Tell Officer of CCP when pulled over when NOT carrying?

[NavyLCDR]

Yo' d*** skippy I'm not. Gecko45 is a troll, a fictional character. I'm the real mccoy, a true warrior who's been to Hell and pimp slapped the Devil.

And has the PTSD to prove it!

 

[NavyLCDR]

You're arguing with yourself. Either they're thugs who'll kill you for obeying the law or they aren't. Pick ONE.

I have not the slightest intention of EVER notifying when not carrying. It isn't required by Ohio law, and that's what I obey, the LAW, not made up "courtesies" rendered to potential bullies. No bully ever STOPPED being a bully because he got what he wanted by BEING a bully.

If a cop wants to act out because I obeyed the law rather than his whim, I say bring it.

Very well said!

 

[indyyy]

My wife is in the car with me, but I never told her about obtaining CCP and didn't want to tell her as she is very anti-gun anti-2nd amendment.

I think I'd be more scared about the wife finding out that I got the permit without telling her than telling the cop when he pulled me over... are you still amongst the living BFloyd ?

 

[NavyLCDR]

Tell Officer of CCP when pulled over when NOT carrying?

Do you also tell the officer about a pilot's license when not flying an airplane?

 

[BFloyd]

I think I'd be more scared about the wife finding out that I got the permit without telling her than telling the cop when he pulled me over... are you still amongst the living BFloyd ?

Thanks, Indyyy. I was more scared of my wife finding out about the CCP than I was of any officer finding out that I had a CCP.

I’m still among the living. My wife briefly chastised me for not telling her about the CCP. She did so at the auto parts store that we stopped in to buy the bulb 20 minutes after the ranger had pulled me over. (As we had to drive through 4 jurisdictions to get home, I replaced the bulb right away while in the auto parts store’s parking lot, lest additional police stop me that night.)

At any rate, there have been no further questions or comments about the CCP or about the locations and types of guns in the house. I certainly don’t plan to stir the hornets’ nest as I think that she would rather not know.

 

[XD40scinNC]

Thanks, Indyyy. I was more scared of my wife finding out about the CCP than I was of any officer finding out that I had a CCP.

Really??????? Guess we know who wears the frilly panties in your household.

 

[NavyLCDR]

Really??????? Guess we know who wears the frilly panties in your household.

Coming from you?!? Really? Mr. "do whatever it takes" to make Officer Friendly feel "at ease"...

 

[BFloyd]

Really??????? Guess we know who wears the frilly panties in your household.

You're a funny guy. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E84VqqCPI7w

 

[BFloyd]

Thanks to all who posted all the thoughtful responses.

I can see that there are strong feelings on both sides of this question. I’m not sure that there is a right or wrong answer as to whether to mention CCP if not carrying.

Mentioning the CCP when not carrying may depend on the jurisdiction, personal preference and/or one’s own experience with officers of a particular police force.

I should admit my generally pro-police bias here. One relative was a career officer, while another currently is. A high school friend was an officer, albeit only for 3 years a long time ago.
Reading XD40scinNC’s earlier comments and reading the Roanoke officer’s comments (see below), I agree with XD40scinNC and will probably notify officers in the future. I respect those who disagree with that position.

I may post more later, but wanted to post this apparently from a Roanoke, Virginia police officer and see what people think of the officer’s comments [from a post within Link Removed

I wish this is something they covered when issuing Carry Concealed Weapon (CCW) permits. Although I guess in Virginia it's technically a Carry Concealed Handgun but the common acronym around the country seems to be CCW.

Anyway, in a state like VA there are a lot of guns, legally, and we do run into them occasionally. I know the politicians would like to hear they cause problems but they don't. It's very rare to come across someone legally carrying a concealed gun. Once in a while a thug without a record is doing it but it's short lived since they usually disqualify themselves with a criminal record pretty quickly.

One of the few times that I do run into legal CCW's is on traffic stops or car accidents. This is one of the few times that normally law abiding folks end up coming into contact with law enforcement.

Here's how most stops for traffic infractions happen. I take off after a car and I'll call it in to dispatch so they know where I am.

Me: "RoaVaPD traffic stop." Activate blue lights and start the stop.

Dispatch acknowledges: "RoaVaPD traffic stop."

