Single Stack vs Double Stack for CCW

[Bikenut]

How much ammo will a person need in a gunfight? Who knows? One thing for sure is no one wants to not have enough and end up needing one more round.

By the same token no one wants to wish they brought a back up gun in the middle of a gunfight either.

Ok... double stack or single stack. Whatever fits your hand and fits your carry style and that you are COM accurate with while moving.

 

[bonephish]

Your two posts seem to contradict each other. You are free to enlighten me with logical arguments.

No disrespect of you whatsoever.

Because I'm 71 and not in perfect physical condition, I am not able to take an offensive position in a situation where there's a lunatic or team of shooters in order to protect others. I don't want to get into a gunfight. I'll take a defensive position and get out of his line of fire, waiting for the right timing before I act. I had my hero time back in the mid-60's when we were looking for the enemy and firefights were common.

 

[bofh]

No disrespect of you whatsoever.

Because I'm 71 and not in perfect physical condition, I am not able to take an offensive position in a situation where there's a lunatic or team of shooters in order to protect others. I don't want to get into a gunfight. I'll take a defensive position and get out of his line of fire, waiting for the right timing before I act. I had my hero time back in the mid-60's when we were looking for the enemy and firefights were common.

You apparently do aspire to be a hero. There is nothing wrong with choosing the right tactics according to your skills and gear. Your original post just had the wrong wording, communicating that you do not have the right mindset (e.g., let's wait until the LEOs come and solve my problem). Watch the video from my original reply to you:

Your original post and the post above also communicate a general misunderstanding of defensive shooting situations you may encounter. The gunfight chooses you and not the other way around. The concept of taking an offensive position doesn't exist in a defensive shooting situation, because you are acting in self defense or in the defense of others that are in immediate danger. I have one more video related to that, which I will post in a follow-up. All the points in my original reply to you are in exactly this context:

• LEOs usually show up after a situation is over. By then, you or someone else may be dead because you didn't wanted to be a hero. Can you live with that? I know I can't.
• If there is no need to engage or if the risks outweigh the benefits, then don't. Sometimes doing nothing is better than doing something. However, this is situation dependent.
• Never confront anyone looking for a fight, ever. By definition, there is no need to engage. If that person becomes an actual threat, then the situation changed.
• Most gunfights happen up close, except when they don't. Counting on your opponent being close is setting yourself up for failure. What are you going to do if an active shooter shows up at a movie theater or church?

Going back on topic, you have now three carry guns. An anemic single-stack .32 ACP mouse gun that I would not consider to be a self defense tool, a more potent single-stack 9mm pocket gun that I would consider as a backup gun, and the M&P 9C compact that I consider to be the right tool for the task.

Now, why would you carry the M&P 9C compact only in downtown New Orleans? The concept of changing carry guns based on a perceived thread profile escapes me. Just because you are less likely to defend your life with a firearm does not mean that it is OK to change the right tool for the task. While the probability of something happening to you is less, when it happens, the impact is the same and you need the same tool.

 

[bofh]

This follow-up post is about waiting for LEOs to show up or for others to step up: James Yeager | Active Shooter - Part 11 - SHAME ON YOU!!!!

 

[Eidolon]

 

[bonephish]

Going back on topic, you have now three carry guns. An anemic single-stack .32 ACP mouse gun that I would not consider to be a self defense tool, a more potent single-stack 9mm pocket gun that I would consider as a backup gun, and the M&P 9C compact that I consider to be the right tool for the task.

Now, why would you carry the M&P 9C compact only in downtown New Orleans? The concept of changing carry guns based on a perceived thread profile escapes me. Just because you are less likely to defend your life with a firearm does not mean that it is OK to change the right tool for the task. While the probability of something happening to you is less, when it happens, the impact is the same and you need the same tool.

I have 8 carry guns and pocket mouse guns, feel comfortable carrying a single-stack 9mm with JHP's or .380 with +p's and a .32 with JHP's in my pocket, or maybe my mini .22 magnum revolver. I just added the M&P 9C because I wanted one double-stack 9mm compact in my collection. Just sayin that when going downtown NOLA it's more comforting to have 5-6 more rounds on board since it's one of the more dangerous cities in the US.

