Why do so many people judge a good gun for carry/home defense by caliber? Those who have been around guns a while learn to realize it is how well you shoot that really counts. Which would you want? To be shot in center mass once with a .357 mag or be shot 3 times in center mass with a .22 mag? See what I mean. If shot placement is good, caliber means less. One good shot from a big caliber, or 3 fast shots from a smaller caliber can both be very lethal. It's not your "big gun" that makes the difference, it's your shot placement. Therefore, I want no more arguments about caliber, just show me you can shoot your gun accurately. Because I never argue with someone that has a gun. :big_boss:
WHY by caliber?
- Thread starter cluznar
- Start date
Quiet Observer
Member
There are so many variables that you are not taking into account. Placement may be impaired because of movement of the target and/or the shooter. Fine motor skills are impaired during stress causing less accuracy. The thickness of clothing, fat, and muscle affect penetration. The velocity and mass, and design, of a bullet affect penetration and damage to the body. In general 3 larger, heavier bullets like a 9mm, 10mm, or .45 cal. are going to do more damage than 3 .22s in the same area. There are no guarantees. People with 3 slugs, regardless of caliber, in the center of mass have continued shooting. It is just less likely with the larger calibers.
Care to post your CV? What qualifies you to tell me what caliber handgun I should carry? How much real world experience do you have? How many medical records have you studied? Show us the data you used to arrive at your conclusion.
B
Bikenut
Guest
-sigh- Yet another skirmish in the never ending internet caliber war. Ok.. I'll play.
It is better to be accurate under stress with a smaller caliber than to be inaccurate with a larger caliber.
Don't get excited Cluznar because...
It is better to be accurate under stress with a large caliber than to be accurate with a small caliber.
But the most important thing is to be accurate because only holes count and if your chosen caliber isn't making holes then it isn't doing you any good regardless of it's size.
It is better to be accurate under stress with a smaller caliber than to be inaccurate with a larger caliber.
Don't get excited Cluznar because...
It is better to be accurate under stress with a large caliber than to be accurate with a small caliber.
But the most important thing is to be accurate because only holes count and if your chosen caliber isn't making holes then it isn't doing you any good regardless of it's size.
bofh
Banned
I guess it was about time again for one of your small caliber posts to try to lure the uneducated. As usual, you post misinformation, oversimplification and false choices. If you do not want any arguments about caliber, then why are you posting this? How about YOU showing us that YOU can shoot your gun accurately?
Choosing a self defense caliber is NEVER about lethality, it is about incapacitation capability, which is often referred to as stopping power. Shooting a larger caliber does not automatically mean shooting significantly slower or less accurate. As for shot placement, a head shot with any caliber will stop the threat. Choosing a self defense caliber is about causing the most blood loss in a small amount of time in situations where going for a head shot is not the best.
Experts in this field simply disagree with you: Best Choices for Self Defense Ammo
WARNING: THIS IS JUST ANOTHER TROLL THREAD.
BluesStringer
Les Brers
His "data" are the disjointed thoughts rollin' around in his head like a BB in a boxcar.
The data that all those who ever read his posts should be aware of, are his own words about what he thinks of guns and/or gun control. Here's just a couple of examples:
cluznar said:
These were all quotes taken from a writing I found under his user-name a few years ago entitled, "Preventing Gun Violence In America." It was a link when I first posted it three or four years ago, but the link is dead now. Many posters from back then saw the page containing the quotes I attribute to cluznar though. Some are still around, and even cluznar has never denied those are his words or that he still believes them to this day.
Nothing he says about guns is free of the agenda of either under-arming, or disarming, America.
Blues
Blueshell
Banned
They're looking for the simple answer, refusing to believe that there isn't one.