"RoaVaPD traffic stop Mason Mill at 13th St Northeast on Oh-Nine Virginia Alpha Bravo Charlie 1-2-3-4, grey Toyota Carolla, one occupant."

The car stops and I walk up. At this point dispatch might might run the tag and let me know if it's stolen or the owner is suspended.

I'll make contact with the driver and request their license and registration and inform them why I stopped them. When I return to my car I'll use my computer to check the car and the driver and for their DMV record and see if they are wanted.

When we do a DMV check the computer automatically checks VCIN. That's the Virginia Criminal Information Network and we pronounce it "Vee-Sin." VCIN contains records for, among other things, stolen cars, the Virginia Sex Offender Registry, and the CCW files. If whoever I'm running (the driver) has a CCW I'll get a response with all their information (name, address, date of birth, height, weight, eye color, hair color, when the permit expires, and the court that issued it.)

At this point I usually have a short out of body experience as I involuntarily shudder from being so close to a gun I didn't know about. Rationally I know that the holder is a law abiding citizen who has been through a background check. But the paranoid cop in me wonders why the driver didn't tell me. Are they planning on using the gun when I return with a ticket? Some people don't act rationally when we issue them a traffic summons.

If you have a CCW and you get stopped here's what I would prefer, and I think most cops would agree.

Get as far on the shoulder or off the road as you safely can. At night turn on your dome light. Roll down all four windows if you have power windows. Turn the engine off and place your hands on your steering wheel. Don't start digging around for your registration card, I can't tell if you are stashing a gun or getting one out. When I approach tell me you have a CCW and tell me where the gun is. Even if you aren't carrying I won't know that when I get the computer return so just tell me.

Me: "I'm Officer Paranoid with the Roanoke Police Department, the reason I stopped you tonight is I saw you roll through that stop sign back there, can I see your license and registration please?"

You, before you take your hands off the wheel: "Yes, officer I have a concealed handgun permit and my gun is on my right hip/in my backpack on the passenger seat/in the trunk/at home I'm not carrying it tonight."

If you are standing on the side of the road or in a parking lot after a car crash it's still the same. I'll walk up and ask each of the drivers what happened and return to my car with all the documentation. When you hand me your stuff, before I go to my car, ask to speak to me privately. Discretely tell me you have the CCW and where the gun is.

If you are a passenger in a car I won't know unless I run you. You can inform me upfront when I talk to the driver as a matter of courtesy. If for some reason I get around to checking the passengers and discover the CCW from the computer I'll have the same reaction I mentioned above.

If you go through a DWI or other checkpoint have your documents ready before reaching the officer. As you hand the officer your license, registration, insurance and CCW permit tell them where your gun is, even if it's just at home.

We often get lookouts for cars leaving the scene of crimes or suspicious activity. We'll stop cars or people who match that description and identify them and attempt to discover if they are one and the same with what was involved in the incident. You may be stopped as a purely investigative stop to identify you and see if you were involved with a crime because your car description is the same. If you didn't just rob the bank or burglarize a business etc you have nothing to worry about and will be released quickly. You may not know why we are stopping you so just be upfront about the CCW and where the gun is, even if it's just at home.

Depending on whether I'm alone or why I stopped you or my level of paranoia I may ask for the gun. I will return it when our contact is over. Some over zealous rookie may take your rounds out or return the gun with the magazine removed. Sorry about that. I won't though.

Most cops, especially when you get away from major metropolitan areas, are hunters. Many have military backgrounds, and many have their own personal firearms. Personally I'm very glad for CCW's and I had one before I was a cop. I'm not going to bust your chops for having it. I'm a bit of a gun nut myself. In fact I've used my discretion on several traffic stops and gave a verbal warning rather than a ticket because I was grateful for the driver informing me up front and then chatting about guns with me while I admired their carry handgun.

My training in the academy about legal guns was pretty lacking. I suspect most cops are very poorly trained on legal guns. Most of what I know is self taught. I've heard nightmares (not around here) about cops who order CCW's out of cars at gunpoint and handcuff and disarm them during the stop just because they identified themselves as legally armed. I think that's horrific and most cops probably agree with me. That's the response for someone who just committed a felony but most cops are so poorly trained about legal guns they don't know anything except high risk disarming. Keep in mind though if I think you match the description for a burglary suspect who just left the scene of the crime you may get a high risk disarming. I'll at least explain why when the dust settles. But you shouldn't get that treatment just because you are a legal CCW.

