The Case for Eternal Punishment

[Oldgrunt]

The main difference between religion and a cult? The very valuable 'tax exempt' status, worth millions and millions of dollars.

The tax-exempt status is a boon for churches and we all know it. I doubt that you would agree but, if we didn't have that status, we would not lose our belief in God. Remember, "...render therefore unto Caesar the things which are Caesar's; and unto God the things that are God's." Matt. 22:21. We will still be following God regardless. If Caesar (the government) takes away that status, God will continue to provide for our needs.


cult

noun

1. a. a system of religious worship or ritual

b. a quasi-religious group, often living in a colony, with a charismatic leader who indoctrinates members with unorthodox or extremist views, practices, or beliefs

c. devoted attachment to, or extravagant admiration for, a person, principle, or lifestyle, esp. when regarded as a fad: the cult of nudism
the object of such attachment

2. a group of followers; sect

Origin of cult
; from Classical Latin cultus, care, cultivation, origin, originally past participle of colere, to till: see wheel

Link Removed

 

[Ringo]

I am a member of one of the religions that Ringo labeled as a "cult" and I'm so sick of that label being misconstrued to malign my religion.

If you have a problem with your "religion" being cursed and labeled as a cult don't blame the messenger, take it up with God.

Galatians 1:8-9

"But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let him be accursed. As we have said before, so I say again now, if any man is preaching to you a gospel contrary to what you received, let him be eternally condemned!'​

 

[Twistedcowboy]

If you have a problem with your "religion" being cursed and labeled as a cult don't blame the messenger, take it up with God.

Galatians 1:8-9

"But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let him be accursed. As we have said before, so I say again now, if any man is preaching to you a gospel contrary to what you received, let him be eternally condemned!'​

Cursed? Because you say so? Wow! That awfully high and mighty of you. Sounds like you run your own "cult."
"Take it up with God." One of the main tenets of my church. The only one that sends thousands of missionaries out every year to preach that very message: here's what we know, now you pray and ask if its true. And you know what? You can look it up, fastest growing church on earth because that message works and the Holy Spirit bears record of it.
You can disparage it all you want based on your man created theology. You will stand before the Lord one day, and then you will know. Sad thing is, you could know now if your heart wasn't as hard as Pharaoh's.

 

[Ringo]

Cursed? Because you say so? Wow! That awfully high and mighty of you. Sounds like you run your own "cult."
.

Are you really so IGNORANT??? The word of God spoken through Paul the Apostle "says so".

Read it for yourself, it's in the Bible. You know, the Bible? Or, maybe you don't believe the Bible?

Galatians 1:8-9

"But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let him be accursed. As we have said before, so I say again now, if any man is preaching to you a gospel contrary to what you received, let him be eternally condemned!'​

 

[XD40scinNC]

Are you really so IGNORANT??? The word of God spoken through Paul the Apostle "says so".

Read it for yourself, it's in the Bible. You know, the Bible? Or, maybe you don't believe the Bible?

Makes it pretty clear that you HATE everyone and anyone that is not marching in lockstep with your narrow views.

You seem to be cut from the same ignorance based hate as a pentacostal preacher I heard at a funeral telling all the baptists in attendance that they were going straight to hell because of their beliefs.

 

[Twistedcowboy]

