The Open Carry Argument

[hopnpop]

GOV5 > First, notice that HOLLIE1 wasn't the one who posted the story about the football player arrested in FLA. You're askin the wrong person. And I'm not familiar with Florida's concealed/vehicular firearms laws so I can't chime in on that one.

HOLLIE1> hats off to ya for carrying and for being open-minded as per your hubby's method(s) of carry. I did want to note that I, too, would only recommend "purse carry" if there were no other option for having it on your person. I think nearly every firearms instructor would persuade you not to, and for reasons that I'm sure you already know. But, like you, I'll carry in an unconventional manner if that's what I have to do. To me, it's still better than not having it at all. Carry on!

ITSTJS> If getting the stink-eye from the majority of people was the most prominent reaction to OC, I might reconsider, myself. But the truth (here) is that the most common reaction is actually a LACK of reaction. An almost unbelievable percentage of people don't even notice an OC'd firearm. And this is even with a 4-inch stainless Springfield XD carried in an OWB, Blackhawk! holster! That holster leaves a lot of the gun exposed, and the stainless finish isn't the most subtle, either. I think that the majority of those people who DO notice it, assume you're an off-duty LEO or are in some type of security position. I've had to tell folks on more than a handful of occasions that I'm not an LEO. Now, of those who do notice, AND know I'm not an LEO, the reaction has been largely a very acceptable one. Sometimes it sparks curiosity and I'm always happy to explain the laws and rights that pertain to carry. So, in conclusion, here in Milichigan, it's pretty widely accepted and sometimes even encouraged.

 

[hopnpop]

Hollie, why is against the law to carry it in a console? I thought that was where it was supposed to be placed when traveling.

According to the videos I've watched and the instructors I've spoken to, the best place to carry your firearm while in a vehicle is still ON YOUR PERSON. I don't know if there are laws in some states that don't allow for that option, but if you can legally keep it ON YOU while in a vehicle, that's what's highly recommended. Just a note.

 

[fudo]

Gotta Lov those tasty animals...........Medium rare, charred with fire and possibly some Bearnaise.
.

Bearnaise? NO WAY! A-1:yes4:

 

[S&W645]

Hollie, why is against the law to carry it in a console? I thought that was where it was supposed to be placed when traveling.

I live in Florida so I can help a little. If he did not have a permit, it would be concidered carrying a concealed weapon without a permit. With a permit, loaded and in the console is fine if your console closes. or if you covered it with something in a non-locked console. Also would need to be securely encased without a permit (Two Step Rule) or not readilly accessible for immediate use. The latter means there could be a locked trigger or the ammo stored in a place in the vehicle where you'd have to work at getting it. IE a locked trunk or a locked box in the passenger compartment not where the gun is. In the case of my pickup, he could have had the empty gun in the glovebox and the ammo in the locked center console and been fine.



As for the original post, I'd like to see Florida get Open carry passed. Not because I would want to all the time but because it would add another deterent to crime. Now a crook only has to worry about someone carrying concealed. With Open Carry as an option, they'd have to worry about those who OC, those who CC, and those who might do both.

 

[shermr]

advice from Massad Ayoob

The Ayoob Files (March/April 2011 Massad Ayoob)
www.americnhandgunner.com

“The good person carrying a handgun, particularly if they are wearing it in plain sight, always has to worry about a violent criminal attempting to disarm them and murder them or others with their own weapon. For many years, an average of one out of five police officer murdered in the line of duty nationwide, were killed with weapons snatched from themselves or their partners.” That number was cut in half by good officer survival practices; 1) snatch-resistant holsters, 2) semi-autos carried with an external safety in the on position, 3) concealable soft body armor.
“As time went on, the KISS principle took hold in American police training. The KISS principle held that thumbing off a safety when the officer had to draw and fire his own weapon in self-defense was an additional movement that might take too long or even be forgotten.” Retention holsters had been improved and training was modified to make officers more aware of the need to protect their firearm.
“The fact remains the on-safe pistol was a proven life-saver in these situations. The Los Angeles County Sheriff’s Department were mandated to carry their pistols, (mostly Berettas), on-safe,” instructors told Ayoob they lost count of the number of incidents in which disarmed deputies were saved by “the little lever”.