If you run into one of these cops just comply with everything they tell you to do. Arguing with us on the side of the road will never get you anything and usually tends to escalate the situation even more. If you are treated heavy handed by a poorly trained cop just cooperate. When it's over you can file an official complaint with the department. If you believe that your civil rights were violated then talk to an attorney. Your recourse is after the stop not during it. Always cooperate to avoid escalating the problem.

===================================

Ignoring juvenile attacks and remarks on the internet for over two decades.

It's nice to be important, but it's more important to be nice. - John Cassis on manners

 

[gunholsterdepot]

I remember my carry instructor saying something like about 50% of cops support CCW, and 50% don't, so if you do say it without them asking, it's possible you get one that doesn't and then he's possibly going to go harder on you. I never tell an officer unless they ask, and then I do exactly what you did. Only say I'm carrying if I am, not if I just have my permit.

 

[NavyLCDR]

From post #49:

At this point I usually have a short out of body experience as I involuntarily shudder from being so close to a gun I didn't know about. Rationally I know that the holder is a law abiding citizen who has been through a background check. But the paranoid cop in me wonders why the driver didn't tell me. Are they planning on using the gun when I return with a ticket? Some people don't act rationally when we issue them a traffic summons.

Notice what happens here. Finding out that the subject stopped has been through a background check in addition to having no outstanding warrants turns Mr. "Rational" cop into Mr. "Paranoid" cop. I don't cater to paranoid people - I protect myself from them. Here's the kicker - once the officer finds out from the state that I possess a VALID license/permit to carry a gun, unless there is a specific law that allows the officer to disarm me, it is against the Supreme Court ruling in Terry v. Ohio and the 4th Amendment for the police officer to seize my gun. Just because I show him a piece of paper or a card does mean that it is valid. But when they receive information from the state - that means it is valid.

This is from the Terry ruling:

We merely hold today that, where a police officer observes unusual conduct which leads him reasonably to conclude in light of his experience that criminal activity may be afoot and that the persons with whom he is dealing may be armed and presently dangerous, where, in the course of investigating this behavior, he identifies himself as a policeman and makes reasonable inquiries, and where nothing in the initial stages of the encounter serves to dispel his reasonable fear for his own or others' safety, he is entitled for the protection of himself and others in the area to conduct a carefully limited search of the outer clothing of such persons in an attempt to discover weapons which might be used to assault him. [p31] Such a search is a reasonable search under the Fourth Amendment, and any weapons seized may properly be introduced in evidence against the person from whom they were taken.

Mr. "paranoid" cop - his own words - admits that to a "rational" cop finding out information that the subject has passed a background check and possesses a valid license/permit should dispel reasonable fear for his own or others' safety - which removes his "entitlement" to search and seize weapons. And that is why I won't disclose anything - if the cop isn't concerned enough to ask about it up front - it is his problem if he becomes concerned when he gets further proof that I am a normally law abiding citizen - and if he wants to act on his paranoia after that, we can further discuss his paranoia issues in front of a judge.

 

[BluesStringer]

I should admit my generally pro-police bias here.

No need. It is painfully obvious.

I may post more later, but wanted to post this apparently from a Roanoke, Virginia police officer and see what people think of the officer’s comments [from a post within Link Removed

Other than keying on the same passages Navy did, what I was thinking as I was reading that cannot be posted here without me getting banned. Screw that badged thug. He's a lawbreaker. He's a rights violator. He's the problem, not me because I use the law in what I believe is my own best interests, which is not to notify precisely for the reasons that Navy laid out for you. He's the enemy, and so too are all the people who lick his self-evident superiority-complex boots.

Any other questions?

Blues

 

[tcox4freedom]

I was in an accident last year (after 30+ years of a near perfect record). One "county" cop witnessed the accident, checked on me & the other driver and began directing traffic while we waited on a SCHP officer to arrive. After taking a 30min report from the other driver, the HP officer finally got around to me. I handed him my DL, PoI & my CWP. His exact response to my CWP was: "I don't need that, you can keep it."

He never asked about my firearm or anything else related to my carrying. He asked if I was sure I didn't need medical attention and if he needed to call a wrecker for me. He also asked if I needed a ride to work or somewhere else. My carrying was a literal "NON-event".

