What would you say to a restaurant with a "No Gun's" sign?

[Treo]

Once again you say the same thing, over and over and over and over and over.........

It doesn't matter if it affects them or not. As owners of the property, they have the right to forbid you to carry a weapon on the property, concealed or not. End of argument! It doesn't matter whether you like it or not. If you knowingly and willingly carry a weapon onto property when you know the owner has forbidden it, you are breaking the law. That makes you a criminal! There is no grey. It's that black and white!

First, in Colorado those signs have no legal force so I'm not a criminal (anymore).

Second to be perfectly honest this is kind of an acedemic exercise to me anway because I can't think of a single place I go to that posts such a sign so I've never actually had to ignore one.

The only exception would be the Sertoma gunshows I go to but they have controled access and security which means in Colorado their signs are legal and I must honor them .

That said,

I don't recall asking your permission to take this position. Your rights as a property owner end where they infringe my right to life (and the defense there of) and liberty.

I've made this statement in all of my posts in this thread and I haven’t heard a single actual argument yet against it. To paraphrase Ted Nugent, I don't need a document to explain to me that I have the right to defend my life. That right exists independent of the 2nd amendment or any law of the land it is an inalienable right Inalienable means “ can not be transferred to another” (American Heritage Dictionary) that means that you can’t take it away.

Virginia Tech, Luby’s Cafeteria and Northern Illinois University have all provided convincing proof of what happens when a citizen surrenders his rights to the state or (in the case of Vtech) a private entity.

If I enter your place of business with my sidearm it will remain in its holster on my hip unless needed. My mere possession of a firearm does not infringe on your right to life or liberty, It will not affect your ability to make money that day, and It will not drive your customers away (I never advocated the open display of a firearm in a Criminal Protection Zone).

The rule (and any such like it) is illogical because the criminals aren’t going to follow it anyway. What do you supposed would have happen if one of Cho Sung Hui’s teachers had jumped in front of him and said “ Now Cho, you know there’s a school rule against bringing guns to class.” Do you think he’d have said ‘OOPS s I forgot. “ And put the gun down?

I’m haven’t put anything in this post that wasn’t in the others and I’m tired of going around and around this mountain so I’m going to end this here. If you really want to defend your position tell me why your rights as a property owner override my right to defend my life.

 

[Lakeland Man]

I’m haven’t put anything in this post that wasn’t in the others and I’m tired of going around and around this mountain so I’m going to end this here. If you really want to defend your position tell me why your rights as a property owner override my right to defend my life.

Just prior to this post I posted a link to an article from the Goldwater Institute. Read it. They explain it much more eloquently than I can.

The bottom line is that 2A guarantees your right to keep and bear arms free from GOVERNMENT interference. A private property owner is not a government entity and as such, has the right to restrict your right to carry a weapon onto their property. However, you also have the right to not go into their business or establishment. This is not a fight about your right to defend yourself. You can do that all you want. However, you can't do it with a firearm on private property if the owner says no.

For me personally, I don't patronize businesses that won't allow me to carry. Simple as that. No argument. No fuss, no muss. I spend my dollars elsewhere.

I may not agree with the stance of the property owner, but I am powerless to do anything about it legally except to try and convince the property owner of the folly of their stance. I don't know the laws in Colorado. I've never even been there. But, gun buster sign or not, if a property owner asks you to leave because you are armed, you are required by law to do just that, correct? It doesn't matter how they find out. Maybe part of your weapon becomes exposed. Maybe you imprinted through your shirt. Maybe they have X-Ray F'ing vision. If you must leave, then the property owners right supercedes your right to 2A. If you don't believe me, ask a lawyer. When I was an LEO, and when I was acting as an agent for a Mall owner, I had this discussion with several people who wanted to carry onto private property. In EVERY case, the property owner's right took precedence.

 

[Treo]

I don't know the laws in Colorado. I've never even been there. But, gun buster sign or not, if a property owner asks you to leave because you are armed, you are required by law to do just that, correct? It doesn't matter how they find out. Maybe part of your weapon becomes exposed. Maybe you imprinted through your shirt. Maybe they have X-Ray F'ing vision. If you must leave, then the property owners right supercedes your right to 2A.

