When can chambered round lead to A-D ?


edd browne

New member
Rather than informing folks that an empty chamber can kill them,
maybe outlining conditions where a chambered round can discharge
is better for letting folks make decisions.

Assuming a gun is not defective, the basic question is what are the chances
of an accidental-discharge before carry, during carry, and during draw.

For starters . . . . .
I carry-chambered if the gun is in full D-A, or has f-pin block + manual safety.
But a chambered Glock needs a rigid holster, since the striker is half-cocked,
and the 3 safeties are really all drop safeties. .Carry-chambered is an option
if you know the gun, have the holster, and accept the risk.
As far as I know, you won't get in legal trouble for chambered-carry,
unless the gun fires at the wrong time.

On some older revolvers, dropping the gun could cause A-D;
or if it's fully-cocked (unintentional), and the trigger moves.
A true D-A semi might not have any safety, but it has full D-A.
If a manual safety is not engaged, and trigger is S-A, chambered-carry is risky.

Knowing various guns is not necessary; just the guns carried.
 

tmade

New member
A firearm should never accidentally discharge unless one of two things happens. I'm not going to get into technicalities of all other scenarios...just the most prevalent.

1. Someone can't keep their finger off the trigger, which is the ultimate safety. Never trust the safety on a firearm they have been known to fail.

2. A junk gun that has a pos trigger that would go off if the wind blows hard. I once, got rid if it a long time ago, had a pistol that would discharge if dropped, failed safety tests, and actually if I fired enough rounds in a session the barrel was known to melt.

Know the four rules of firearm safety.
1. All firearms are always loaded.
2. Always keep the firearm pointed in a safe direction.
3. Always keep the trigger finger off the trigger until on target. And finger off trigger when not on target.
4. Know what is beyond your target.

I personally would not carry a firearm without a round in the chamber and if it accidentally goes off then it is my fault for breaking one of the rules.

Carry safe, carry often!
 

rocketboy

New member
Glock Safety

It should be noted that when a Glock is loaded with a round in the chamber the firing pin is only partially cocked. When the trigger on a Glock is pulled it pulls the firing pin back the rest of the way - fully cocking the firing pin and then releasing it.

When a round is in the chamber on a Glock it is impossible for it to fire unless the trigger is puled as the firing pin is not charged, or cocked enough for it to cause a discharge even if something were to fail.

Since Glocks (and many other modern firearms) do not have a thumb safety, or other safety "switch" caution needs to be practiced when carrying the weapon loaded to insure that the trigger is not pressed when holstering, or un-holstering the firearm. But really you should exercise safety with any and all firearms regardless if they have a manual safety or not.

Guns fix stupid really fast.

I carry my Glock 23 with a round in the chamber. It would an expensive club if I carried it without a round in the chamber. When I holster, or un-holster my Glock I make very deliberate moves. I use only holsters that stay open when the gun is removed, you do not want fingers flailing about to keep a holster open when your re-holstering.

You can hear many stories about ND (Negligent Discharge, there are no "accidents" when it comes to firearms) and Glocks. When you get down to the details you find that someone had a finger where it should not have been, or a draw string got caught, whatever. Either way it always comes down to negligence.

Giving exception for for firearms using non-factory modifications, poor maintenance, etc. - with all modern firearms it comes down to a simple fact: they will not fire unless the trigger is pulled.

If you are not comfortable carrying with a round in the chamber, you should not be carrying a gun.
 

.45 Ben

I Eat Lobsters
I see where your going,but like you said in part,why worry if you have a good holster and know how to handle it? I carry condition 1,cocked and locked,however you want to say it.I have dropped one of my 1911s,and it was pretty nasty,but it didnt go off.
 

hatchet19

hatchet19
If you are not comfortable carrying with a round in the chamber, you should not be carrying a gun.

Next you will be telling me if I don't carry the same gun as you I shouldn't be carrying a gun.:wacko:

Who put you in charge of what I should be comfortable with???

hatchet
 

rocketboy

New member
Next you will be telling me if I don't carry the same gun as you I shouldn't be carrying a gun.:wacko:

Who put you in charge of what I should be comfortable with???

hatchet

I don't presume to be in charge of anything. I just doubt that anyone is capable of drawing a concealed firearm, and racking the slide as fast, competently, or safely as someone can draw one with a round in the chamber. Beyond speed, and safety - if the s&[email protected] hits the fan, having someone fumble around with their firearm trying to load it is probably more of a danger to themselves and everyone else than a help.