.32 ACP JHP's (Gold Dots, Hydrashocks, etc.) are lethal in a pocket gun but seldom is the only gun I carry. We kill wild hogs in the swamp with a .22 magnum.

I don't have any carry guns in calibers larger than 9mm but might add a .45 compact one of these days.

 

[bofh]

I was about to bring up TheYankeeMarshal in the conversation with BluesStringer, as I do follow his channel and find him quite entertaining. His opinions, in many aspects, are directly opposed to many of James Yeager's opinions. They both come from different perspectives of life and different levels of expertise.

Watching the entire video, you realize that he is contradicting himself, starting with accusing people that disagree with him to be Rambos, to painting a terrorist attack as a Kobayashi Maru (unwinnable) scenario, to giving some sound advice on fighting back, to "don't limit your options by not being able to fight back". As for the argument of attackers being highly trained, so far that hasn't been the case. You should, however, always assume that they are.

In this video, he prefers a 1,6-pound 6-shot .357 Magnum Chiappa Rhino over a 1.9-pound 16-shot 9mm Glock 19. Why, I don't know, because he doesn't say in this video. His original argument for the Chiappa Rhino was that .357 Magnum is more powerful and that he expects engagements with low round counts.

In the meantime, he had a hangfire with a different .357 Magnum revolver and ruptured his ear drum due to his unsafe range procedures. As a result, he changed to a Chiappa Rhino in .40 S&W and a Ruger LCR in 9mm. That change in carry guns just happened in the past two months. In 2013, he changed from a Glock 30 to a Sig Sauer M11-A1. Shortly thereafter, he changed to a Beretta PX4. About a year later, he switched to a Chiappa Rhino in .357 Magnum.

PS: I fixed the link to the video in the quote.

 

[bofh]

I have 8 carry guns and pocket mouse guns, feel comfortable carrying a single-stack 9mm with JHP's or .380 with +p's and a .32 with JHP's in my pocket, or maybe my mini .22 magnum revolver. I just added the M&P 9C because I wanted one double-stack 9mm compact in my collection. Just sayin that when going downtown NOLA it's more comforting to have 5-6 more rounds on board since it's one of the more dangerous cities in the US.

.32 ACP JHP's (Gold Dots, Hydrashocks, etc.) are lethal in a pocket gun but seldom is the only gun I carry. We kill wild hogs in the swamp with a .22 magnum.

I don't have any carry guns in calibers larger than 9mm but might add a .45 compact one of these days.

I have been to downtown NOLA and other parts of the city multiple times and I know that they can be quite dangerous. That still doesn't mean I need more rounds in dangerous parts of the town than I need in better parts of the town. I simply do not subscribe to the concept of assuming that I won't face the same kind of danger in a better part of a town. The probability is lower, but not zero. The effect is the same. It doesn't matter if I am getting carjacked by 3 guys in a bad or good part of town. I am getting carjacked by 3 guys!

All guns are lethal, but do they incapacitate??? This is the classic self defense handgun caliber debate, for which there is ample literature and threads in this forum. In short, you are not trying to kill your attacker, you are trying to stop him from attacking you. In some cases, this requires to quickly incapacitate the attacker. Handguns, in general, have poor incapacitation capability. Small caliber handguns are the worst choice one can make for self defensive purposes, as they simply lack in incapacitation capability. As I said, there is ample literature on this, such as Best Choices for Self Defense Ammo. Note that the pistol caliber section in this reference starts with .380 ACP and it is not a recommended caliber.

 

[bonephish]

My Sig 232 is loaded with this. My .380 mouse guns are loaded with Hornaday 90 gr. FTX.

Liberty Civil Defense ammunition is a high velocity, extremely accurate load designed for self-defense. The 50 Grain Lead-Free Fragmenting Hollow Point bullet travels at 1500 feet per second, resulting in 12 inches of ballistic gel penetration and a permanent wound cavity greater than 2.5 inches in diameter. This light bullet, high velocity round yields 16% less felt recoil and has an effective range of 25 meters. This ammunition is new production, non-corrosive, and requires no weapons modifications.