You are comparing apples and jack hammers if the property owner asks me to leave for any non protected reason ( I'm black, female, gay or wearing a burkqua) and I don't, it's trespassing, Trespassing is not a civil rights violation and has nothing to do w/ the second amendment.

If the owner sees my gun and asks me to leave my concealment is fail. Under Colorado law I must leave or be charged w/ trespassing (no weapons violation) if I were in a restaurant I would pay for my meal (whether it had been served yet or not) and leave. Any place else I’d just leave.

 

[Punch]

If an eating establishment has the proper signage to prevent me from carrying there, I will not enter the place. I simply do not HAVE to eat out, and there are other options in my area when it comes to places to eat. We have no shortage. On the other hand, if I was asked to leave (for any reason), I would do so. I would see no reason to pay for the meal since I came there to eat and not to make a political statement. I have no desire to pay for a meal that I did not get to enjoy.

 

[Lakeland Man]

You are comparing apples and jack hammers if the property owner asks me to leave for any non protected reason ( I'm black, female, gay or wearing a burkqua) and I don't, it's trespassing, Trespassing is not a civil rights violation and has nothing to do w/ the second amendment.

If the owner sees my gun and asks me to leave my concealment is fail. Under Colorado law I must leave or be charged w/ trespassing (no weapons violation) if I were in a restaurant I would pay for my meal (whether it had been served yet or not) and leave. Any place else I’d just leave.

I agree that its not a weapons violation. That is not the issue. The issue is private property rights vs gun rights. In every case, the property owners right trumps your gun rights. If you were to say to me, " come to my house for a BBQ but don't bring your guns." and I showed up with a gun. You have the right to order me to leave your property on that basis. It doesn't matter what my race, religion, height, weight, age, etc, is.

The weapon could be concealed effectively, but if the property owner doesn't want it on the property, you are in violation by knowingly carrying it onto the property.

Tell you what. You can come to MY house and I'll grill us a couple of steaks. But you cannot bring any type of firearm onto my property. I do not want any armed men on my land unless they are a LEO. We can sit around and swap stories of our time in the military and have a great time. But, if you DO bring a weapon onto my property, I will ask you to leave my property. If you fail to do so, and I have to call the LEO, I can assure you that I would prevail.

Its very obvious to me that you are going to stick by your position no matter what I say to you. It should be equally obvious to you that I will stick by mine. We may have to agree to disagree. But one of us is wrong. If you can find proof that your 2A right is stronger in the eyes of the law than my property owners rights, I'll go get the steaks and start grilling. But any proof you find needs to be legal precedent in order to carry any weight with me.

 

[Treo]

I would see no reason to pay for the meal since I came there to eat and not to make a political statement. I have no desire to pay for a meal that I did not get to enjoy.

I'd pay for the meal becuase I broke the rules and I knew it when I did it.

But again, you just don't see signs like that around much in Colorado.

 

[Treo]

ITell you what. You can come to MY house and I'll grill us a couple of steaks. But you cannot bring any type of firearm onto my property. I do not want any armed men on my land unless they are a LEO.

Your elitism lost me right there I wouldn't visit you under any circumstance

Its very obvious to me that you are going to stick by your position no matter what I say to you. It should be equally obvious to you that I will stick by mine. We may have to agree to disagree. But one of us is wrong. If you can find proof that your 2A right is stronger in the eyes of the law than my property owners rights, I'll go get the steaks and start grilling. But any proof you find needs to be legal precedent in order to carry any weight with me.

I think what you're missing is that I don't care about legal precedent. I couldn't care less about the law's opinion on this. If I come to your (privately own, not open the public) house (Which I wouldn't because of your elitist attitude towards cops) I would follow your rules to a "T" because that was a condiditon of accepting the invite.

A public establishment is different and I'm not going to disarm before I walk in

 

[Lakeland Man]

Your elitism lost me right there I wouldn't visit you under any circumstance

You missed the point I was trying to make. In reality, I don't care if you bring a Patriot missile onto my property. I was trying to use that scenario as an example.

I think what you're missing is that I don't care about legal precedent. I couldn't care less about the law's opinion on this.

That's the problem.

A public establishment is different and I'm not going to disarm before I walk in

Unless the property is owned by the government, it may be a public establishment, but it is still private property.

 

[nogods]

Your rights as a property owner end where they infringe my right to life (and the defense there of) and liberty.

Not in the United States. What country you talking about?