Openly wearing a handgun may discourage certain elements or the community but it makes you the primary target for those with violent intent or those who decide they want to acquire your handgun. Your exposed handgun marks you as a danger that needs to be eliminated like a uniformed police officer.
So Ayoob recommeds anyone who practices open carry have a handgun with an external manual safety and use a retention holster.
I live in MN, anyone not in uniform who open carrys sticks out like a sore thumb. In public you can expect to get in trouble within an hour. Open carry is viewed as brandishing in most instances. If open carry was an accepted method of carry in my state I would be likely carry either way. The circumstance would dictate the method. I only own one semi-auto with an external safety and it's not one of my go to carry pistols. I have two retention holsters, neither fits the handgun with the external, manual safety.

 

[Mainsail]

The good person carrying a handgun, particularly if they are wearing it in plain sight, always has to worry about a violent criminal attempting to disarm them and murder them or others with their own weapon.

The good person wearing a nice watch, driving a nice car, walking with an attractive woman, holding hands with their little girl or boy, etc., etc., always has to worry about a violent criminal…
Whatever, he has proven his ability to speculate. If you ever run into him, ask him if he has any evidence that it has ever happened.

For many years, an average of one out of five police officer murdered in the line of duty nationwide, were killed with weapons snatched from themselves or their partners…

That is an absolutely asinine comparison. I’m surprised a man with his background and knowledge would make such stupid statement. I am not aware of any police officer who was ever targeted solely for theft of his firearm. Police officers are disarmed by people with whom they are grappling or attempting to arrest. They aren’t robbed of their firearm out of the blue by someone who wanted it. Has it happened? Probably. But using his own logic, how come the police department never ordered their officers to conceal their sidearm to prevent it from happening again?

 

[NavyLCDR]

Especially if that good person is also a woman, unfortunatly hate motivated attacks on gay, lesbian, and bisexual people are all too comman. All the more reason for every gay, lesbian, and bisexual person to carry a firearm!

Well, according to the same theory expressed by the concealed carry only crowd (not me), in actuality the gay, lesbian and bisexual crowd should not display their orientation in public in order to prevent crimes being committed against them.

 

[mappow]

Tell that to Big Gay Al. :laugh:

If he's as big as he says and as gay, that's intimidating enough from me! :laugh:

 

[NavyLCDR]

I guess they should all get down to their recruiter to get out of the public eye, :rap: "In the Navy, Where you can sail the seven seas." :rap: "In the Navy, come on protect the motherland." :rap: "In the Navy, Oh can't you see we need a hand." :rap:

Concealed is concealed. What happens behind the closed hatches stays behind the closed hatches. Unless you are the CO of the Enterprise (CVN 65, not the starship!)

 

[S&W645]

Concealed is concealed. What happens behind the closed hatches stays behind the closed hatches. Unless you are the CO of the Enterprise (CVN 65, not the starship!)

That should read Ex-CO now.

 

[11B240gunner]

Well I open carry i was really anxouse to at first thinking i would draw alot of bad attention..... my first attempt was a lil of a shocker but i just push my self into it. I called the police verified that i really could do it.... So me and my friends went to the mall.... and i walked in and it went pretty well i did get some younger girls who were extremly fasicnated with it.... I did how ever get some notice form the law too.... After a short talk with him he talk to me a little bit about it.... He told me that it is always good to maintain a descent look ( not look trashy or like a thug) witch i didn't i am very clean cut I am us miltary.... and maybe not were a drop leg...... but lesson learned ...... no real hassle he was just makeing sure all was in order so i got a paddle holster and i really didn't have any issue after that ..... I have been noticed befor .... but not any negitive out comes just be calm polite and don't put ur hand on the weapon and u will be fine......I now do it in multiple states and I have never been hasseled since that day.... Enjoy your rights i am fighting for them..

 

[Beau]

The good person wearing a nice watch, driving a nice car, walking with an attractive woman, holding hands with their little girl or boy, etc., etc., always has to worry about a violent criminal…
Whatever, he has proven his ability to speculate. If you ever run into him, ask him if he has any evidence that it has ever happened.