If you've ever seen, or done any training it always starts out with you having a firearm that is ready. That is, loaded, and cocked.
 

enfield

New member
1. Truly accidental discharges are caused by defective guns.

2. 99+% of unintentional discharges are negligent discharges - the person(s) involved violated basic safety rules.

3. A loaded chamber is a necessary pre-requisite for a UD, but doesn't cause one.
 

hatchet19

hatchet19
OK, maybe my reply was a little aggressive.:pleasantry: I agree with what everyone is saying about proper holsters, knowing your gun...ect. But telling someone they have to carry with a round in the chamber even if they are not comfortable doing so, is bad advice in my opinion.:no: Maybe encouraging them to practice more, become more familiar with their gun and ensure they have quality and reliable equipment first would be better advice. Once you have confidence in your equipment and skills, then carrying "cocked & locked" isn't such a big deal.

Maybe then negligent discharges would become much rarer.

hatchet
 

jtg452

Member
Rather than informing folks that an empty chamber can kill them,
maybe outlining conditions where a chambered round can discharge
is better for letting folks make decisions.

Assuming a gun is not defective, the basic question is what are the chances
of an accidental-discharge before carry, during carry, and during draw.

For starters . . . . .
I carry-chambered if the gun is in full D-A, or has f-pin block + manual safety.
But a chambered Glock needs a rigid holster, since the striker is half-cocked,
and the 3 safeties are really all drop safeties. .Carry-chambered is an option
if you know the gun, have the holster, and accept the risk.
As far as I know, you won't get in legal trouble for chambered-carry,
unless the gun fires at the wrong time.

On some older revolvers, dropping the gun could cause A-D;
or if it's fully-cocked (unintentional), and the trigger moves.
A true D-A semi might not have any safety, but it has full D-A.
If a manual safety is not engaged, and trigger is S-A, chambered-carry is risky.

Knowing various guns is not necessary; just the guns carried.

An 'accident' is an act beyond your control. An ice storm knocking down a tree onto your car is an 'accident'. Me backing into your car in the parking lot is not an 'accident', it's an 'act of negligence'.

I hate playing these semantics games but it is important in this case to be VERY precise in what you say so what you mean is completely clear.

By the same token, if a firearm has an unintended discharge because of a mechanical defect or failure, then it's an 'accidental discharge'. If the round goes off due to human intervention, it's NEGLIGENCE on the human in question's part.

EVERY negligent discharge started with a round being chambered in the gun. Guns don't go BANG! without a round being chambered. IF the gun does NOT malfunction, then it is pretty much automatically the HUMAN'S fault.

Oh, the 'older DA's' you mentioned was the Smith and Wesson 'long action' that has been out of production for about 50 years. The most popular of the guns were the 'Victory' model .38 S&W and .38 Special made for WW2.
 

rocketboy

New member
OK, maybe my reply was a little aggressive.:pleasantry: I agree with what everyone is saying about proper holsters, knowing your gun...ect. But telling someone they have to carry with a round in the chamber even if they are not comfortable doing so, is bad advice in my opinion.:no: Maybe encouraging them to practice more, become more familiar with their gun and ensure they have quality and reliable equipment first would be better advice. Once you have confidence in your equipment and skills, then carrying "cocked & locked" isn't such a big deal.

Maybe then negligent discharges would become much rarer.

hatchet

No, no, please re-read what I wrote so that you understand it:

"If you are not comfortable carrying with a round in the chamber, you should not be carrying a gun."

In my opinion someone carrying a gun that is not ready, that is no round in the chamber, is more of a danger to themselves and others, then they are a help.

As such, if you are not comfortable carrying with your firearm in a ready-state (that is "cocked and locked") then you should, in my opinion, *not carry at all* until you have had the training/practice that gets you to a place where you are comfortable carrying your firearm in a ready state.

You will be more of a hazard drawing our gun, and then trying to rack the slide back vs. having to only draw and get sights on target. There is enough to think about in a situation that requires you to draw your gun that your better off not adding un-necessary steps that only serve to complicate.
 

rdc2co

New member
I agree with Rocketboy and JTG452. All negligent discharges are 'human caused' or 'user error'. I've been in the business for many years and seen a lot of 'stupid-factor'. It is not the Glock that caused the ND. It is the user that caused the ND.
JTG; you are very right on the distinction between accident and negligence- very good comment. It's not semantics- it's fact.
Rocketboy is also correct, with regards to Glocks.
TRAINING,TRAINING, TRAINING and practice safe handling. I have my original Glock AND seven others, and none has ever discharged itself, nor have I ever seen that happen. Every time there has been a negligent discharge, it has always been 'user error', otherwise known as negligence.
For all who read this, pay very close attention to what Rocketboy and JTG452 have told you. Just use your head!
 