I am simply saying caliber arguments mean very little. There is no magic caliber. Use what caliber you want. My opinion is that if you miss on your first shot you have a faster chance to get off a second shot with smaller calibers. You also can hit the subject 2 or 3 times much easier and faster. If you want to stop a threat, I believe 2 or 3 fast rounds to center mass will do that. If you are depending on 1 round from a big caliber to stop the threat, you better be accurate. I have shot more than enough larger calibers, 9mm, .38, .40, .45, .357 etc. But when looking at a gunfight realistically, I realize I can get off much faster rounds and follow up shots with a smaller caliber more accurately. I like having the most control possible in a emergency situation, small calibers give me that. I have more confidence in better shot placement, and faster follow up shots with a .32 acp than with a .40 or .45. No one wants to be shot with .32 acp yet they believe that .32 acp is not enough gun. SHOT PLACEMENT and quick follow up shots rule. :yes4:
bofh
Banned
You say that say caliber arguments mean very little, but then make a very strong small caliber argument. You are contradicting yourself.
I rather follow what actual experts say in this field, than a self-proclaimed Internet expert with zero credentials: Link Removed.
You continue to post misinformation, oversimplification and false choices. No-one is depending on 1 round from a big caliber to stop the threat, but you imply it anyway. Based on your own posts, you do not have shot a lot of rounds in general and have little training and experience, if any at all. You do not look at a gunfight realistically, because you emphasize SHOT PLACEMENT, without knowing and explaining what it actually means. You say you like having the most control possible in an emergency situation, yet you carry a mouse gun with a tiny sight radius that makes it very difficult to hit anything that moves at 5 yards distance and beyond.
JUST ANOTHER TROLL THREAD.
Clearly you've never seen anyone get hit by a 20mm chain gun
Stengun
New member
Howdy,
No, but I've seen things before and after they have been hit with a short burst from a 20mm CIWS (C-Wiz) weapon system.
It ain't pretty. Well, unless your the guy pulling the trigger!
Paul
No, but I've seen things before and after they have been hit with a short burst from a 20mm CIWS (C-Wiz) weapon system.
It ain't pretty. Well, unless your the guy pulling the trigger!
Paul
SR9
New member
Heard about a house break-in yesterday. The home owner came down stairs to see someone had kicked in the door and was coming in. He fired 3 times but only hit the intruder once in the hip. The intruder got away, but was found soon by the police. Point? People usually become poor shots when faced with the challenge of a real-life adversary. I've heard of cases where people have shot 8-9 times and never hit the intruder.
During a shooting you have to want to hit the perp. You must have a strong desire to make a good shot. Like shooting well at the range but with more conviction to do damage. There should be no second thought, aim\point and fire, and fire again, not just once. Yes I have been in combat. Have experience with shootings. Your only thought should be shooting the perp as many times as you have to to stop him. The perp is not a target, he/she is someone who might kill you. 
leasantry:
leasantry:
bofh
Banned
During a shooting you have to want to hit the perp. You must have a strong desire to make a good shot. Like shooting well at the range but with more conviction to do damage. There should be no second thought, aim\point and fire, and fire again, not just once. Yes I have been in combat. Have experience with shootings. Your only thought should be shooting the perp as many times as you have to to stop him. The perp is not a target, he/she is someone who might kill you.
I see you are taking a page out of the troll manual to not answer any of the questions that were directed toward your posts, but divert to a different topic.
Your ability to defend your life depend on mindset, skill, and gear. No-one in this thread other than you advocated any different. The misses that SR9 was talking about are a skill issue and not a mindset issue. One's ability to shoot accurately under stress with tunnel vision is greatly diminished, especially with no prior training and practice.
Not a single person I know that has military combat or law enforcement experience carries or recommends carrying .32 ACP. You have zero credibility.
STILL JUST ANOTHER TROLL THREAD.
During a shooting you have to want to hit the perp. You must have a strong desire to make a good shot. Like shooting well at the range but with more conviction to do damage. There should be no second thought, aim\point and fire, and fire again, not just once. Yes I have been in combat. Have experience with shootings. Your only thought should be shooting the perp as many times as you have to to stop him. The perp is not a target, he/she is someone who might kill you.
