This happened to my son in north carolina


festus

God Bless Our Troops!!!
My son is Military and stationed in NC went to his local gun store to shop for a new rifle. The gunstore guy tells him that he needs proof of being stationed in NC and suggests a fishing licence and or copy of orders as proof. My son goes to Walmart and procures a fishing license to accompany his copy of orders. Upon inspection it is discovered that the fishing license address has a typo and needs to be corrected. He returns to Walmart and asks for a corrected license. The lady behind the counter loses her mind, screams out, "we dont sell fishing licenses for gun purchases" and snatches his bought and paid for fishing license out of his hands and tears it up in front of his face. He loudly suggested that somebody needs to get a manager over here and right now. He apologized to tbe people standings in line for the delay and found that a small crowd was gathering at the sporting goods counter. When tne manager did appear he told my son that Walmart apparently has a policy about such things. My son calls his gunshop guy who is also a retired cop and finds out the requirements per NC state law...he then proceeds to school the manager in following the laws and the manager admits that he is right. The manager instructs the lady to issue a new license with the correct info and proceeds to charge him for the second license. By the time all of this is resolved, the gunshop is closed and my son did not get a new rifle in a timely manner... he was absolutely not a happy camper!!!
 

Sorry to say, typical WalFart scenario. The stupid part is that he was charged for the bad license she tore up because of their mistake.

Hope he was eventually able to purchase his rifle.

No respect for our military heroes.
 
Just shows the stupidity of Federal gun laws. You need a copy of your orders or a fishing license to buy a rifle. So, you have to go to Walmart, write an address down on a piece of paper and pay for a fishing license to satisfy the proof of residency requirement. I wonder why the anti-gun groups aren't screaming about the "Walmart fishing license loophole"!
 
If he's paying any bills there ( phone, cell phone, utilities) wouldn't a bill be sufficient to show residence?
 
OK I agree it was handled stupidly by wall-mart employee and a bit over dramatically to boot. I also think its kinda stupid to have to have both a fishing license and a copy of his orders for a "rifle" to purchase.

But to cover the bases - He shouldn't have told the clerk the reason for the license was to buy a gun. should have just said the information was wrong and he needed the corrected information. Most license info Ive ever heard of are invalid unless the information on it is 100% correct. so even a simple typo could lead to issues had he gone fishing and a DNR / Fishing/wildlife whatever showed up.

Sdprof - The guy is stationed in NC so he probably lives on base and doesn't pay local utilities and his cellphone is still registered to his real home address before he lived on base.
 
If he's paying any bills there ( phone, cell phone, utilities) wouldn't a bill be sufficient to show residence?

No. The proof of residence required by law to purchase from the FFL must be a government issued document. If the utility was city trash collection, that might be acceptable.

I also think its kinda stupid to have to have both a fishing license and a copy of his orders for a "rifle" to purchase.

He didn't need both a fishing license AND a copy of his orders. He needed a government issued document which could be either his orders or a fishing license or some other government issued document that shows residency, but only one is required. It was supposed to be just more convenient for him to get a fishing license than a copy of his orders.
 
Either way the employee behind the sporting goods counter needs to be councelled.
 
The only thing he should need is his presence, federal courts have ruled you don't need ID to vote, you damn sure don't need ID under the constitution.
 
Last time I checked ya didn't need to be a resident of the state the rifle is being purchased in, only for handguns.
 
Last time I checked ya didn't need to be a resident of the state the rifle is being purchased in, only for handguns.

Problem is that the son was a resident of North Carolina when he tried to purchase the rifle:

My son is Military and stationed in NC went to his local gun store to shop for a new rifle.

If he lied about his current address on the form 4473 so that it matched his driver's license that would have been a Federal felony.
 
Wally World employees are never properly trained. I never buy anything from them unless it's absolutely necessary.
 
Problem is that the son was a resident of North Carolina when he tried to purchase the rifle:



If he lied about his current address on the form 4473 so that it matched his driver's license that would have been a Federal felony.


Ok, if you're saying that presence in NC makes him a resident - that's not the case. It's never been the case. He's there on active duty orders. In NC, if you do not claim NC as your state of residence for taxation purposes, do not register to vote in NC, and do not have an NCDL, and you are on AD orders, you are not necessarily a resident of that state just because they dropped you there. You can buy a house there and be on AD and you are STILL not necessarily a resident of NC.