Wow Ringo. You are certainly well versed in your anti-Mormon theology. It is really really sad to me that you would spend so much time attacking someone else's salvation rather than working on your own. Believe what ever you want. I do not condemn you to hell. Nor does my church, that part was left out of your little anti-Mormon rant. But let me enlighten you on the Bible, which I do believe, and seem to know better than you. Try spending more time reading the Bible rather than anti-Mormon books.
Baptism for the dead is in the Bible. (1 Corinthians 15:29)
Pre-existance is referred to in the Bible. (Jeremiah 1:4-5) The Lord says He KNEW Jeremiah, not knew of him, KNEW him.
If you believe in the Bible, you believe in polygamy. Correct me if I'm wrong (I'm not) but Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob all had more than one wife. Some (non Mormon) scholars contend Jesus had two wives.
You, as most of Christianity believe in the Trinity. Jesus himself debunked that in the intercessory prayer in John 17. Praying to His Father on behalf of the apostles, THREE TIMES He says "let them be one AS YOU AND I ARE ONE." If this schizophrenic amoeba Trinity theory is true, then He was asking His Father to turn the apostles into one schizophrenic person. But the Council of Nicea haggled over doctrine and created the Nicean Creed that Christianity has blindly followed ever since.
Can we become like God? Paul says so. Romans 8:16-17. Paul says we are "heirs" of God. What is an heir? It's someone who inherits what the other has.
Let me ask you this: where are you going when you die? You probably think you are going straight to heaven because you are "saved" right? So you are sooooooo righteous that you don't have to wait for the day of judgment like everyone else. Does Jesus come to you for advice too since you are that incredibly perfect?
You mention temples. Moses had a makeshift temple. That's where the Ark of the Covenant stayed. Solomon built a lavish temple before he turned to sin. And the Bible says that temple has to be rebuilt before Jesus will return. Who is the only church building temples? I will NOT discuss what happens in temples with the likes of you. I will not violate the sanctity of those covenants by arguing about them with someone consumed with hatred for them.
I could go on about your points but why bother? You know you are right and just and perfect and we should all be bowing to you. I suggest you put down any literature condemning ANY other religion. IF I am wrong, you are NOT acting anything like the Saviour. When the Pharisees brought the woman caught in adultery, how did Jesus treat her? That my friend is your example. Again, neither I nor my church nor its doctrines condemn you. Distorting things does not make it true. I could give you two verses in the Bible that explain, both by Peter, but I don't think it will do any good.
And now, I bid farewell to this post. Contention is of the devil and I refuse to engage in that behavior.

 

[NotTwoShure]

Here is an issue I am well versed in. My county has a LDS temple, most every single close friend I have are LDS, one was a Bishop for 5 years. I have P of G. P., B o M, D.C. and have read both. I have an LDS KJ Bible. They do not jive even with each other. The Book of Abraham is a total fabrication and has nothing to do with what Joseph Smith claimed was in the bought scrolls. Every Egyptologist that has reviewed the scroll has stated it is in grave error with Smith's translation. DNA shows the Americas have nothing to do with the Hebrews or the Jews. The battles fought as listed in these books have no artifacts, no maps exists in relation to the places listed. If you wish to have faith in LDS fine and I could care less, however, when the Elders come to my door they will not discuss the facts with me. The Hebrew/Christian Bible has many "Back-ups" of secular history, the Dead Sea Scrolls, Josephus and others. None of the LDS books do. The main issue I have is the many gods and the claim we may be gods if we are good and follow the Temple rituals. The claim of Satan and Jesus being brothers and that the priesthood was dead and had to be brought back by Smith. Faith is faith, fact is fact.

