WHY by caliber?

[bofh]

I've posted this in here before. It speaks for itself:

An Alternate Look at Handgun Stopping Power | Buckeye Firearms Association

It pretty well shows that the caliber (cartridge) that you pick is rather academic. It really doesn't matter much!.

An incomplete and unscientific study, as the following reinterpretations point out:

• An Alternative Look at “An Alternate Look at Handgun Stopping Power”
• Myths and Misunderstandings: Handgun Stopping Power

Also, as the author himself points out:

Jeff, one of the big criticisms of my study was that I didn’t do a more in depth statistical analysis. I actually considered doing the work myself (having taken several graduate level statistics courses while I was getting my master’s degree), but I decided against it. A better statistical analysis really won’t be helpful.

This was not a scientific study. It was merely a collection of observations. There was no control group and there was bias involved (I only included incidents where I could obtain good quality information). There was no way to control for exactly where the round hit, the ranges involved, the size of the individual shot, whether or not the person shot was using alcohol or drugs, or the clothing that was worn. All of those factors will influence the results.

Providing a better statistical analysis of imperfect data doesn’t provide us with any better answers.

As I said before, the way to look at this study is as a collection of incidents that add to our collective knowledge pool and help us make some better decisions. I compare it to buying a car…I can scientifically study the rates of mechanical failures with a good statistical analysis. I could also talk to 20 people who have owned the car and see if it works for them. Both methods would likely give me different sets of information, but both methods would also likely give me the information I need to make a decision. Combining the two by doing a statistical analysis on with information received from talking to the car owners wouldn’t really add to the total knowledge pool.

In contrast, Best Choices for Self Defense Ammo, which I referenced in earlier posts, is based scientific knowledge that simply analyzes how much damage a particular round makes, but not how well one can shoot it in a self defense situation.

If you feel better getting a lot of practice with you 50 cal mag super laudenboomer that's fine keep it up. If it makes you feel more secure fine. That's the main reason to carry. Just remember that almost all self defense shootings occur at ranges of 7 yard or less. Mostly less! If you can point your finger you can hit an assailant at these ranges.

Classic arguments of the "small caliber crowd". It is either .22lr (Greg Ellifritz study) or a 50 cal mag super laudenboomer (your comment). There are many viable choices in-between. Also, if almost all self defense shootings occur at ranges of 7 yard or less, then a few self defense shootings still occur at ranges of more than 7 yards.

 

[mikestone967]

During a shooting you have to want to hit the perp. You must have a strong desire to make a good shot. Like shooting well at the range but with more conviction to do damage. There should be no second thought, aim\point and fire, and fire again, not just once. Yes I have been in combat. Have experience with shootings. Your only thought should be shooting the perp as many times as you have to to stop him. The perp is not a target, he/she is someone who might kill you. leasantry:

"Call of Duty" doesn't count as combat, Conrad.

 

[Robgmn]

It's a pissing contest.
Whoever carries the biggest caliber is obviously better armed and will be able to defend themselves better.
No one cares if the guy with the big caliber gun misses the target but the guy with the smaller caliber gun deposits 15 rounds in the skell.
Just face it, if you carry anything less than a .50 Cal S&W500, you're wasting your time.



EDIT: I couldn't find a sarcasm emoticon. This post is sarcasm.

 

[GryHounnd]

It's a pissing contest.
Whoever carries the biggest caliber is obviously better armed and will be able to defend themselves better.
No one cares if the guy with the big caliber gun misses the target but the guy with the smaller caliber gun deposits 15 rounds in the skell.
Just face it, if you carry anything less than a .50 Cal S&W500, you're wasting your time.

For my money, the best caliber is the one you shoot best with. You can have a S&W .500 but if you can't hit anything with it, it's useless. Conversely, if you can put .22LR hollow point between someone's eyes everytime, it is an extremely effective round. It's generally not the tool that wins the fight, it's the one who can master the tool the best that wins. It is an age old weapons lesson, doesn't matter if it is an army, a gun, a knife, a sword, or the human body. Tactics and skill win confrontations more often than a bigger stick.