Have you ever actually been in a real fight?
I wouldn't want to be shot with a BB gun either but I don't think that would do it in a gun fight. Big hole in, bigger hole out (if it makes it out). That's my philosophy anyway.
if you care to read handgun stopping power, written by Evan Marshall & Edwin Sanow they cronical actual police shootings by caliber & ammunition used, it answers your statements, the theory taught is to keep shooting until the threat is nullified, regardless of caliber, you say you can fire / get off more rounds than someone firing a . 9mm , 0r .40 or . 45 i beg to differ with you if you care to visit an advanced class on this during actual shooting drills you will be amazed how fast an average shooter can deliver hits on a body size target , center of mass. using one of these larger calibers, if you still want to carry / use a .22 go for it , but how dare you try to convince others of this B.S.
I have never been in combat and have never fired my gun at another human being. I hope I never have to, but nevertheless, I continue to go to the range to prepare for that day. I have no doubts in my abilities. And when it comes to having to choose to fire at a perp who is trying to do me or my family harm, I will not hesitate.
Fast firing does not always equate to more hits. You really need to train doing fast firing. Heavier calibers are somewhat harder to bring back on target quickly, but it can be done. I've got 13+1 rounds of 9mm available that I can put down range pretty quickly, However I am not Jerry Miculek. That man can shoot quickly AND hit what he is aiming at.
I might, and I say might, slip my .22 LCR in my waistband if I am just taking the dogs out for a walk in the campground, but even in that instance, I probably would defer to my J frame 642. 8 shots of .22 do not equal 5 rounds of .38. When going out on the town, my XD Mod 2 9mm rides on my hip, and I do not apologize for it.
Joe
Fast firing does not always equate to more hits. You really need to train doing fast firing. Heavier calibers are somewhat harder to bring back on target quickly, but it can be done. I've got 13+1 rounds of 9mm available that I can put down range pretty quickly, However I am not Jerry Miculek. That man can shoot quickly AND hit what he is aiming at.
I might, and I say might, slip my .22 LCR in my waistband if I am just taking the dogs out for a walk in the campground, but even in that instance, I probably would defer to my J frame 642. 8 shots of .22 do not equal 5 rounds of .38. When going out on the town, my XD Mod 2 9mm rides on my hip, and I do not apologize for it.
Joe
I have never had to shoot on the civilian side but have had more than my share on the military side. That being said, it does not take to many times on the military side to know right away it is either them or you. I as well as everyone else feel it is better for the enemy to take the hits and give their life for their cause and not us. But as retired military I am prepared to do what needs to be done to save my family but that doesn't mean I don't need to keep practicing.
gvaldeg1
NRA Member
I've posted this in here before. It speaks for itself:
An Alternate Look at Handgun Stopping Power | Buckeye Firearms Association
It pretty well shows that the caliber (cartridge) that you pick is rather academic. It really doesn't matter much! If you feel better getting a lot of practice with you 50 cal mag super laudenboomer that's fine keep it up. If it makes you feel more secure fine. That's the main reason to carry. Just remember that almost all self defense shootings occur at ranges of 7 yard or less. Mostly less! If you can point your finger you can hit an assailant at these ranges.
An Alternate Look at Handgun Stopping Power | Buckeye Firearms Association
It pretty well shows that the caliber (cartridge) that you pick is rather academic. It really doesn't matter much! If you feel better getting a lot of practice with you 50 cal mag super laudenboomer that's fine keep it up. If it makes you feel more secure fine. That's the main reason to carry. Just remember that almost all self defense shootings occur at ranges of 7 yard or less. Mostly less! If you can point your finger you can hit an assailant at these ranges.
New Threads
-
Hunter Constantine or Phlster Enigma, for running?
- Started by sigsag1
- Replies: 0
-
-
-
-
Members online
No members online now.