**Flash Mob**


Grognard Gunny:222277 said:
What would you do as another customer if this happened in the store you were in?

who would stand up for what is right and confront them? Who believes its not their problem, and have no duty?

Try to stay out of the way. If, however, the "mob" tried to turn on me or mine....... show time!

GG

How long do we as a society stand by and watch wrong flourish, until we do become completely policed?
 

I can only hope that I would be on the jury when the store owner goes on trial for application of deadly force. I dont know about everyone else but if I am in the store as a owner, when they break out my windows, I would feel that my life is threatened. If the police cant or wont protect me, then I would be forced to protect myself.
 
How long do we as a society stand by and watch wrong flourish, until we do become completely policed?

Just as long as the criteria for "deadly force" is coupled to personal bodily harm. I HAVE to obey the ROE, the BGs never do.

Once upon a time I was paid to "defend" one and all at Government descretion. Damn near got me killed a couple of times. Now that I have a rather limited number of scenarios in which I would feel obligated to go into "Battle Mode" over...... I call that "freedom of choice" with a bit of self preservaton thrown in for good measure.

Like I said, they don't come after me..... it is outside of my realm of concern. Come after me..... different ball game. I WILL be a "good witness" for the follow up, if any, however.

GG
 
Flash Mob?? LOL, how cool would it be have auto locking doors, a flashbang, tear gas, then a auto paintgun with hardened paintballs. I mean, some of these prisons use rubber bullets in their shotguns, why not hardened paintballs. anyone stands up, BAM! all while 911 is notified. (some group would probably call that cruel and unusual punishment though).
 
Flash Mob?? LOL, how cool would it be have auto locking doors, a flashbang, tear gas, then a auto paintgun with hardened paintballs. I mean, some of these prisons use rubber bullets in their shotguns, why not hardened paintballs. anyone stands up, BAM! all while 911 is notified. (some group would probably call that cruel and unusual punishment though).

Unusual yes. Cruel? Nah! The flashbang I think would be the most fun! But having 20 or 30 mobbers running into each other and everything else in the store could cause a lot of dammage that I as the store owner would have to clean up. But the reaction would be worth it!
 
The problem with "flash mobs" is that they are called "flash" because they are spontaneous by way of the various social sites that are accessible by the new mobile phones. They are called "mobs" because they are a bunch of young people who have nothing else to do but "have fun". They get the mob attitude and don't pay attention to the criminality of their actions. But for the most part they are juveniles or young (?)adults who have never been taught any better and who are not mature yet. They were allowed as young kids (12 to 16) and in some cases younger who hung around the malls with others of like kind with nothing to do and no supervision by parents. Often times their actions amount only to shop lifting or purse snatching and mostly minor misdemeanors. Would you pull your weapon under those circumstances? Not likely. But these mobs lead to other more volital(sp) mobs who are young punks with criminal backgrounds whose purpose is to steal, maim and otherwise cause harm to as many citizens as they can just for the fun of it or in other cases mobs of young blacks attacking whites, asians and latinos as a racial attack. (Most black adults do not support this activity and are vocal againist it). Would you pull your weapoon under those circumstances? So would I! It's a fine line so be sure of yourself and your actions. JMHO [Don't bang me with accusations of racial noises. I am not racial but I've witnessed a lot of these mobs over thirty-five years as a LEO.]
 
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IF you step up in front of them and walk forward and say get out and block their way in when they come forward you can shoot. They were a theat to you. You tryed to stop them by blocking them they came to go over you, your in fear of losing your life. You shoot.
It takes guts to stand in front of them and do that. But that what it takes.
Guts and a shotgun.
 
IF you step up in front of them and walk forward and say get out and block their way in when they come forward you can shoot. They were a theat to you. You tryed to stop them by blocking them they came to go over you, your in fear of losing your life. You shoot.
It takes guts to stand in front of them and do that. But that what it takes.
Guts and a shotgun.

I don't know what State you're in but I doubt you'd get away calling that self defense. Not unless they first draw weapons on you. Part of the flash mob "trick" is that they simply show up in a large crowd, walk into a store and carry away stuff. No guns, no violence and they know damned well there's no much you can do against it. Legally.

If it's a mob actually attacking people that's another story of course.
 