 

[bofh]

For my money, the best caliber is the one you shoot best with. You can have a S&W .500 but if you can't hit anything with it, it's useless. Conversely, if you can put .22LR hollow point between someone's eyes everytime, it is an extremely effective round.

The point is that no-one can put .22LR hollow point between someone's eyes every time. And most people can't hit anything with a S&W .500. So, why are we talking about this then? Understand who started this thread and why. This person is coming regularly to this forum to start the same small caliber argument over and over again with the same results.

It's generally not the tool that wins the fight, it's the one who can master the tool the best that wins. It is an age old weapons lesson, doesn't matter if it is an army, a gun, a knife, a sword, or the human body. Tactics and skill win confrontations more often than a bigger stick.

It is the combination of mindset, skill and gear. Amateurs talk hardware. Professionals talk software! In other words, the best gear doesn't mean much if you don't have the right mindset and skill. At the same time, choosing the wrong tool for the job just makes it unnecessarily harder. Small caliber advocates, like the OP, overplay mindset and skill to compensate for choosing an inadequate tool for the job.

 

[GryHounnd]

The point is that no-one can put .22LR hollow point between someone's eyes every time. And most people can't hit anything with a S&W .500. So, why are we talking about this then? Understand who started this thread and why. This person is coming regularly to this forum to start the same small caliber argument over and over again with the same results.



It is the combination of mindset, skill and gear. Amateurs talk hardware. Professionals talk software! In other words, the best gear doesn't mean much if you don't have the right mindset and skill. At the same time, choosing the wrong tool for the job just makes it unnecessarily harder. Small caliber advocates, like the OP, overplay mindset and skill to compensate for choosing an inadequate tool for the job.

I was unaware or the background, and only trying to make the point that all things being equal, superior skill and training will allow for better outcomes with inferior tools. As opposed to having superior tools and little or no training. Personally I don't care about the caliber wars. I like 9mm, but honestly any hole placed correctly does the job.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N910A using Tapatalk

 

[BluesStringer]

I was unaware or the background.....

From an essay I found on the web three or so years ago by one C. Luznar. Cluznar has never begun to deny that this was written and submitted for publishing by him to a site that no longer exists. I leave the link intact only to show that when it was posted, it was based on a link that everybody saw and several commented on in the thread where I first posted it.

Link Removed

....When someone who owns handguns and talks illogically about their guns, it could be a sign they need help.....

...Another good way to help gun control is by having college classes which focus on people who have problems and may own guns. College students should be aware of other students who seem to have a bad attitude and also own guns. Students should be encouraged to tell college officials if they know another student who owns guns and may be having social or mental problems. It could be done anonymously and might save other peoples lives.

...As for gun bans, without a doubt assault rifles must be banned, citizens have no need for assault rifles in an educated society.

The problem with not knowing cluznar's history in your case is that even now that you know his true mindset about gun bans etc., it won't matter to you at all because you proudly proclaim that you consistently vote to put people in power who think just like cluznar expressed above, if not orders of magnitude worse. The quotes above may even inspire you to put a bumper sticker on your car, "Cluznar For President!" Certainly wouldn't be any different than whoever else you support, even if it's Bernie the Phony. He's got a State Constitution that prevents him from ever taking an anti-gun position in Vermont and still getting elected. Support him for President, and if he wins, those chains will be shed from his shoulders. There are no pro-gun, and especially no pro-Second-Amendment (as-written) candidates running this season, so anyone voting on either side is saying the exact same thing - "Cluznar For President" - when it comes to gun issues.

Anyway, now you know the rest of the story......