 

[bob16066]

There is a difference, if you take a dump on my front porch it affects me if I have a pistol in my pocket it has zero affect on you

Your Pistol on My Property Does Harm me. You could trip and fall and your pistol could Discharge and damage my prized Bennie Baby collection. Or kill Me or one of my best customers
.
Your Pistol on My Property Does Harm me. A criminal could disarm you and damage my prized Bennie Baby collection. Or kill Me or one of my best customers.

Your Pistol on My Property Does Harm me. An armed criminal may come onto my Property and: after I disarm him you might misread the situation and Shoot me for waving a pistol at the Criminal I just disarmed.

I could go on like this for days.

My forbidding you from carrying a Pistol on My Property does you No Harm if you and your Kind Honor my Wishes and Stay off of my Property.

 

[bob16066]

There is a difference, if you take a dump on my front porch it affects me if I have a pistol in my pocket it has zero affect on you

Okay. I won't take a dump on your front porch. I'll just sit there and clean my shotgun. This doesn't harm you at all.

Okay. You want to sit on the Porch. I'll just sit in your living room and clean my shotgun. This doesn't harm you at all.

 

[Ruger357SP101]

Except in a rare case or two I simply dont patronize any business that is posted.
I do give them a 'no guns/no money' flyer I made up and try to talk to the manager if possible. Theyve all been very friendly and understood the problem. One mgr was even a CCW licensee himself and was irritated that his company is posted too. Even if he cant carry as an employee he said it would be nice to know that others were carrying concealed in case some nut came in.

 

[Ruger357SP101]

It doesn't matter if it affects them or not. As owners of the property, they have the right to forbid you to carry a weapon on the property, concealed or not. End of argument! It doesn't matter whether you like it or not. If you knowingly and willingly carry a weapon onto property when you know the owner has forbidden it, you are breaking the law. That makes you a criminal! There is no grey. It's that black and white!

Agreed.
Saying that a property owner doesnt have the right over his property is the same as saying we dont have the right to defend our lives.
Its HIS property.

I aint got no respect for supposedly 'law abiding' gun packers who ignore someone elses rights.

 

[Golden Eagle]

First, in Colorado those signs have no legal force...

Agreed, I also know they have no legal force here in Michigan or Indiana ether.

I agree that its not a weapons violation. ... ... If you were to say to me, " come to my house for a BBQ but don't bring your guns." and I showed up with a gun. You have the right to order me to leave your property on that basis.

Yes but if I don't see your gun and don't ask you to leave you can NOT be charged with trespassing... or if I see your gun and ask you to leave and you DO, you can NOT be charged with trespassing. It may be rude to show up with a gun against someones wishes but not illegal.



I think we all agree on this don't we?



BTW: If I don't trust someone with a gun at my house ... I don't trust them at my house. :biggrin:

 

[Treo]

Your Pistol on My Property Does Harm me. You could trip and fall and your pistol could Discharge and damage my prized Bennie Baby collection. Or kill Me or one of my best customers
.
Your Pistol on My Property Does Harm me. A criminal could disarm you and damage my prized Bennie Baby collection. Or kill Me or one of my best customers.

Your Pistol on My Property Does Harm me. An armed criminal may come onto my Property and: after I disarm him you might misread the situation and Shoot me for waving a pistol at the Criminal I just disarmed.

I could go on like this for days.

My forbidding you from carrying a Pistol on My Property does you No Harm if you and your Kind Honor my Wishes and Stay off of my Property.

Interestingly, all your statements of how my pistol does( present tense) harm you are followed by what if's of how it could (future tense) harm you . IOW not how it is( Definetely) harming you but how it might(possibly if all the stars align) harm you. IOW how it (just as I said) isn't harming you. the only thing that's harmed is your authoritarian attitude

I'll continue to carry thanks.

 

[Treo]

Okay. I won't take a dump on your front porch. I'll just sit there and clean my shotgun. This doesn't harm you at all.

Okay. You want to sit on the Porch. I'll just sit in your living room and clean my shotgun. This doesn't harm you at all.

Difference being that my porch is completely private and entry is by invite only as is my living room. Your restaraunt is (by definition) open for public business, and I'm not displaying my fire arm w/ intent to intimidate. You don't even know I have it on.

 

[Ruger357SP101]

I think we all agree on this don't we?