I know this because when I went back on active duty several years ago, I left from NC. I spent about 85% of my life in that state. I own real property there (and Texas!), and I pay income tax on the rental income in NC because it's income earned in NC on real property and because the law there says I have to, but I am NOT an NC resident. Even if I were to be stationed in NC again, I would not be a resident - I am now (like most of the rest of the USAF - LOL) a Texas resident. Believe me, I checked this very carefully with JAG, because I could legally be a resident of either NC or TX with very little effort (and of course now I could claim SC residency with a flick of the computer mouse and a change to my W4, and since it looks like we'll buy a house here as well - there's another one). I can tag my cars in either state, keep a DL in either state (you can't have a three way split between insurance, license, and registration - you need two of the three in one state)....residency is and can be tricky when you own real property in multiple locations and you're essentially without a permanent home and can literally and legally change domicile on a whim should you so choose. And "intent to return" can be up for debate - both on the part of the state and on the part of the member. Some states try to claim your home of record is your legal domicile - and it's not. All your HOR does is shows where you entered the military OR where the military will pay to send you back to when you retire (if I retire and am stationed in VA, the military will only pay to move me as far as my HOR - anything over that I'm responsible for). But it doesn't show intent to return, even as states try to say it does. It doesn't. Essentially, it's meaningless. (Mine is PA, which is what it was when I was enlisted....I am deliberately - and very legally - ambivalent on domicile. Perfectly legal in my position. As I said, I checked with JAG and I'm totally fine.) You can give your HOR as whatever you want when you enlist (as I did - I enlisted in Raleigh, NC in 1995 but my HOR is and has always been PA!), and enlisteds can actually change it at any time. It's just an address. Even the DOD has started to admit it's an outdated practice because it literally proves nothing, and quite a few people don't retire back to their HOR.

Owning real property, though, is just my situation. This guy is still not legally a resident of NC unless he chooses to be. The Feds put a stop to that whole mess for military members eons ago, back when my late dad was still on active duty in the 1950s! The state can attempt to say he's a legal resident, but they have to prove it. Presence doesn't do it because he's on orders. Owning a home wouldn't do it either. He'd have to show intent of either return or staying. As long as you're on AD orders, you're doing neither. States hate this because the burden of intent is on them.

With that said, all this guy needed was the orders. He didn't need the fishing license and if the gun shop owner said so he was completely wrong. This is why he has to provide a copy of his orders as proof he can get the residency requirement waived. For example, I gave SC a copy of my orders putting me here when I bought my new M9 two weeks ago. My DL is not SC, and I gave my current address as SC. But that did not make me, nor will it ever make me, an SC resident - because I provided a copy of my orders that proved I'm sort of here against my will, if you'll allow that analogy. I don't live here, and in four years when they move me out of here, I'll have another address and another state and another set of orders that show I've been sent somewhere else (with the same DL I have now).

And now spouses aren't even subjected to as much shifting around as they used to be....my husband has kept his TX license and claims his residency there through me, even though we're both in SC. He's on my orders as well.

I'm AD military - have been for 14 years (not consecutively, but still 14) - and I've lived all over the place. I also grew up in NC and have lived there as a civilian. I have had no issues (and have no problems) with handing over a copy of my orders to purchase a weapon (I've bought two guns in TX and one now in SC, all with orders and my NCDL). That's a Federally issued legal document that the Feds already know about anyway. I agree with the stance that if you don't need ID to vote (I find that screwy, in a way - sorry, but I do), then there shouldn't be too much question about buying a weapon - but there are, so the orders aren't a big deal for me. We can't have everything, so I work within what I can have and make the least amount of trouble for myself in the process.

I've always found it interesting, though, that for as military friendly as NC is, they seem to have a serious problem with the military and gun purchases and permits. They always have. And no, it makes no sense whatsoever. They make it as difficult as possible.

Sorry so long - residency issues get on my nerves because it always seems as though the member, when they don't know how it all works (and a lot of people don't), gets the shaft. I've had airmen bullied by car dealers into tagging their cars in a state that they weren't a resident of - it was attempted with me as well. I had to print off the state law for that state's DMV to prove to the finance guy he was wrong (as were his alleged attorneys - not that I believed him in the first place) and that I was under no legal obligation to tag my cars in his state so long as I was there on AD orders. Nice try, though, on his part.
 
Ok, if you're saying that presence in NC makes him a resident - that's not the case. It's never been the case.

For the purposes of firearms transactions, and firearms transactions ONLY, there are two things that define which state a person is a CURRENT resident of - and thus the question on the form 4473 - CURRENT residence address and CURRENT state of residence.

27 CFR 478.11 defines state of residence for firearms transactions ONLY:
Link Removed

Title 27: Alcohol, Tobacco Products and Firearms
PART 478—COMMERCE IN FIREARMS AND AMMUNITION
Subpart B—Definitions

§478.11 Meaning of terms.

State of residence. The State in which an individual resides. An individual resides in a State if he or she is present in a State with the intention of making a home in that State. If an individual is on active duty as a member of the Armed Forces, the individual's State of residence is the State in which his or her permanent duty station is located, as stated in 18 U.S.C. 921(b).