Blues

 

[cluznar]

BluesStringer doesn't need any guns, he just uses forums to knock people. He does not believe anyone except people who think like him should have the right to post on any forum. He's something else. This post will really get him to arguing with me. He would rather just argue with me than simply let people post their thoughts. But Hey! You go BluesStringer. :dirol:

 

[GryHounnd]

From an essay I found on the web three or so years ago by one C. Luznar. Cluznar has never begun to deny that this was written and submitted for publishing by him to a site that no longer exists. I leave the link intact only to show that when it was posted, it was based on a link that everybody saw and several commented on in the thread where I first posted it.



The problem with not knowing cluznar's history in your case is that even now that you know his true mindset about gun bans etc., it won't matter to you at all because you proudly proclaim that you consistently vote to put people in power who think just like cluznar expressed above, if not orders of magnitude worse. The quotes above may even inspire you to put a bumper sticker on your car, "Cluznar For President!" Certainly wouldn't be any different than whoever else you support, even if it's Bernie the Phony. He's got a State Constitution that prevents him from ever taking an anti-gun position in Vermont and still getting elected. Support him for President, and if he wins, those chains will be shed from his shoulders. There are no pro-gun, and especially no pro-Second-Amendment (as-written) candidates running this season, so anyone voting on either side is saying the exact same thing - "Cluznar For President" - when it comes to gun issues.

Anyway, now you know the rest of the story......

Blues

Honestly, I don't care about the pissing contests regarding gun control between anyone on this thread. The thread is about caliber size, I said my piece and I'm not going to get into the COMPLETELY SEPARATE ISSUE of gun control because it belongs on a separate thread. Thanks all.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N910A using Tapatalk

 

[Robgmn]

The only mention of gun control in this thread should be with regard to hitting the target.

 

[Eidolon]

BluesStringer doesn't need any guns, he just uses forums to knock people. He does not believe anyone except people who think like him should have the right to post on any forum. He's something else. This post will really get him to arguing with me. He would rather just argue with me than simply let people post their thoughts. But Hey! You go BluesStringer. :dirol:

Did you write the essay or not? Do you believe that "Assault Weapons" should be banned?

 

[mikestone967]

BluesStringer doesn't need any guns, he just uses forums to knock people. He does not believe anyone except people who think like him should have the right to post on any forum. He's something else. This post will really get him to arguing with me. He would rather just argue with me than simply let people post their thoughts. But Hey! You go BluesStringer. :dirol:

Conrad, you are a liar. It's been proven on this forum for many years now.
You are a mouse gun loving gun grabber with dreams of being a "writer" but with eighth grade education... It hasn't happened..

But don't you worry! It appears that you've made friends with the liberal loons on this forum so maybe, just maybe... someone might take you seriously..

I certainly won't.

 

[Robgmn]

And yet you cry in another thread that people are condescending and insulting.
You need to figure out which direction you want to go, lest ye be called a hypocrite by even more members.

Condescending and insulting?
Or just condescending?

Mmmmm... I'll go with both.

Nothing like the liberal free pass!

Keep posting cupcake.. You're just proving my point.
Liberalism is a huge mental disorder and you suffer from it massively.

Seek help, please.

..and the condescending attitude continues...

I'll reply to you once you learn how to communicate without name calling or just plain acting stupid...

Until then..

It would be impossible to "debate" with you.
In fact, I don't think I'll ever be able to debate with you.

See, my parents taught me never to argue with the lesser intelligent, good for nothing liberals.

Sorry but when and if you can actually post something without your condescending remarks and holier than thou attitude....

Ah, never mind.

And this is where a mod called you out on it:

Please refrain from name calling
Calvin

This is EXACTLY why this country is the way it is.. Because of morons like this who don't have a friggin clue as to how our government was constructed and why it's so out of control..

Treaties do not nor will they EVER supersede a Right. Period.
and again

If I get banned for this, so be it. I am astounded how far down the toilet this entire forum has gone..

People like Grypooch and Robgnm stengun and others are here to cause chaos, period!
They have ZERO relevant posts and they are either all derogatory and degrading of another's opinion but this board allows it to stand....

Sad day indeed...

It would appear that you as well as many others here, only exist in a black and white world of "Dems vs Repubs" only.
Don't be a complete fool to believe your own Shyte.