Uhhh!!!:fie: After reading all 10 pages. I have ended up with the conclusion that most of you that posted have no problem killing someone for stealing $20 worth of items. While that fact bothers me that you place such a low dollar amount on a human life. While their actions are wrong and illegal it does not give you the right to shoot them. Where I live you need to be in fear for your life to use deadly force and having 20 to 30 kids stealing items from the store I am working at does not cause me to fear for my life. The other thing most have forgotten or chose to ignore was there where others in the store when the flash-mob came in, so locking the doors and spraying pepper spray on everyone would not be the wisest thing to do.

And I agree that if this type of behavior is not stopped it will cause the price of items to go up even more to pay for the increase in the insurance premiums. But using force to stop a peaceful mob will cause problems.(Peaceful is being used due to the mob just stealing items and not causing harm to people) None of the people in the flash mob had weapons in their hands mainly due to their hands being full of plundered booty. Now imagine them with weapons in their hands coming to take the items they took. The store clerk can now use deadly force but as soon as he starts shooting them one of two things will happen.

1. The mob sees it members are being dropped and realize that they might be next and leave.

2. The store clerk is now a target that has to be eliminated so the mob can continue to plunder.

While I hope the first one is what happens I don't think it will always be the one that happens.

Ok I can already here some of you calling me names. But to prove my point look at this flash mob where the sore clerk tried to stop the mob by closing the doors.

Link Removed

And yes this flash mob is black and the store clerk was white.
:sarcastic: Damn Blacks why can't you just do flash mobs where you dance like the whites do. I know I said y'all needed to quite dancing all the time but this is the one time I wished y'all were dancing instead of committing a crime and making the rest of us look bad.:sarcastic:


After watching the video you should be able to see why some of us say let them take it for we place a greater importance on our life then the items being stolen. The problem you face when choosing to pull your firearm is how many people will you need to shoot before the mob turns away. What number did you come up with? The firearm I carry has 16 bullet plus the 2 spare mags I carry so that give me 46 bullet. Now lets add 8 seconds to change the magazine if the first 16 bullets did not stop the mob. Do you fell that 8 seconds is enough time to reload your firearm before you are surround by the mob? Ok the if's are high on what one could do but for me it would be safer for me to keep my firearm concealed.
 
Kasper, I didn't want to quote your whole post for the issue of space, but I'm mainly addressing the issues you brought up.

First, the clerk tried to deal with the mob in a non-violent way by simply securing the doors. Who was it that escalated to violence? I don't think any of us are advocating shooting a teenager over a candy bar, but the fact is that a mob acts differently than an individual and that is why in many states you can defend yourself against a mob as if they are armed even if they have no weapons. A mob is equivalent to an armed individual in the amount of damage they can inflict and they have a different mentality which is more likely to inflict it.

This also doesn't have to be a group of black teenagers in a convenience store. This could also be a group of white guys at a football game or a group of Mexicans at Cinco de Mayo - the race and the venue doesn't matter, only the fact that they are a mob and not thinking like an individual with the values and morals of an individual.

Remember this clerks words, "I thought they were going to kill me." And that was only because he tried to close the doors. Do not take these mobs lightly because they are younger or they "only" commit misdemeanors - they will kill you just as soon a look at you if you have something they want, like a car...or a daughter.
 
Kasper, I also thought your reload time might be a bit off. A person trained for tactical reload should be able to completely go from empty gun to stoked in .6 to 1.2 seconds, depending how they carry their magazines, slightly more for revolvers.
 
Uhhh!!!:fie: After reading all 10 pages. I have ended up with the conclusion that most of you that posted have no problem killing someone for stealing $20 worth of items. While that fact bothers me that you place such a low dollar amount on a human life. While their actions are wrong and illegal it does not give you the right to shoot them. Where I live you need to be in fear for your life to use deadly force and having 20 to 30 kids stealing items from the store I am working at does not cause me to fear for my life. The other thing most have forgotten or chose to ignore was there where others in the store when the flash-mob came in, so locking the doors and spraying pepper spray on everyone would not be the wisest thing to do.

