committed murder.

 

[Wyldekard]

Well you're long on conjecture but it appears you're short on FACTS as well as knowledge of Florida law. But hey that's the trade mark of the lynch mob mentality, please carry on with your persecution.

Information below is from the department of government in Florida responsible for issuing carry permits. I can't seem to find a reference that justifies what Zimmerman did. I can find references that indicate Zimmerman should be considered a criminal and punished for what he did. I'm aware there is a "stand your ground" statute in Florida, however I do not believe Zimmerman can be the aggressor (he initiated the events by his actions) and use that as a defense to shooting someone even if that person is kicking his butt despite being 11 years younger and of significantly lighter body weight.

I can easily find references that state you cannot do what Zimmerman did without being considered a criminal subject to prosecution under Florida law. In addition, I can easily find a reference that states Zimmerman signed an oath swearing he understood and would follow these laws in order to be issued a permit.


Lawful Self-Defense - Weapons - Division of Licensing, FDACS

Q. Are there special laws that apply to the use of
Handguns?

A. Yes, special laws apply anytime anyone uses deadly force,
whether or not the weapon is concealed. Florida law defines deadly force as
force that is likely to cause death or great bodily harm. When you carry a
handgun, you possess a weapon of deadly force. The law considers even an
unloaded gun to be a deadly weapon when it is pointed at someone.

Q. When can I use my handgun to protect myself?

A. Florida law justifies use of deadly force when you are:

• Trying to protect yourself or another person from death or serious bodily
  harm;
• Trying to prevent a forcible felony, such as rape, robbery, burglary or
  kidnapping.

Using or displaying a handgun in any other circumstances could result in your
conviction for crimes such as improper exhibition of a firearm, manslaughter, or
worse.

Example of the kind of attack that will not justify defending yourself with
deadly force: Two neighbors got into a fight, and one of them tried to hit the
other by swinging a garden hose. The neighbor who was being attacked with the
hose shot the other in the chest. The court upheld his conviction for aggravated
battery with a firearm, because an attack with a garden hose is not the kind of
violent assault that justifies responding with deadly force.

Q. What if someone uses threatening language to me so that I am afraid for
my life or safety?

A. Verbal threats are not enough to justify the use of deadly force.
There must be an overt act by the person which indicates that he immediately
intends to carry out the threat. The person threatened must reasonably believe
that he will be killed or suffer serious bodily harm if he does not immediately
take the life of his adversary.

Q. What if I see a crime being committed?

A. A license to carry a concealed weapon does not make you a
free-lance policeman. But, as stated earlier, deadly force is justified if you
are trying to prevent the imminent commission of a forcible felony. The use of
deadly force must be absolutely necessary to prevent the crime. Also, if the
criminal runs away, you cannot use deadly force to stop him, because you would
no longer be "preventing" a crime. If use of deadly force is not necessary, or
you use deadly force after the crime has stopped, you could be convicted of
manslaughter.

Q. If I get a license to carry a concealed weapon, can I carry it
anywhere?

A. No. To get a license you must sign an oath that you have read and
understand the Jack Hagler Self-defense Act (Section 790.06, Florida Statutes).
That statute lists several places where you may not carry a concealed weapon.
You should read subsection 12 for a complete list, but some examples are
football, baseball, and basketball games (college or professional) and bars.

A cool head and even temper can keep handgun carriers out of trouble. You
should never carry a gun into a situation where you might get angry.

Summary

1. Never display a handgun to gain "leverage" in an argument, even if it
isn't loaded or you never intend to use it.

2. The amount of force that you use to defend yourself must not be excessive
under the circumstances.

• Never use deadly force in self-defense unless you are afraid that if you
  don't, you will be killed or seriously injured;
• Verbal threats never justify your use of deadly force;
• If you think someone has a weapon and will use it unless you kill him, be
  sure you are right and are not overreacting to the situation.

3. The law permits you to carry a concealed weapon for self-defense. Carrying
a concealed weapon does not make you a free-lance policeman or a "good
samaritan."

 

[walt629]

A little bit more information:

Link Removed.

Biased news media head line sensationalism at it's best. It does a good job selling papers.

The fact that this man was seemingly the sole supporter of the Neighborhood Watch program and walked his neighborhood nightly is strong reasoning why he called 911 so many time. It is the biased media that pins him as "habitual".

For full disclosure, I am part of our neighborhood watch program and I'd be willing to bet that I would be deemed a habitual caller by the media also.

I would be willing to say that because there are so many calls on record to the police for issues in the neighborhood, it would be an indication that Zimmerman has a track record of getting the police involved as he should, and not taking matters into his own hands.

And I beg to differ, a private citizen does have the right to stop another private citizen and question their reason for being in their immediate community, however unless they have directly witnessed a crime, they cannot detain anyone. We have had this conversation with the Sheriff department every time we have a Deputy come to our watch meetings. They tell us the same thing. If you see something suspicious, call. Question why strangers are in the neighborhood and ask them if they belong here. They do say to leave the police work to the police but have said that every citizen has the power of citizens arrest but we also assume the consequences of our actions.

I'll give you this, there is a fine line between being a good neighborhood watch member and a vigilanty and it would seem that that line blurred with Mr. Zimmerman.

 

[CapGun]

Yours is the first post I've seen on the subject that has stated the facts as currently reported. There is an undeniable rush to make this a racial issue. I am taking note of which media sources are referring to Mr. Zimmerman as white as opposed to those calling him a Hispanic. Given the current racially charged political atmosphere its possible we will never get the straight dope on what happened.

It doesn't look good on the surface and the shooter appears to be an idiot but we weren't there. Have no fear though, since the victim was black Eric Holder will investigate.
With his dedication to the Law and the Constitution and his unique sense of fairness we will know the truth about this sad situation!

 

[rob929]

Being armed, as we know, is a huge responsibility. At no time while armed can I assume an offensive position. At no time while armed can I escalate a situation/altercation.
From everything I've read the shooter really messed up.

 

[wjh2657]

Shooter inserted himself into a dangerous situation after being advised by proper authority to stand down and not interfere. Race is not even a factor. what incurred during the struggle is not a factor. Disregarding instructions from a law enforcement agency (dispatchers tell cops where to go, what makes anybody thing they can't advise civilians?) makes the case. A slam dunk for manslaughter.

 

[cmhbob]

Well you're long on conjecture but it appears you're short on FACTS as well as knowledge of Florida law. But hey that's the trade mark of the lynch mob mentality, please carry on with your persecution.

OK, educate me, Mr. Instructor. Tell me when a private citizen is allowed to detain another private citizen who has a right to be where he is, even though you're not an attorney. Tell me when I have to stop and tell another private citizen why I'm walking down a path in an apartment complex.

And can someone please clarify Zimmerman's status with regard to a neighborhood watch? I keep hearing "self-appointed," and I've not seen statements from any other member of the neighborhood watch. Nothing confirming or denying his status. Nothing from any officers or boardmembers in the watch group. Was this a one-man neighborhood watch? Is that legal in Florida?