This corrupt "Guberment" does not represent me and if you're stupid enough to think it's working in your best interest, are sadly mistaken.

It never ceases to amaze me when ANYONE attempts to blame one party over another.. Boo hoo!

When will you grow up enough to understand that YOU are just a cog in this industrial revolution of corruption.
YOU are as much to blame as any other person in this country who makes poor decisions.
Suck it up buttercup, that's life.
Decisions, either good OR bad don't happen in a vacuum.

Neither party give one rats arse about you or your problems, present company included.
So.... Continue on with the "my party is more moral than your party" and we will continue to see this country rot away...

All due to the likes of you and fellow minded but uneducated liberal ideals....

Sad day indeed..

Quite a pattern you've got there, Mike.
But, you'll probably retort that I made it all up, or that I'm just a stupid, ignorant, mean-spirited, nasty liberal who just sits around and tells lies.

Your posts strongly suggest you are projecting your own self-hatred onto others.
Feel free to keep proving who you really are.

 

[mikestone967]

BluesStringer doesn't need any guns, he just uses forums to knock people. He does not believe anyone except people who think like him should have the right to post on any forum. He's something else. This post will really get him to arguing with me. He would rather just argue with me than simply let people post their thoughts. But Hey! You go BluesStringer. :dirol:

It took a bit of digging on this forum but here it is.. In all its glory...

Conrad the gun grabber.......

"Conrad Cluznar

How to Prevent Gun Violence

In a country of over three hundred million people, it may not be possible to stop all gun violence. However, there are ways to stop a good amount. In order to buy a gun you must submit to an FBI background check and this is a good thing. But we must remember that many people who end up on a killing spree have no criminal background. Therefore a background check will not always reveal any reason to be alarmed at this person buying a gun. I believe what the Government must do is a study on what age groups do the most amount of violent shootings. Then close in on ways to possibly prevent these shootings.

It might be good to have television commercials aimed at people learning to recognize someone who is troubled and has possession of handguns. When someone who owns handguns and talks illogically about their guns, it could be a sign they need help. Therefore people who live in a household with guns need to be more tuned in on whether the gun owner is having problems or seems to be developing a more hateful disposition. Stopping gun violence is accomplished by others noticing problems with people who own guns. A good gun owner knows that guns are for target practice, hunting, and defending yourself. A bad gun owner thinks they can use their guns to settle problems or do away with people they consider enemies. Remember it is the person, not the gun who commits the crime.

Another good way to help gun control is by having college classes which focus on people who have problems and may own guns. College students should be aware of other students who seem to have a bad attitude and also own guns. Students should be encouraged to tell college officials if they know another student who owns guns and may be having social or mental problems. It could be done anonymously and might save other peoples lives. Possibly having a class in high school about gun violence prevention would also be an excellent idea. Giving students some knowledge in ways to spot and prevent gun problems. Now another step which can be taken is to let teachers take gun classes and have concealed firearms. I know this seems like a drastic step and would frighten many people, but let's be realistic. If teachers in colleges and high schools were allowed to carry concealed guns and some crazy shooter was killing people, they could use their gun to stop the shooter. Use violence to stop violence you say? Well with someone killing innocent students you must take drastic measures. Unless you want to just count bodies after he is done.

As for gun bans, without a doubt assault rifles must be banned, citizens have no need for assault rifles in an educated society. Handguns, hunting rifles, and shotguns are more than enough for protection and/or hunting. There could also be a limit on the size of handgun magazines. Maybe make all handgun magazines ten rounds or less. This is an area where the government needs to get together with gun manufacturers and discuss these things. I understand Americans wanting the right to own guns, but not assault rifles or guns with large magazines to shoot a large amount of rounds.