That is an absolutely asinine comparison. I’m surprised a man with his background and knowledge would make such stupid statement. I am not aware of any police officer who was ever targeted solely for theft of his firearm. Police officers are disarmed by people with whom they are grappling or attempting to arrest. They aren’t robbed of their firearm out of the blue by someone who wanted it. Has it happened? Probably. But using his own logic, how come the police department never ordered their officers to conceal their sidearm to prevent it from happening again?

Agreed. Ayoob is a heck of a writer and a fountain of knowledge. This doesn't means he know all or is right on everything though. There simply is no evidence to back up his claims.

 

[Big Gay Al]

If he's as big as he says and as gay, that's intimidating enough from me! :laugh:

I'll only admit to being big, and being called "Al." Beyond that, all I'll say is, "Does my gun clash with my purse?" :biggrin:

 

[Big Gay Al]

Agreed. Ayoob is a heck of a writer and a fountain of knowledge. This doesn't means he know all or is right on everything though. There simply is no evidence to back up his claims.

I've read a lot of Mas Ayoob's opinions over the years. I respect the man for all the work he's done. But I don't agree with all of his opinions. :smile:

 

[Big Gay Al]

Does the local range post flyers for "Big Gay Al's Big Gay Shooting Day"? :laugh: I couldn't resist another Southpark referance. :laugh:

Hey, that's an idea!! :biggrin:

 

[Big Gay Al]

I must have let this one slip by me. Aparently I posted that post on Big Gay Al's Big Gay 55th Birthday. :laugh: Happy Birthday Al, and I hope you enjoyed a slice of Big Gay Birthdaycake. :biggrin:

My doctors say it's not good for me anymore. :sad: But what they don't know, won't hurt me. :biggrin:

 

[Big Gay Al]

You might try making the cake and icing with Splenda, instead of sugar, if that is the main concern.

I used to think that sugar was the main concern for diabetics, it's actually carbs. Apparently carbs turn to sugar, or something like that, so have to watch the carb intake. What I found really odd, they don't mind if I use brown sugar. I'm still trying to figure that one out. :laugh:

 

[BowhuntnHoosier]

Seems to me OC'ers and CC'ers like to argue about which way is better. But in the end we much decide for ourselves how we want to carry as long as it is within the laws of the state. I have a 21 year old son and he is uncomfortable carrying with one in the chamber. I have told him its like carrying around a paper weight but he is the one who must make the decision not me. We both CC but I am not at all against OC. I just like to keep a low profile. Maybe in the future I will do some OC. But that is my choice. So I think we all need to start supporting each other more no matter how we decide to carry. Just as long as we carry and try our best to educate others as to why we believe it is important to carry. Have a nice day everyone and God bless.

 

[Big Gay Al]

Seems to me OC'ers and CC'ers like to argue about which way is better. But in the end we much decide for ourselves how we want to carry as long as it is within the laws of the state. I have a 21 year old son and he is uncomfortable carrying with one in the chamber. I have told him its like carrying around a paper weight but he is the one who must make the decision not me. We both CC but I am not at all against OC. I just like to keep a low profile. Maybe in the future I will do some OC. But that is my choice. So I think we all need to start supporting each other more no matter how we decide to carry. Just as long as we carry and try our best to educate others as to why we believe it is important to carry. Have a nice day everyone and God bless.

The big problem is some CCers are RABIDLY anti-OC. They've had it ingrained in them that OC is "bad" and CC is "good." Never mind that in most of the states that haven't outlawed it, CC is a "privilege" and OC is a right.

Some OCers can't get past the idea that as long as they're in a shall issue state, the see that as exercising their right. Never mind they still have to pay for a license/permit and still have certain hoops they have to jump through. You can't tell them it's not a right, long as they get theirs.

Me, I OC/CC by the season. In winter time, I CC more than OC. In warmer months, I OC more than CC. Which is why I do have a CPL. Also so I don't have to take my pistol off before I get in my car.

 

[mappow]

The big problem is some CCers are RABIDLY anti-OC. They've had it ingrained in them that OC is "bad" and CC is "good." Never mind that in most of the states that haven't outlawed it, CC is a "privilege" and OC is a right.

Great words Al, can't put it any plainer then that. Just wish SC would understand the message concerning OC, It's a Right!