Wow Ringo. You are certainly well versed in your anti-Mormon theology. It is really really sad to me that you would spend so much time attacking someone else's salvation rather than working on your own. Believe what ever you want. I do not condemn you to hell. Nor does my church, that part was left out of your little anti-Mormon rant. But let me enlighten you on the Bible, which I do believe, and seem to know better than you. Try spending more time reading the Bible rather than anti-Mormon books.
Baptism for the dead is in the Bible. (1 Corinthians 15:29)
Pre-existance is referred to in the Bible. (Jeremiah 1:4-5) The Lord says He KNEW Jeremiah, not knew of him, KNEW him.
If you believe in the Bible, you believe in polygamy. Correct me if I'm wrong (I'm not) but Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob all had more than one wife. Some (non Mormon) scholars contend Jesus had two wives.
You, as most of Christianity believe in the Trinity. Jesus himself debunked that in the intercessory prayer in John 17. Praying to His Father on behalf of the apostles, THREE TIMES He says "let them be one AS YOU AND I ARE ONE." If this schizophrenic amoeba Trinity theory is true, then He was asking His Father to turn the apostles into one schizophrenic person. But the Council of Nicea haggled over doctrine and created the Nicean Creed that Christianity has blindly followed ever since.
Can we become like God? Paul says so. Romans 8:16-17. Paul says we are "heirs" of God. What is an heir? It's someone who inherits what the other has.
Let me ask you this: where are you going when you die? You probably think you are going straight to heaven because you are "saved" right? So you are sooooooo righteous that you don't have to wait for the day of judgment like everyone else. Does Jesus come to you for advice too since you are that incredibly perfect?
You mention temples. Moses had a makeshift temple. That's where the Ark of the Covenant stayed. Solomon built a lavish temple before he turned to sin. And the Bible says that temple has to be rebuilt before Jesus will return. Who is the only church building temples? I will NOT discuss what happens in temples with the likes of you. I will not violate the sanctity of those covenants by arguing about them with someone consumed with hatred for them.
I could go on about your points but why bother? You know you are right and just and perfect and we should all be bowing to you. I suggest you put down any literature condemning ANY other religion. IF I am wrong, you are NOT acting anything like the Saviour. When the Pharisees brought the woman caught in adultery, how did Jesus treat her? That my friend is your example. Again, neither I nor my church nor its doctrines condemn you. Distorting things does not make it true. I could give you two verses in the Bible that explain, both by Peter, but I don't think it will do any good.
And now, I bid farewell to this post. Contention is of the devil and I refuse to engage in that behavior.

 

[Twistedcowboy]

Here is an issue I am well versed in. My county has a LDS temple, most every single close friend I have are LDS, one was a Bishop for 5 years. I have P of G. P., B o M, D.C. and have read both. I have an LDS KJ Bible. They do not jive even with each other. The Book of Abraham is a total fabrication and has nothing to do with what Joseph Smith claimed was in the bought scrolls. Every Egyptologist that has reviewed the scroll has stated it is in grave error with Smith's translation. DNA shows the Americas have nothing to do with the Hebrews or the Jews. The battles fought as listed in these books have no artifacts, no maps exists in relation to the places listed. If you wish to have faith in LDS fine and I could care less, however, when the Elders come to my door they will not discuss the facts with me. The Hebrew/Christian Bible has many "Back-ups" of secular history, the Dead Sea Scrolls, Josephus and others. None of the LDS books do. The main issue I have is the many gods and the claim we may be gods if we are good and follow the Temple rituals. The claim of Satan and Jesus being brothers and that the priesthood was dead and had to be brought back by Smith. Faith is faith, fact is fact.

For goodness sake. I unfollow a thread and still get notifications! But since you got me back here, so you're the world's leading expert on LDS theology because you have LDS friends. Egyptologists don't approve of the Book of Abraham.... So you hire plumbers when you have an electrical problem? I hate to break it to ya, but Abraham was not an Egyptian.
"Faith is faith and facts are facts." That is absolutely hilarious coming from someone claiming to be religious. Scientific fact: the earth is about 4 billion years old. The Bible says otherwise. Faith or fact? Science says there was no flood. The Bible says otherwise. Faith or fact? Science says miracles like Elijah bringing down fire from heaven or Moses parting the Red Sea didn't happen. The Bible says otherwise. Faith or fact?
Notice this post has become nothing more than and LDS bashing session. Satan is laughing his butt off.
Now I'm done here. I'll delete the whole forum if I have too. I have had miracles in my life confirm my beliefs. I have felt the influence of the Holy Spirit confirm my beliefs. I have had promptings from the Holy Spirit to bring scriptures to my remembrance when I needed them. I know beyond any doubt that what my church teaches is true, not by blind faith but by manifestations of the Holy Spirit.
XD if you are reading this, I must say I think you're the most agreeable person on here. I am not trying to convert you, that's between you and God.
Oldgrunt, buddy, you backed up my point whether you realize it or not. Thank you.
If I get another notification about this post I will ignore it. I'm done here. Bask in Satan's contentious mire all you want. I'm pulling myself out.