And I agree that if this type of behavior is not stopped it will cause the price of items to go up even more to pay for the increase in the insurance premiums. But using force to stop a peaceful mob will cause problems.(Peaceful is being used due to the mob just stealing items and not causing harm to people) None of the people in the flash mob had weapons in their hands mainly due to their hands being full of plundered booty. Now imagine them with weapons in their hands coming to take the items they took. The store clerk can now use deadly force but as soon as he starts shooting them one of two things will happen.

1. The mob sees it members are being dropped and realize that they might be next and leave.

2. The store clerk is now a target that has to be eliminated so the mob can continue to plunder.

While I hope the first one is what happens I don't think it will always be the one that happens.

Ok I can already here some of you calling me names. But to prove my point look at this flash mob where the sore clerk tried to stop the mob by closing the doors.

Link Removed

And yes this flash mob is black and the store clerk was white.
:sarcastic: Damn Blacks why can't you just do flash mobs where you dance like the whites do. I know I said y'all needed to quite dancing all the time but this is the one time I wished y'all were dancing instead of committing a crime and making the rest of us look bad.:sarcastic:


After watching the video you should be able to see why some of us say let them take it for we place a greater importance on our life then the items being stolen. The problem you face when choosing to pull your firearm is how many people will you need to shoot before the mob turns away. What number did you come up with? The firearm I carry has 16 bullet plus the 2 spare mags I carry so that give me 46 bullet. Now lets add 8 seconds to change the magazine if the first 16 bullets did not stop the mob. Do you fell that 8 seconds is enough time to reload your firearm before you are surround by the mob? Ok the if's are high on what one could do but for me it would be safer for me to keep my firearm concealed.

I have a problem with shooting flash mobbers. I don't see where you can claim that to be self defense unless they directly attack you. The mobbers are clever in a way, they know as long as they don't get violent people don't exactly have a lot of options.
 
This unreal! No respect for the working man. Hopefully the police will be able to identify most of them from the video.
 
Disgraceful! I worked the 11-7AM shift of a similar store in an Eastern Shore college town in the early 80's and a group would come in and one would buy a pack of gum with $20 then while I was counting the change I could hear and see students cramming things into their pockets.
 
OK, we don't have lightning fields or house shields like House Atreides or even personal shields.

My first thought, like many here, was "sprinkler system releasing pepper spray or tear gas, or just open up on 'em with a 'riot extinguisher' like they use in prisons." And I loved the flashbang idea. But let's face reality here:

If you so much as lock the doors so people can't exit (instant violation of fire safety code), let alone hose 'em with pepper spray, YOU will be accused of escalating things. Some of those dirtbags are bound to know bottom-feeding lawyers. There will be people who were gassed or flashbanged and later testify "I wasn't stealing a thing, I was just there and the storekeeper attacked me!" Life for you won't go well. As a 7-11 clerk, the only thing you know for sure is that Southland Corp. will throw you under the bus. Those punks all know that nobody will touch them, for just those reasons. They are counting on it.

Frankly, I think the ability to quickly step through a back door that seals well, and hit a button to fill the room with CN (not CS) gas, would really be nice. CN is easy to air out afterward, and it's adequate to transform a room into a very uncomfortable environment. But all that preparation costs money.

It's my understanding that in really, really bad neighborhoods, not only fast food establishments but service stations and convenience stores, are already set up with both the staff and the merchandise behind armor. The customer comes to the bulletproof window and places his order.

This kind of behavior defeats the "supermarket" concept that evolved in America. The obvious answer is to go back to the old time store, where the customer tells the storekeeper what he wants, maybe even hands him a list, then waits for the storekeeper to assemble the merchandise.

Yes, I know, if I run a store after TSHTF and TEOTWAWKI, things will be different. But we're talking about solutions that will work in today's political/legal environment.
 
Uhhh!!!:fie: After reading all 10 pages. I have ended up with the conclusion that most of you that posted have no problem killing someone for stealing $20 worth of items. While that fact bothers me that you place such a low dollar amount on a human life. While their actions are wrong and illegal it does not give you the right to shoot them. Where I live you need to be in fear for your life to use deadly force and having 20 to 30 kids stealing items from the store I am working at does not cause me to fear for my life. The other thing most have forgotten or chose to ignore was there where others in the store when the flash-mob came in, so locking the doors and spraying pepper spray on everyone would not be the wisest thing to do.