Technical Information

Caliber: 380 ACP
Bullet Weight: 50 Grains
Bullet Style: Fragmenting Hollow Point Lead-Free
Case Type: Nickel Plated Brass
Ballistics Information:

Muzzle Velocity: 1500 fps
Muzzle Energy: 250 ft. lbs.

 

[bofh]

My Sig 232 is loaded with this. My .380 mouse guns are loaded with Hornaday 90 gr. FTX.

Liberty Civil Defense ammunition is a high velocity, extremely accurate load designed for self-defense. The 50 Grain Lead-Free Fragmenting Hollow Point bullet travels at 1500 feet per second, resulting in 12 inches of ballistic gel penetration and a permanent wound cavity greater than 2.5 inches in diameter. This light bullet, high velocity round yields 16% less felt recoil and has an effective range of 25 meters. This ammunition is new production, non-corrosive, and requires no weapons modifications.

Technical Information

Caliber: 380 ACP
Bullet Weight: 50 Grains
Bullet Style: Fragmenting Hollow Point Lead-Free
Case Type: Nickel Plated Brass
Ballistics Information:

Muzzle Velocity: 1500 fps
Muzzle Energy: 250 ft. lbs.

Just a few points on this.

I have carried a .380 ACP mouse gun before, but not anymore. The effective range of Liberty Civil Defense seems to be rather low, but can you even shoot accurately at anything beyond 7 yards with that gun in a self defense situation? The effective range of the gun is the problem. I am not talking about target shooting. I am talking about self defensive shooting at a moving target under stress, potentially while you move.

I personally do not like fragmenting handgun rounds as those fragments don't penetrate deep enough. Liberty Civil Defense and other fragmenting handgun rounds essentially trade off performance for visual effects. Yes, it looks cool, but the deadly part is the base that penetrates deep, and that is small and lightweight. If it hits bone, I doubt it will continue to penetrate. As mentioned in Link Removed, .380 ACP ammo tends to be underperforming and performing inconsistently.

Back on topic about single-stack vs. double-stack handguns, i.e., low vs. large capacity, most underestimate or misunderstand self defensive situations. You are very likely to just start dumping rounds into the attacker until he/she appears to fall down or run away. By the time that happens, your gun may run dry. With anything low capacity, you should train the Mozambique drill. A guy showed up at the range last week with his .45 ACP 1911. He didn't practice his draw at all. The first shots he fired at a steel target, he emptied the magazine. Only one hit out of 8 rounds. That's exactly how I expect this guy to perform in a self defensive situation, running dry with one positive hit.

 

[BluesStringer]

I was about to bring up TheYankeeMarshal in the conversation with BluesStringer, as I do follow his channel and find him quite entertaining. His opinions, in many aspects, are directly opposed to many of James Yeager's opinions. They both come from different perspectives of life and different levels of expertise.

Just for future reference, there's never any need to bring up TheYankeeMarshal with me. I have tried to watch/listen to his videos, and can honestly say that the one you just fixed for Eidolon is the first one I recall ever having suffered all the way through. I don't find him at all entertaining, and really, the reason I take into consideration any YouTube gun-guys (or in one case, gun-girls) has absolutely nothing to do with expecting to be entertained.

In the above video, I heard the Marshal say one thing that kinda blew my mind. At 8:05 he said, "You have to be a Rommel, not a Rambo." He followed up with some analogy that Rommel was a great strategist, but never said what his perception of being a Rambo was. Well, here's what I heard, Yank, "You have to be a Nazi, not a quiet guy who never did anything wrong but nonetheless got abused and brutalized by the local Sheriff, which kicked the quiet guy's training into gear in self-defense mode that continued throughout the rest of that oft-misunderstood story line.

I'll take a well-trained, but nonetheless quiet, unassuming transient just lookin' to buy some food in town before peacefully going on his way, over any Nazi, no matter how good his strategies or tactics are!

I agree with the rest of your post, bofh. Just had to get that off my chest.

Blues

 

[bofh]

+1,000,000

 

[Blueshell]

I will soon be taking my CCW class in hopes of obtaining my permit here in Louisiana. I currently own a SD40ve and I want to buy a more compact handgun in 9mm for concealed carry. Most everyone I talk to in person about it says that single stacks are where the comfort is at. I have heard some people say that the right holster and some doubles stacks can still be comfortable. I want to hear from some people on why they choose their handgun size and for what reason.

