Signs of the End of the Age & The Last Generation

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Perhaps Sagan's most famous dictum is that (paraphrasing) claims require evidence, and the greater the claim the greater the requirement and the greater the evidence that is required.

The existence of a creator god, all knowing and all caring, would seem to be the greatest possible claim and would therefore require the greatest possible evidence. The universe, however, is not only full of evidence that no creator god is required, benign or otherwise, but that any deity that might exist is certainly not compassionate toward his creation.
 
Perhaps Sagan's most famous dictum is that (paraphrasing) claims require evidence, and the greater the claim the greater the requirement and the greater the evidence that is required.

The existence of a creator god, all knowing and all caring, would seem to be the greatest possible claim and would therefore require the greatest possible evidence. The universe, however, is not only full of evidence that no creator god is required, benign or otherwise, but that any deity that might exist is certainly not compassionate toward his creation.

Before you go off the deep end, I'm sure we can all agree history tells us about Mr Sagan. History tells us he is in the grave. History also tells us Jesus Christ hung on a cross until dead, died for our sins, buried and rose from the dead.

History tells us these things.

Everyone has their "jump off point" when it comes to history.

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You will have yours and that is fine. You own it!

Sagan was and never will be as big as Jesus.




sinful nature is always hostile to God....
 
Before you go off the deep end, I'm sure we can all agree history tells us about Mr Sagan. History tells us he is in the grave. History also tells us Jesus Christ hung on a cross until dead, died for our sins, buried and rose from the dead.

History tells us these things.

Everyone has their "jump off point" when it comes to history.

Stones
Writings
Verbal
Scrolls
Print
Audio
Video
Smartphone

You will have yours and that is fine. You own it!

Sagan was and never will be as big as Jesus.




sinful nature is always hostile to God....

Yes, Jesus is bigger than Carl Sagan in modern culture. But history does *not* tell us that Jesus existed, only the Bible tells us that (personally I don't care one way or the other), while the world in general is comparatively full of mutually independent evidence regarding Sagan and his work. Come to think of it, Sagan's influence extends well beyond the Oort Cloud (Voyagers 1 & 2), which is something Jesus can't and never did claim. Mind, Carl Sagan is no deity in my mind, I'm well aware of his human failings and I see flaws and hubris in some of his musings and hobby horses. Even so, I am more comfortable in his camp than in any other I've tried.

For the record, the only real problems I have with religion in general are when it trespasses where it doesn't belong (as in politics or public health).
 
XD could care less about you.
You're talking out your ass again there farm boy. I really feel empathy for people that are so miserable. It's not their fault really, it is how they are programmed. Of course the only person that can free them is themselves, by questioning and thinking instead of just swallowing.
 
Ancient Evidence for Jesus

Evidence from Tacitus
Although there is overwhelming evidence that the New Testament is an accurate and trustworthy historical document, many people are still reluctant to believe what it says unless there is also some independent, non-biblical testimony that corroborates its statements. In the introduction to one of his books, F.F. Bruce tells about a Christian correspondent who was told by an agnostic friend that “apart from obscure references in Josephus and the like,” there was no historical evidence for the life of Jesus outside the Bible.{1** This, he wrote to Bruce, had caused him “great concern and some little upset in [his] spiritual life.”{2** He concludes his letter by asking, “Is such collateral proof available, and if not, are there reasons for the lack of it?”{3** The answer to this question is, “Yes, such collateral proof is available,” and we will be looking at some of it in this article.

Let’s begin our inquiry with a passage that historian Edwin Yamauchi calls “probably the most important reference to Jesus outside the New Testament.”{4** Reporting on Emperor Nero’s decision to blame the Christians for the fire that had destroyed Rome in A.D. 64, the Roman historian Tacitus wrote:


Nero fastened the guilt . . . on a class hated for their abominations, called Christians by the populace. Christus, from whom the name had its origin, suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius at the hands of . . . Pontius Pilatus, and a most mischievous superstition, thus checked for the moment, again broke out not only in Judaea, the first source of the evil, but even in Rome. . . .{5**

What all can we learn from this ancient (and rather unsympathetic) reference to Jesus and the early Christians? Notice, first, that Tacitus reports Christians derived their name from a historical person called Christus (from the Latin), or Christ. He is said to have “suffered the extreme penalty,” obviously alluding to the Roman method of execution known as crucifixion. This is said to have occurred during the reign of Tiberius and by the sentence of Pontius Pilatus. This confirms much of what the Gospels tell us about the death of Jesus.