.......After watching the video you should be able to see why some of us say let them take it for we place a greater importance on our life then the items being stolen. The problem you face when choosing to pull your firearm is how many people will you need to shoot before the mob turns away. What number did you come up with? The firearm I carry has 16 bullet plus the 2 spare mags I carry so that give me 46 bullet. Now lets add 8 seconds to change the magazine if the first 16 bullets did not stop the mob. Do you fell that 8 seconds is enough time to reload your firearm before you are surround by the mob? Ok the if's are high on what one could do but for me it would be safer for me to keep my firearm concealed.

I do not think most everyone here wants to shoot someone let alone shoot them for $20 worth of stuff. I agree that the clerks life was not appear in danger or threatened and I cant say if threatening or intimidating words were made toward the clerk. What would have happened if the clerk said "No" you cannot take this for reasons valid to the clerk or owner; would the mob have escalated to violence? With that thought in mind is it intimidation by numbers in that "we are taking what we want no matter what" and it just so happened the clerk did not do anything about it?
 
MOB Action It's call a forceable felony. Deadly force can be used.
What the Mob did to the trucker in the LA riots is a MOB action and he could have used a gun if he had one and shot them. When the flash mob breaks the law by looting they could hurt someone who tryed to stop them and end up killing them. one of the mob guys when arrested said I only hit him one time. 20 of them said I only hit him one time. In fact thats what they did 20 hits one at a time. thats why you can use deadly force.
even if they are just taking 2 candy bars and running. 20 of them running out the door with candy bars and one old lady trys to say " hey stop that" and they run her over and she dies. That can happen and that why it's mob action. what insurence will pay for her life. People it's not the money!!!! It's the disregard for the law and thats us. they would run your over, hit you, drive you down, shoot, stab, punch just to get away with a candy bar. it's not you shooting them for a candy bar. it's because they would kill to take the candy bar and get away. Maybe your 20 year old son or 16 year old girl was in the store and your child said HEY! STOP That! and they ran over your child and they died. Your raised them to be lawabiding people and they did what
we as a parent say they should do and got killed. for a candy bar and the assholes who would kill for it to get away. If the flashmob keep getting away with the crimes, don't you think that they will try other crimes too, taking cars. rape, and at what point is it ok for someone to shoot them. O not when they take candy bars, or money, or your wallet, or some girl you don't know? When do you stand up after a innocent person is dead. How about now! In nov in Wisconson concealed carry becomes law. come next summer and I am at the fair and a huge group of men starts beating and robbing people come down the street. I am a marine vet a sgt of Marines. I swear on all my old marine buddies lifes I will shoot the first bastard I see hit someone. and i am going to try and turn the somebitchs back. or empty the gun and reload as long as I can. I don't stand by and let women and kids and old folk get attacked. No hero just a old Marine doing what my whole life I have been doing standing up for the ones who can't. I get crazy when people attack women and kids and old folk.
I don't care if there is a million of them I got 2o rounds then after that I will be hitting them with the gunbutt. If you knew me you would know i am not kidding hit a women or child in front of me and get ready to bleed. and the court can have what left. him and me.
I don't understand people who say oh it's just a candy bar, it's not my family. we the people!
Oh and all of you under 56 are kids. and all of you over 57 are old folks,
the rest of you should be by my side spanking some bad boys. Ya know I do go crazy when I think women and kids are attacked. a thing thats has gotten me a few black eyes and bruises over the years.
I live by the law. and justice but sometimes the law has no justice in it. Thats why there are people on juries. We the people. Yea I know Your going say HOPE YOU LIKE YOUR CELL MATE date. well maybe he can sing. and if he is nice and jewish and tall and NOT A SNOWBALL's HOPE IN HELL!
The big word here is attacked. don't want to get shot don't attack people.

Ya know I swear I was just going put two little statments here but NO!!!
It just comes out!!! God!! if you met me somewhere at a party you would like me. I am nice to people and polte. and smile and say nice things, I buy a round when it's my turn but I do get up on the soap box when I get mad. just I got to step in when I seen people hurt. It just happens. boom two guys get in a fight I got to step in and break it up. No Badge just hey it not right. I think I watched roy rogers too much as a kid. I did not like the lone ranger as much he wore a mask!! Cool horse tho! and wonder women How did they get that top to stay up??? But My heart belonged to Maryann.
 

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