It's all preference.

 

[Eidolon]

"You have to be a Nazi, not a quiet guy who never did anything wrong but nonetheless got abused and brutalized by the local Sheriff, which kicked the quiet guy's training into gear in self-defense mode that continued throughout the rest of that oft-misunderstood story line.

I'll take a well-trained, but nonetheless quiet, unassuming transient just lookin' to buy some food in town before peacefully going on his way, over any Nazi, no matter how good his strategies or tactics are!

You need to read the book (original source material) which makes it clear that Rambo deliberately antagonized Teasle with the specific intention of instigating a confrontation.

You also may wish to bone up on your history, Rommel was never a member of the NSDAP. He was at worst a German nationalist who got caught in Hitler's insanity

 

[Blueshell]

You need to read the book (original source material) which makes it clear that Rambo deliberately antagonized Teasle with the specific intention of instigating a confrontation.

You also may wish to bone up on your history, Rommel was never a member of the NSDAP. He was at worst a German nationalist who got caught in Hitler's insanity

...the **** does Rambo have to do with single vs double stack handguns?

 

[BluesStringer]

You need to read the book (original source material) which makes it clear that Rambo deliberately antagonized Teasle with the specific intention of instigating a confrontation.

HA! Even if that's true, which I do not concede, do you believe ol' YankeeMarshal knew that and was referring to the book character rather than the movie character?

 

[Blueshell]

HA! Even if that's true, which I do not concede, do you believe ol' YankeeMarshal knew that and was referring to the book character rather than the movie character?

The **** does that have to do with single/double stack magazines?

 

[Eidolon]

I was about to bring up TheYankeeMarshal in the conversation with BluesStringer, as I do follow his channel and find him quite entertaining. His opinions, in many aspects, are directly opposed to many of James Yeager's opinions. They both come from different perspectives of life and different levels of expertise.

Watching the entire video, you realize that he is contradicting himself, starting with accusing people that disagree with him to be Rambos, to painting a terrorist attack as a Kobayashi Maru (unwinnable) scenario, to giving some sound advice on fighting back, to "don't limit your options by not being able to fight back". As for the argument of attackers being highly trained, so far that hasn't been the case. You should, however, always assume that they are.

In this video, he prefers a 1,6-pound 6-shot .357 Magnum Chiappa Rhino over a 1.9-pound 16-shot 9mm Glock 19. Why, I don't know, because he doesn't say in this video. His original argument for the Chiappa Rhino was that .357 Magnum is more powerful and that he expects engagements with low round counts.

In the meantime, he had a hangfire with a different .357 Magnum revolver and ruptured his ear drum due to his unsafe range procedures. As a result, he changed to a Chiappa Rhino in .40 S&W and a Ruger LCR in 9mm. That change in carry guns just happened in the past two months. In 2013, he changed from a Glock 30 to a Sig Sauer M11-A1. Shortly thereafter, he changed to a Beretta PX4. About a year later, he switched to a Chiappa Rhino in .357 Magnum.

PS: I fixed the link to the video in the quote.

Thanks for fixing the link.

I watch YM more for comedy relief than anything else but I do agree with one thing in the video (really 2 because you ain't even my real dad) the best way to counter a terrorist attack is to have everyone in the building armed instead of 1 or even 2 John McClains

 

[Eidolon]

HA! Even if that's true, which I do not concede, do you believe ol' YankeeMarshal knew that and was referring to the book character rather than the movie character?

I'm not addressing what YM said. I'm addressing what you said.

Read the book, it's available on EBay for around 5 bucks. Morell has Rambo reflecting in the mineshaft that he wanted another taste of combat and that he wanted to show Teasle (a Chosin Reservoir survivor) that he was the better man and that that the Madison PD had picked the wrong guy to mess with.

That's the character David Morell created.

 

[Eidolon]

...the **** does Rambo have to do with single vs double stack handguns?

Rambo wouldn't use either he'd just fire a LAWS from inside his helicopter without suffering any damage from the backblast