I interact with county LEO's on a regular basis. Many of them are my friends. I know some local cops; a couple of state troopers and some DNR officers. ALL of them are 2nd Am supporters and fully support conceal carry. (Some don't like OC.) The bottom line for them when they make a "Stop" is don't be an ^-hole and things with be painless & uneventful. But, be a smart^$$ and you may find trouble.


-

 

[BluesStringer]

I interact with county LEO's on a regular basis. Many of them are my friends. I know some local cops; a couple of state troopers and some DNR officers. ALL of them are 2nd Am supporters and fully support conceal carry. (Some don't like OC.) The bottom line for them when they make a "Stop" is don't be an ^-hole and things with be painless & uneventful. But, be a smart^$$ and you may find trouble.

Two questions:

Is SC a must-notify state?

Is there a law against being a smart ass that would authorize any more "trouble" than one would be in over whatever (alleged) infraction caused the original stop?

First question is a minor point whether the answer is yes or no, but the second question is intentionally meant to highlight that your "friends" most likely consider themselves above the law, or authorized to make up law on the spot according to some perceived attitude of their victims.

Sounds like you need a new, higher, more rights-orientated class of friends.

Blues

 

[DavidWhite]

Link Removed

Just sayin..... Ya know?

 

[tcox4freedom]

Two questions:

Is SC a must-notify state?

Is there a law against being a smart ass that would authorize any more "trouble" than one would be in over whatever (alleged) infraction caused the original stop?

First question is a minor point whether the answer is yes or no, but the second question is intentionally meant to highlight that your "friends" most likely consider themselves above the law, or authorized to make up law on the spot according to some perceived attitude of their victims.

Sounds like you need a new, higher, more rights-orientated class of friends.

Blues

Yes, you must notify "when officially asked for your id." You don't need to notify when you are in casual conversation.

ALL my friends are Constitutional Conservatives (even my LEO friends). I do know some libs. But, I don't consider them friends.

Being an a-hole doesn't necessarily make one a civil rights proponent. You know the type of people that just look for opportunity to confront LEO's and "educate" them on the Constitution. (Most don't know what they are talking about and it's just makes them come across as an a-hole.) In an official LEO encounter it will also draw a LOT of suspicion on you. We are a nation of laws like it or not. LEO's are charged with upholding those laws and enforcing others to do so as well. It is the a-hole that hates the law & the people charged to enforce it that think they are "above the law". (Officers for the most part are just doing a job.)

I'm sorry that you have such a bad taste in your mouth when it comes to "all" law enforcement officers. I had some bad experiences when I was younger myself. But, after I got involved in LE, I gained a better understanding on just how thankless the job really is. I could never be an LEO now because of my experience. Even back in the 80's politicians would hang you out to dry or throw you under the bus. (I spent six years with a contract on my life and had to move my family three times because of "politics" in our court system.)

I really wish you could come spend some time with our officers here. It's really not good for your spirit man to walk around with such hate & bitterness in your heart toward a whole segment of our population. Just like any other group of people, most are decent. But, it's the bad ones that get the press. You just need a proper prospective. (Different from your bad life experiences.)

I have a great deal of respect for my LEO friends who ALWAYS conduct themselves with honor as Christian Officers; despite having to deal with all the a-holes that hate them & want to see them dead.


-

 

[BFloyd]

From post #49:



Notice what happens here. Finding out that the subject stopped has been through a background check in addition to having no outstanding warrants turns Mr. "Rational" cop into Mr. "Paranoid" cop. I don't cater to paranoid people - I protect myself from them. Here's the kicker - once the officer finds out from the state that I possess a VALID license/permit to carry a gun, unless there is a specific law that allows the officer to disarm me, it is against the Supreme Court ruling in Terry v. Ohio and the 4th Amendment for the police officer to seize my gun. Just because I show him a piece of paper or a card does mean that it is valid. But when they receive information from the state - that means it is valid.

This is from the Terry ruling:


Mr. "paranoid" cop - his own words - admits that to a "rational" cop finding out information that the subject has passed a background check and possesses a valid license/permit should dispel reasonable fear for his own or others' safety - which removes his "entitlement" to search and seize weapons. And that is why I won't disclose anything - if the cop isn't concerned enough to ask about it up front - it is his problem if he becomes concerned when he gets further proof that I am a normally law abiding citizen - and if he wants to act on his paranoia after that, we can further discuss his paranoia issues in front of a judge.