 

[NotTwoShure]

Link Removed




=Twistedcowboy;574600]For goodness sake. I unfollow a thread and still get notifications! But since you got me back here, so you're the world's leading expert on LDS theology because you have LDS friends. Egyptologists don't approve of the Book of Abraham.... So you hire plumbers when you have an electrical problem? I hate to break it to ya, but Abraham was not an Egyptian.
"Faith is faith and facts are facts." That is absolutely hilarious coming from someone claiming to be religious. Scientific fact: the earth is about 4 billion years old. The Bible says otherwise. Faith or fact? Science says there was no flood. The Bible says otherwise. Faith or fact? Science says miracles like Elijah bringing down fire from heaven or Moses parting the Red Sea didn't happen. The Bible says otherwise. Faith or fact?
Notice this post has become nothing more than and LDS bashing session. Satan is laughing his butt off.
Now I'm done here. I'll delete the whole forum if I have too. I have had miracles in my life confirm my beliefs. I have felt the influence of the Holy Spirit confirm my beliefs. I have had promptings from the Holy Spirit to bring scriptures to my remembrance when I needed them. I know beyond any doubt that what my church teaches is true, not by blind faith but by manifestations of the Holy Spirit.
XD if you are reading this, I must say I think you're the most agreeable person on here. I am not trying to convert you, that's between you and God.
Oldgrunt, buddy, you backed up my point whether you realize it or not. Thank you.
If I get another notification about this post I will ignore it. I'm done here. Bask in Satan's contentious mire all you want. I'm pulling myself out.[/QUOTE]

 

[Fallschirmjäger]

It's funny when they argue so hard amongst themselves.

 

[Farmhood]

Don't kid yourself...there is no "amongst themselves" going on.

sinful nature is always hostile to God....

 

[XD40scinNC]

Don't kid yourself...there is no "amongst themselves" going on.

Denial is not a river in Egypt.

 

[NotTwoShure]

False doctrine 2 Timothy 01:10, 1 Kings 13:16-22, Romans 16:17 and 2 Thessalonians 3:6. Qualifications for an overseer, 1 Timothy 3:01-16. So, we are not to have dealings with anyone who brings false doctrine or another or even different Christ especially this one, Galatians 1:8. But quotes of my Holy Book mean nothing to a non-believer. (Buddy Bro Farmhood and Ringo understand where I am coming from)

Don't kid yourself...there is no "amongst themselves" going on.

sinful nature is always hostile to God....

 

[Fallschirmjäger]

Don't kid yourself...there is no "amongst themselves" going on.

sinful nature is always hostile to God....

So, ya sayin' that they aren't united under that fictional guy what hisself got nailed to the big wooden "T" thing?
Or that only one of them has the right fictional mythology and the other fictional mythologies are full'a dingdong?

Maybe I'm just confused by all the arguing I see amongst the agnostics and atheists about who's the most right.

 

[NotTwoShure]

what is hisself? Most of the Old and New Testament has a document trail dating back many thousand years. Even secular history. Faith is faith. Explaining blue to a blind person is probably hard, I don't know. End of my story, thanks for viewing us tonight, I don't know what in Hell people want.

 

[Fallschirmjäger]

More than likely, how Jesus really felt about the whole thing...
[redacted]

Y'know, seeing as some are so prissy, I'm not even going to post Or link to the picture. But I bet if you go to Imgur and append /bRQfv.jpg you'll understand what I mean. But I'm neither linking nor posting.

 

[Oldgrunt]

XD, as I originally said, I hate these religious posts on a gun forum. I respect everyone's right to believe as the will. I agree with some of the things both sides have said. Christians can be very judgmental, but so can agnostics. Islam is the most judgmental, in my humble opinion. I am a member of one of the religions that Ringo labeled as a "cult" and I'm so sick of that label being misconstrued to malign my religion.
I believe very strongly in the phrase, "you can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink." I can present what I know is true, but I cannot force anyone to believe. And as for "Christian" churches, mine does more to help humanity than any other, but it doesn't brag so you never hear about it. My church gives out more humanitarian aid than the Red Cross, but it does it very quietly. I am a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, and I will not apologize for that. But I do not think this forum is the appropriate place to evangelize people.