Mobuck

New member
One reason I quit carrying my HiPower was that on the occasions when it was uncovered(this being an open carry state so no foul), people who noticed kept asking me if I knew my pistol was cocked. I have since switched to a full size Ruger decocker and make an effort to conceal it better. The most likely time/cause for an ND/AD is during handling as in loading or unloading. I never unload my carry gun except on the rare occasions when I clean it. It gets a shot now and then when some varmint makes a fatal error and the mag topped off. My son is still not totally comfortable with CCW and goes to a lot of effort to clear his carry pistol and all his messing around seems more of a problem than just leaving it loaded.
 

edd browne

New member
I'm tired of endless nitpicking about lingo, and negligence, related to a bullet fired
when not intended. If momentary negligence under stress results in avoidable
permanent severe injury to me or a bystander, then that's risk I avoid if I have the choice.
But I will carry a gun anyway; chambered; whatever opinions are expressed.

I would not carry a Glock-type gun chambered unless it had an aftermarket safety.
Search for the many cases of experienced leo who had "early" discharge.
And search for the lawsuits Glock quietly settled with police departments.
 

NavyLCDR

New member
I would not carry a Glock-type gun chambered unless it had an aftermarket safety.
Search for the many cases of experienced leo who had "early" discharge.
And search for the lawsuits Glock quietly settled with police departments.

Has there ever been a documented case of a Glock discharging on it's own? Glocks have perfectly reliable safeties built into them - don't pull the trigger fully to the rear position and it won't discharge.
 

Treo

Bullet Proof
When you have an idiot running the gun

Originally Posted by edd browne
I would not carry a Glock-type gun chambered unless it had an aftermarket safety.
Search for the many cases of experienced leo who had "early" discharge.
And search for the lawsuits Glock quietly settled with police departments.

I've said it before but, negligent discharges are caused by ….wait for it…. negligence. They are not caused by any inherent flaw in the weapon, regardless of what type of weapon you’re talking about.

Keep your finger off the trigger until you are ready to shoot. Problem solved
 

G50AE

Active member
Has there ever been a documented case of a Glock discharging on it's own? Glocks have perfectly reliable safeties built into them - don't pull the trigger fully to the rear position and it won't discharge.

+1 on that. I carry a Glock, with a (shudder) hollowpoint, (shudder) in the chamber. :biggrin: All this FUD about Glocks is meerly, well FUD!
 

rdc2co

New member
Ok... Everyone has their opinion about Glock and well within their right to their opinion. Let's drop the Glock debate and back to the topic.....We're all on the same team- remember?
 

Treo

Bullet Proof
In just a few minutes, a Glock fanboy will come by and post a link to a test where a Glock was put in a blender filled with Drano, sulfuric acid, Coca-Cola, piranha, and 2 pounds of industrial diamonds. A CAT D8 bulldozer was then dropped on it from 1000 feet. The owner picked up the Glock, chambered a 155mm HE round, hit a post-it note at 917 miles, and then proceeded to run 726,761 rounds of Wolf ammo coated with Gorilla Glue with no failures. "
 

robmcd

New member
Any safety is a mechanical device subject to failure. Some handguns that have no lever that can be manually engaged still have safeties: S&W revolvers have a rebound spring/hammer block, Ruger revolvers have a transfer bar, Glocks (plus M&P's, Kahrs) have a striker block, etc. Other handguns that have a manual safety lever generally also incorporate a secondary drop safety feature. All are designed to guard against unintentional discharge. The negligent discharges that I have encountered were all caused by a trigger finger which disabled the safeties and fired the gun, not by mechanical failure. Safety is a mindset.

I know some people who don't carry with one in the chamber, or who carry a 1911 uncocked. That's a personal decision, and at least they're armed. A combat mindset is an acquired trait, and experience is one step toward acquiring it. Do what feels right for you, but please don't get killed with your own gun because you hesitated.
 

usnret30

New member
IMHO, all Glock type weapons (those with safeties built into the trigger) need to be carried in a holster that covers the trigger. I was the department firearms instructor in a small police department. We had a female officer report to a plain clothes detail with her Glock 19, fully operational, stuffed in her purse. Women normally carry a lipstick in their purse. A lipstick (or many other items) can fit into the trigger guard and when the purse is moved... shifting contents may activate the trigger. The Glock will work as it is supposed to. In this case, the weapon did not fire but IAW Murphy's Law the chance exists.
 

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