If the son had active duty orders to North Carolina, and he rented/owned a home/apartment or lived in barracks in North Carolina - then for the purposes of firearms transactions he was a resident of North Carolina and North Carolina ONLY. He was both present in the state with the intention of living there (for the time he is stationed there) and he had active duty orders there.

If the son had active duty orders to North Carolina, and he actually rented/owned a home/apartment or lived in barracks in South Carolina - then for the purposes of firearms transactions he was a resident of both North and South Carolina and could purchase firearms as a resident of either state.

It's really that simple. Residency for the purposes of firearms transactions is completely different than residency for other purposes and, again, is summed up in two sentences:
An individual resides in a State if he or she is present in a State with the intention of making a home in that State. If an individual is on active duty as a member of the Armed Forces, the individual's State of residence is the State in which his or her permanent duty station is located, as stated in 18 U.S.C. 921(b).

Sleeping in a state every night makes you a resident for firearms transactions - and active duty orders to a state makes you a resident for firearms transactions.

If you need/want further proof, there is this from an ATF publication:
Link Removed

Page 8:

Sales to Members of the Armed Forces
A member of the Armed Forces on active duty is a resident of the State in which his or her permanent duty station is located. However, if a military member maintains a home in one State and has a permanent duty station in a another State to which he or she commutes each day, the military member has two States of residence and may purchase a firearm in either State—and must list both the residence address and permanent duty station in Item 2 on the Form 4473.
A military member on active duty must present either a current driver’s license or State identification card from your State, or a copy of the official orders showing the military member’s permanent duty station in your State along with a military photo identification card, an out-of-State driver’s license, or an out-of-State identification card.

At one time I had orders to Connecticut and lived in base housing in Massachusetts. For the purposes of firearms transactions I was a resident of MA and CT. I had (and still have) a Wyoming Driver's License and claim Wyoming for state taxes (none), but I was NOT a resident of Wyoming for the purposes of firearms transactions because I was neither present in Wyoming with the intent to make a home there nor did I have active duty orders to Wyoming. Wyoming even acknowledges this fact because my Wyoming driver's license has a Washington address on it where I am currently stationed!
 
It doesn't make him a legal resident of the state - which is how initially your statement came across. Not for firearms purposes. For residency purposes. A full legal resident - no.

What you've posted - I get. I already got, actually. All of that is why he only needed the orders and not some stupid fishing license.

Having bought weapons in two states, and being a resident of neither at the time of the transactions, I'm well aware of all that.

Military orders are great things IMHO. Benefits of residency without a lot of the pitfalls in a lot of places. They are, however, a potential source of quagmire - as in the case of the gun shop owner who in essence had no idea what he was talking about by bringing up the "need" for a fishing license to "show" residency.
 
It doesn't make him a legal resident of the state - which is how initially your statement came across. Not for firearms purposes.

Well, now people can take your word for it, or they can read what the Federal regulations says and what the ATF publishes to FFLs - it's their choice.

If you want to purchase any firearm other than a rifle or shotgun from an FFL then you must list your state of residence on the form 4473 as the state the FFL is located in.... if you want/need to lie about it, so be it = Federal felony. If you want to purchase any firearm from a private party in a state, then you must not be giving them any indication that you are not a resident of their state.... if you want/need to lie about it, so be it.

I am currently stationed in Washington, I live in Washington, I vote in Washington, I have a driver's license from Wyoming with a Washington address on it, and I pay taxes to Wyoming (at a rate of zero percent). So, tell me, what state for firearms transactions am I resident of?

If all I had was orders to Washington and lived in a rented house in Washington - which state would I be a resident of for purchasing firearms?

In either case, I can walk into an FFL's place of business in Washington - write down on the form 4473 my current WA address and list my state of residence as WA and that is the truth and accurate. I can buy a gun from my next door neighbor in WA and be legal. Can't do that in Wyoming because I am neither present there with the intention of making a home there nor do I have orders there.
 
Just shows the stupidity of Federal gun laws. You need a copy of your orders or a fishing license to buy a rifle. So, you have to go to Walmart, write an address down on a piece of paper and pay for a fishing license to satisfy the proof of residency requirement. I wonder why the anti-gun groups aren't screaming about the "Walmart fishing license loophole"!
Don't give them any ideas.
 
,,,I am now (like most of the rest of the USAF - LOL) a Texas resident.....
Not really true. You forgot AK, FL and TN. None of them have state income tax (the reason Texas is desirable), and Alaska even pays it's residents money every year. Almost every military member who was ever stationed in Alaska changed their residency to it as a result.
 

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