I strongly agree with almost all of what you say, but respectfully differ about your conclusion to not cater to paranoid minds for reasons explained later.

Reinforcing most (all?) of your analysis are two additional points.

First, the odds of a CCP (CCW) holder committing a serious gun crime are lower than an officer committing a serious gun crime, if I remember correctly. Pretty sure that’s right, but anyone have data about that?

Second, and this applies in my particular case, I’m almost a senior citizen and have no criminal record. (I’m not counting when I was 11 years old and my friend and I were pulled in by the AF police for target shooting toy soldiers with our BB guns in his back yard – wasn’t a crime, just a rule violation and cops talked to parents about BB gun- related rules.) I’ve been driving for decades with a minor traffic ticket about once every ten years. I think most cops would realize that someone who reaches my age with no criminal record is incredibly unlikely to start.

The Park Ranger in the stop described in my first post was very professional and polite, one of the nicest officers who I’ve dealt with. My wife commented later that the officer seemed like an especially serious young man.

After reading the Roanoke Officer Paranoid piece, I realize that the Ranger was being especially cautious. I should say that I live in Virginia and the federal park was in VA as well. The Ranger followed me for a mile or so before pulling me over. I knew he was trailing me so I was especially careful not to speed. I think that the Ranger ran my plates on the VCIN (database including CCP as mentioned by Officer Paranoid) before he came up. Hence, he knew that I had a CCP and he initially asked about weapons on me or in the vehicle.
Ranger stood about two feet behind the back edge of my driver side door during the initial interaction. Standing back like that is a defensive measure often employed if an officer is concerned about his safety. When he came back with my license and registration, the Ranger stood outside the passenger side door so my wife was in between us. Maybe he was being Ranger Paranoid or maybe he just wanted to be farther from passing traffic, but he treated me well so I don’t have a complaint.

If I treat people nicely and with respect, they will usually treat me well also. My experience with police officers is similar. If I am respectful and polite to them, they usually are nice to me as well.

There are exceptions, “bullies with a badge,” but those have been few in number in my experience. Others may have very different experiences, maybe even with almost every officer being a “bully with a badge.” Others’ experiences may greatly depend on the training and attitudes of whatever police forces they interact with.

Your analysis is spot on and I really hope, if it comes in front of a judge, that you prevail in court.

I also hope that Officer Paranoid doesn’t shoot you before you get to court, either accidentally or purposely due to the Officer misinterpreting some small movement from you. So, while I think your analysis is basically 100 percent correct, I’ll admit that I’m not as brave as you. So I wouldn’t be comfortable in handling the interaction as you describe.
I think that, if an officer in a routine traffic stop or similar interaction realizes that you have a concealed handgun before you have revealed it to him (I’m assuming you’re in a state with no duty to tell), especially if he doesn’t know yet from running your plate that you have a CCP, he will probably point his gun at you and do a felony disarming or maybe make you produce your CCP slowly (no sudden hand movements) with his gun pointed at you.

Consider that in most states carrying a concealed weapon is a felony unless you have a CCP. Officers are trained to spot concealed handguns. If he spots it on you before he knows that have a CCP, he may think that you’re a felon. Thus, he may do a felony disarming or make you produce your CCP at the point of a gun. I don’t want this done to me, even if I can sue later.

If an officer is poorly-trained, a nervous rookie or a really bad cop (it happens), he may point a gun at a CCP holder who has not mentioned his CCP when not carrying.

Officers do have good reasons to be nervous, especially in light of the use-of-force controversies recently. The recent controversial police uses of force include both justified uses of force and improper, illegal uses of force, but the situation has been distorted to generate a campaign of hatred against all police. While some police officers have improperly used deadly force, others have been assassinated in New York City, among other places, just because they are cops.

Cops saved me from mob violence about 11 years ago and I don’t think it undermines my rights to be courteous and respectful to police officers. Easing the anxiety or paranoia of officers by reasonable steps is in my own self-interest. It’s incredibly counterproductive to be antagonistic to officers. If an officer mistreats me, I will file a complaint with his superior, get the Second Amendment Foundation or similar group to represent me and sue, or sue using my personal attorney (he used to be a police officer).