Sent from my Xoom using USA Carry mobile app

TC: You are in the Off Topic section so religious posts are indeed appropriate here. If you are satisfied with your particular religion, Mormonism,so be it. I am a Catholic and my religion has been maligned as much as any other but I don't worry about the name over the door. It is my relationship with Jesus Christ which makes the difference, not the trappings of the church. The Bible says to "work out your own salvation with fear and trembling." We all have our beliefs, which are generally in sync as far as God and Jesus Christ are concerned. Unfortunately, your religion has been labeled as a cult by numerous Biblical scholars and the basic tenets challenged because of differences with the Bible and some historical claims for your origin. Don't be thin-skinned, stick up for your beliefs just as the rest of us do. The repartee is great!

 

[Ringo]

I am a member of one of the religions that Ringo labeled as a "cult" and I'm so sick of that label being misconstrued to malign my religion.
And as for "Christian" churches, mine does more to help humanity than any other. My church gives out more humanitarian aid than the Red Cross.. I am a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, and I will not apologize for that.

Mormons insist they are Christians but just not by our definition. They say they believe in Jesus because the name of their church is the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

However, if they believe in Jesus, they would certainly believe in what Jesus Christ taught.

Check and see whether Jesus taught any of the following Mormon beliefs in the Bible:


1. The plurality of Gods (Mormon Doctrine pp. 576, 577)

2. The baptism for the dead done in holy temples (Mormon Doctrine pp. 72,73)

3. Celestial marriage which no unworthy member or outsider can attend (Mormon Doctrine pp. 117, 118)

4. Polygamy needed to become a God (Journal of Discourse, Vol. II p. 269)

5. Blacks were cursed with a dark skin (Mormon Doctrine p. 109)

6. You can become a God if you are worthy; celestial marriage required (Mormon Doctrine p. 118)

7. We were all pre-existent spirits (Mormon Doctrine p. 589)

8. God has a body of flesh and bones (Mormon Doctrine p. 289)

9. We have a Heavenly Mother as well as a Heavenly Father (Mormon Doctrine p. 516)

10. There are three levels of heaven. To go to the highest kingdom, you must be a Mormon. Honorable persons go to the Terrestrial kingdom. The dishonest, liars, sorcerers, adulterers and whoremongers go to the Telestial kingdom . (Mormon Doctrine pp. 420, 421)

11. God and his wife achieved a celestial marriage (Celestial Marriage Manual p. 1)

12. Heavenly Father died just like Jesus (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith p. 346)

13. God was once just like us and progressed to godhood (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith p. 345)

14. God has a father and His Father has a Father, etc. (Mormon Doctrine p. 322)

15. Jesus and Lucifer are spirit brothers (Mormon Doctrine p. 192)

16. Jesus and Lucifer each had a plan to people the earth. Jesus' plan was chosen and caused Lucifer to rebel and he and the angels that followed him were cast out of heaven. (Mormon Doctrine p. 193)

17. God lives near a star called Kolob (Mormon Doctrine p. 428)

18. Temple endowments are so sacred that you must be worthy to enter (Mormon Doctrine pp. 619, 620)

19. Jesus was not able to keep his church together (History of the Church Vol. 6 pp. 408, 409)

20. In the future, you will need Joseph Smith's consent in order to enter the celestial kingdom (Journal of Discourse Vol. 7 p.289)

21. Not everything you'll need to know concerning salvation will be recorded in the Bible but there will be additional scriptures (Mormon Doctrine p. 83)



It is not because Mormons don't agree with our definition of Christianity. It's because Mormonism teaches doctrines that are contrary to Biblical Christianity which disqualifies them from being called Christian.

Galatians 1:8-9

"But even if we or an angel (Moroni) from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let him be accursed. As we have said before, so I say again now, if any man is preaching to you a gospel contrary to what you received, let him be eternally condemned!'