I believe here in Ohio that 'intent' can get you in trouble regardless.
If you 'know' that there is a prohibition, yet carry anyway, I think that you can be arrested and lose your permit pretty quickly depending on the situation.

Im not risking losing my CHL over going somewhere that I know Im not allowed or been instructed not to carry. I just wont go at all.

 

[Ruger357SP101]

Difference being that my porch is completely private and entry is by invite only as is my living room. Your restaraunt is (by definition) open for public business, and I'm not displaying my fire arm w/ intent to intimidate. You don't even know I have it on.

Thats not entirely accurate.
Its still 'private' property, open to the public or not, and they have the 'right' to prohibit firearms in most states as far as I understand it. It doesnt matter if you can see it or not.

Is this the same attitude some here treat law enforcement with ?
Trying like a 5 year old to skirt the rules just as much as one can without getting caught?

You all DO realize, I hope that speeding isnt just breaking the law if your caught...right? Your breaking the law when you speed, cop or no cop.
Sometimes it seems like some people think that as long as they dont get busted then they arent really breaking the rules.

I have two ex wives who were like that...which is why they are EX now.
Didnt seem to think that cheating was wrong unless they got caught.
Apparently we have a few, or even a lot, of gun packers who have the same philosophy.

*I* choose to follow the rules to the letter. Even if its just someone asking me not to carry (in which case I simply dont go).

 

[Golden Eagle]

I believe here in Ohio that 'intent' can get you in trouble regardless.
If you 'know' that there is a prohibition, yet carry anyway, I think that you can be arrested and lose your permit pretty quickly depending on the situation.

Im not risking losing my CHL over going somewhere that I know Im not allowed or been instructed not to carry. I just wont go at all.

There is no Ohio law making a private sign a law. If there is cite please.

Thats not entirely accurate.
Its still 'private' property, open to the public or not, and they have the 'right' to prohibit firearms in most states as far as I understand it.

Yes they have the 'right' to but everywhere I know of someone needs to 'verbally' ask you to leave.

It doesnt matter if you can see it or not.
Is this the same attitude some here treat law enforcement with ?
Trying like a 5 year old to skirt the rules just as much as one can without getting caught?

You all DO realize, I hope that speeding isnt just breaking the law if your caught...right? Your breaking the law when you speed, cop or no cop.
Sometimes it seems like some people think that as long as they dont get busted then they arent really breaking the rules.

I have two ex wives who were like that...which is why they are EX now.
Didnt seem to think that cheating was wrong unless they got caught.
Apparently we have a few, or even a lot, of gun packers who have the same philosophy.

*I* choose to follow the rules to the letter. Even if its just someone asking me not to carry (in which case I simply dont go).

Comparing the legal carrying of a gun to speeding? My property goes out to the double yellow line of my 55mph street. I put up a home made sign in front of my house "45mph". You ignore it and I get a LEO to ticket you for 10 over. Your OK with that?

 

[nogods]

There is no Ohio law making a private sign a law. If there is cite please.

Is this still the law in Ohio:

Ohio Revised Code » Title [29] XXIX CRIMES - PROCEDURE » Chapter 2923:, section 2923.126 - Duties of licensed individual.

(3) (a) Except as provided in division (C)(3)(b) of this section, the owner or person in control of private land or premises, and a private person or entity leasing land or premises owned by the state, the United States, or a political subdivision of the state or the United States, may post a sign in a conspicuous location on that land or on those premises prohibiting persons from carrying firearms or concealed firearms on or onto that land or those premises.

Except as otherwise provided in this division, a person who knowingly violates a posted prohibition of that nature is guilty of criminal trespass in violation of division (A)(4) of section 2911.21 of the Revised Code and is guilty of a misdemeanor of the fourth degree.

If a person knowingly violates a posted prohibition of that nature and the posted land or premises primarily was a parking lot or other parking facility, the person is not guilty of criminal trespass in violation of division (A)(4) of section 2911.21 of the Revised Code and instead is subject only to a civil cause of action for trespass based on the violation.

(b) A landlord may not prohibit or restrict a tenant who is a licensee and who on or after the effective date of this amendment enters into a rental agreement with the landlord for the use of residential premises, and the tenant’s guest while the tenant is present, from lawfully carrying or possessing a handgun on those residential premises.