---------------------------------------------------------------
Ignoring juvenile attacks and remarks on the internet for over two decades.

It's nice to be important, but it's more important to be nice. - John Cassis on manners

 

[BluesStringer]

Yes, you must notify "when officially asked for your id." You don't need to notify when you are in casual conversation.

ALL my friends are Constitutional Conservatives (even my LEO friends). I do know some libs. But, I don't consider them friends.

Being an a-hole doesn't necessarily make one a civil rights proponent. You know the type of people that just look for opportunity to confront LEO's and "educate" them on the Constitution. (Most don't know what they are talking about and it's just makes them come across as an a-hole.) In an official LEO encounter it will also draw a LOT of suspicion on you. We are a nation of laws like it or not. LEO's are charged with upholding those laws and enforcing others to do so as well. It is the a-hole that hates the law & the people charged to enforce it that think they are "above the law". (Officers for the most part are just doing a job.)

I'm sorry that you have such a bad taste in your mouth when it comes to "all" law enforcement officers. I had some bad experiences when I was younger myself. But, after I got involved in LE, I gained a better understanding on just how thankless the job really is. I could never be an LEO now because of my experience. Even back in the 80's politicians would hang you out to dry or throw you under the bus. (I spent six years with a contract on my life and had to move my family three times because of "politics" in our court system.)

I really wish you could come spend some time with our officers here. It's really not good for your spirit man to walk around with such hate & bitterness in your heart toward a whole segment of our population. Just like any other group of people, most are decent. But, it's the bad ones that get the press. You just need a proper prospective. (Different from your bad life experiences.)

I have a great deal of respect for my LEO friends who ALWAYS conduct themselves with honor as Christian Officers; despite having to deal with all the a-holes that hate them & want to see them dead.


-

I am flabbergasted by your response here, tcox. Perhaps you will recall that even knowing of your past law enforcement background, as well as your current stated support for LE, I offered you a place to stay for as long as you wanted it. I called you "Brother" in that post, and meant it. If I truly "hated" anybody with your work history, would I have logically made such an offer or such a reference? Cool your jets there. Both your evaluation of my motivations for posting as I did previously, and your knee-jerk slobbering over cops whom you yourself said would cause more trouble for someone with a bad attitude than whatever the original stop would've legally authorized being imposed upon them, are wrong and misplaced.

I asked you a simple question - Is there a law against being a smart ass that would authorize any more "trouble" than one would be in over whatever (alleged) infraction caused the original stop - and admitted that the question itself should highlight the fact that if there wasn't such a law in place, then the cops you're doubling-down in slobbering all over are lawbreakers and violators of people's rights. Instead of heaping all kinds of conjecture about some imaginary bad experiences in my life, or the supposed hate in my heart, how about just acknowledging that cops aren't supposed to treat people different just because one licks their boots and the other says hey man, I've got rights? It was you who said they're in more trouble than if they just sat there and took it, even if they were actually having their rights violated. I didn't conjure that up, you said it, now answer for it. You can't logically sit there now and claim that the same cops you described as being lawbreakers and rights violators are somehow also "Constitutional Conservatives," because it is the Constitution itself that mandates all people must be treated equally under the law. Show me where "attitude" or being a rectal orifice is covered within the Constitution as authorizing more "trouble" than the detainee would be in for over the original rationale for the stop, and I'll retract what I'm saying/suggesting/implying here. But don't get your knickers all in a twist just because I took note of the inconsistency between what you first said about your cop friends and what the law supports, because the law decidedly doesn't support what you first said about them.

Truth hurts sometimes, but there it is.

Blues

 

[DavidWhite]

I live in a state that doesn't require a permission slip to conceal or open carry a gun.

How would you react then?

... And, no.. There is no registration of firearms either so how would a cop know if I am armed or not?

Would you just "tell him/her" that your packin heat?
Or is it not even the cops damn business?

 

[Axeanda45]

hey tcox4freedom, Do ANY of your "law enforcement buddies" that YOU SAY are so pro-rights and pro-constitutional ever enforce any "laws" that have anything to do with firearms? If so, then they are 100% NOT pro-rights or pro-constitutional....... they are 100% non thinking rules followers who INFRINGE on a RIGHT that specifically says that the Govt CANNOT INFRINGE ON......