2 Timothy 3:5

"Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away".

Matthew 7:21

"Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven. On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ "And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, you that work iniquity".​

Christianity is man getting to God, God's way, through Jesus ONLY. Religion is man attempting to get to God, man's way, that being any way EXCEPT through Jesus.

 

[NotTwoShure]

Ringo, you can quote and list and discuss facts with our LDS brothers and sisters but it is pointless. I know. They are mislead. They have another Jesus. They will not sit down and discuss the issues.

Mormons insist they are Christians but just not by our definition. They say they believe in Jesus because the name of their church is the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

However, if they believe in Jesus, they would certainly believe in what Jesus Christ taught.

Check and see whether Jesus taught any of the following Mormon beliefs in the Bible:


1. The plurality of Gods (Mormon Doctrine pp. 576, 577)

2. The baptism for the dead done in holy temples (Mormon Doctrine pp. 72,73)

3. Celestial marriage which no unworthy member or outsider can attend (Mormon Doctrine pp. 117, 118)

4. Polygamy needed to become a God (Journal of Discourse, Vol. II p. 269)

5. Blacks were cursed with a dark skin (Mormon Doctrine p. 109)

6. You can become a God if you are worthy; celestial marriage required (Mormon Doctrine p. 118)

7. We were all pre-existent spirits (Mormon Doctrine p. 589)

8. God has a body of flesh and bones (Mormon Doctrine p. 289)

9. We have a Heavenly Mother as well as a Heavenly Father (Mormon Doctrine p. 516)

10. There are three levels of heaven. To go to the highest kingdom, you must be a Mormon. Honorable persons go to the Terrestrial kingdom. The dishonest, liars, sorcerers, adulterers and whoremongers go to the Telestial kingdom . (Mormon Doctrine pp. 420, 421)

11. God and his wife achieved a celestial marriage (Celestial Marriage Manual p. 1)

12. Heavenly Father died just like Jesus (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith p. 346)

13. God was once just like us and progressed to godhood (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith p. 345)

14. God has a father and His Father has a Father, etc. (Mormon Doctrine p. 322)

15. Jesus and Lucifer are spirit brothers (Mormon Doctrine p. 192)

16. Jesus and Lucifer each had a plan to people the earth. Jesus' plan was chosen and caused Lucifer to rebel and he and the angels that followed him were cast out of heaven. (Mormon Doctrine p. 193)

17. God lives near a star called Kolob (Mormon Doctrine p. 428)

18. Temple endowments are so sacred that you must be worthy to enter (Mormon Doctrine pp. 619, 620)

19. Jesus was not able to keep his church together (History of the Church Vol. 6 pp. 408, 409)

20. In the future, you will need Joseph Smith's consent in order to enter the celestial kingdom (Journal of Discourse Vol. 7 p.289)

21. Not everything you'll need to know concerning salvation will be recorded in the Bible but there will be additional scriptures (Mormon Doctrine p. 83)



It is not because Mormons don't agree with our definition of Christianity. It's because Mormonism teaches doctrines that are contrary to Biblical Christianity which disqualifies them from being called Christian.

Galatians 1:8-9

"But even if we or an angel (Moroni) from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let him be accursed. As we have said before, so I say again now, if any man is preaching to you a gospel contrary to what you received, let him be eternally condemned!'

2 Timothy 3:5

"Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away".

Matthew 7:21

"Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven. On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ "And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, you that work iniquity".​

Christianity is man getting to God, God's way, through Jesus ONLY. Religion is man attempting to get to God, man's way, that being any way EXCEPT through Jesus.

 

[Ringo]

Ringo, you can quote and list and discuss facts with our LDS brothers and sisters but it is pointless. I know. They are mislead. They have another Jesus.

Which is why LDS are not our brothers & sisters.

"Do not be bound together with unbelievers; for what partnership have righteousness and lawlessness, or what fellowship has light with darkness? Or what harmony has Christ with Belial, or what has a believer in common with an unbeliever"?