Preventing gun violence will only be accomplished if everyone works together. Parents, school kids, teachers, and other gun people. You can not just make a new law and stop gun violence. Remember that criminals don't obey laws, and people with mental problems don't either. Notice when a gun owner is not behaving normally or logically and let someone know. It takes all of us to be able to lower gun violence. Don't take the guns from good people, that only makes the criminal feel more secure. More people with Concealed Carry permits are needed in every state and when someone gets a Conceal Carry permit, it should allow them to carry in every state. If criminals realize there are a lot of people with concealed guns, they will be more cautious about committing crimes. People with Concealed Carry permits could possibly save more lives. Don't shun the people who carry concealed, shun the criminal.

Remember, nothing will stop all violence, but we can stop a percentage of it."

He also has a "bio?" Listing his writing accomplishments!

HELIUM WRITER & MEMBER SINCE 2010
Conrad Luznar
Professional Bio
PERSONAL DETAILS
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[BluesStringer]

BluesStringer doesn't need any guns, he just uses forums to knock people. He does not believe anyone except people who think like him should have the right to post on any forum. He's something else. This post will really get him to arguing with me. He would rather just argue with me than simply let people post their thoughts. But Hey! You go BluesStringer. :dirol:

I actually helped you post your opinions. All of them that I could find.

 

[Eidolon]

Conrad, you are a liar. It's been proven on this forum for many years now.

How would someone who only joined less than 90 days ago know what's been proven for years?

 

[BluesStringer]

How would someone who only joined less than 90 days ago know what's been proven for years?

There are two potentially honest answers to that question. One honest answer involves admitting to deceit to begin with, and the other doesn't. The one that doesn't involve deceit is that anyone can access most of the forums without registering, and/or they could read the archives after they register. One can read a lot of archives in a couple or three months if they put their nose to the grindstone.

Deceit is nearly always involved when a formerly-banned poster comes back under another user-name. I say "nearly always" because I have seen one instance of lukem changing a user-name at the user's request. I don't think that user was ever banned before the name-change, but unless he'd been honest when challenged on sounding just like his old nick, everyone would've assumed he'd been banned and then snuck back in.

I know of at least one user who definitely got banned and came back in under a different user-name and still posts to this day, after having been outed many times by many different people. I suspect that there are others, but have no proof, so I pretty much ignore when it happens because history proves, it's defacto allowed to happen.

I offer no opinion on which group mikestone might belong to because I don't care.

Blues

 

[BluesStringer]

...I know of at least one user who definitely got banned and came back in under a different user-name and still posts to this day, after having been outed many times by many different people. I suspect that there are others, but have no proof, so I pretty much ignore when it happens because history proves, it's defacto allowed to happen.

After I typed that it occurred to me that I recalled you, Eidolon, being one of the people who called out the poster to whom I referred above. Ironically-enough, that poster re-joined in Jan. of 2013 and you joined in Jan. of 2014, so however you figured out that it was a previously-banned user-name's new identity that you were responding to (3 times) This video is about 10 YEARS old Good ol' McKee right there with that up to date news[/QUOTE]"]when you called him out, would explain how mikestone might've learned about cluznar's history on this board too.

I still offer no opinion on which way of finding history of other posters on this site that mikestone or Eidolon might've employed, because I still don't care.

Blues

 

[S&W645]

Traveling by Greyhound is a nice experience? Ha Ha Ha. You should hear the people when they get off of a Greyhound and on to a Barron's Bus in Charleston WV. And time wise, Greyhound leaves Washington DC an hour before Amtrak's Cardinal. But yet the Cardinal gets to Charleston before you get there by bus. And have had a better ride where you can get up, walk around, get something to eat or drink, work on a laptop, and use a restroom that is ADA compliant. And it will cost you between $87 and $135 on Greyhound. Amtrak Business Class is $84 and includes free refreshments with far bigger reclining seats and more legroom. And AC at every seat.

As for size of ammo, it isn't all that hard to become proficient with a .40S&W or a .45ACP. It just takes practice, practice, practice and the right gun for the round. I can put .40S&W with a S&W 4006 rounds on target just as fast as .22LR. And I'm not Jerry either.