But what are we to make of Tacitus’ rather enigmatic statement that Christ’s death briefly checked “a most mischievous superstition,” which subsequently arose not only in Judaea, but also in Rome? One historian suggests that Tacitus is here “bearing indirect . . . testimony to the conviction of the early church that the Christ who had been crucified had risen from the grave.”{6** While this interpretation is admittedly speculative, it does help explain the otherwise bizarre occurrence of a rapidly growing religion based on the worship of a man who had been crucified as a criminal.{7** How else might one explain that?

Evidence from Pliny the Younger

Another important source of evidence about Jesus and early Christianity can be found in the letters of Pliny the Younger to Emperor Trajan. Pliny was the Roman governor of Bithynia in Asia Minor. In one of his letters, dated around A.D. 112, he asks Trajan’s advice about the appropriate way to conduct legal proceedings against those accused of being Christians.{8** Pliny says that he needed to consult the emperor about this issue because a great multitude of every age, class, and sex stood accused of Christianity.{9**

At one point in his letter, Pliny relates some of the information he has learned about these Christians:


They were in the habit of meeting on a certain fixed day before it was light, when they sang in alternate verses a hymn to Christ, as to a god, and bound themselves by a solemn oath, not to any wicked deeds, but never to commit any fraud, theft or adultery, never to falsify their word, nor deny a trust when they should be called upon to deliver it up; after which it was their custom to separate, and then reassemble to partake of food–but food of an ordinary and innocent kind.{10**

This passage provides us with a number of interesting insights into the beliefs and practices of early Christians. First, we see that Christians regularly met on a certain fixed day for worship. Second, their worship was directed to Christ, demonstrating that they firmly believed in His divinity. Furthermore, one scholar interprets Pliny’s statement that hymns were sung to Christ, as to a god, as a reference to the rather distinctive fact that, “unlike other gods who were worshipped, Christ was a person who had lived on earth.”{11** If this interpretation is correct, Pliny understood that Christians were worshipping an actual historical person as God! Of course, this agrees perfectly with the New Testament doctrine that Jesus was both God and man.

Not only does Pliny’s letter help us understand what early Christians believed about Jesus’ person, it also reveals the high esteem to which they held His teachings. For instance, Pliny notes that Christians bound themselves by a solemn oath not to violate various moral standards, which find their source in the ethical teachings of Jesus. In addition, Pliny’s reference to the Christian custom of sharing a common meal likely alludes to their observance of communion and the “love feast.”{12** This interpretation helps explain the Christian claim that the meal was merely food of an ordinary and innocent kind. They were attempting to counter the charge, sometimes made by non-Christians, of practicing “ritual cannibalism.”{13** The Christians of that day humbly repudiated such slanderous attacks on Jesus’ teachings. We must sometimes do the same today.

Evidence from Josephus

Perhaps the most remarkable reference to Jesus outside the Bible can be found in the writings of Josephus, a first century Jewish historian. On two occasions, in his Jewish Antiquities, he mentions Jesus. The second, less revealing, reference describes the condemnation of one “James” by the Jewish Sanhedrin. This James, says Josephus, was “the brother of Jesus the so-called Christ.”{14** F.F. Bruce points out how this agrees with Paul’s description of James in Galatians 1:19 as “the Lord’s brother.”{15** And Edwin Yamauchi informs us that “few scholars have questioned” that Josephus actually penned this passage.{16**

As interesting as this brief reference is, there is an earlier one, which is truly astonishing. Called the “Testimonium Flavianum,” the relevant portion declares:


About this time there lived Jesus, a wise man, if indeed one ought to call him a man. For he . . . wrought surprising feats. . . . He was the Christ. When Pilate . . .condemned him to be crucified, those who had . . . come to love him did not give up their affection for him. On the third day he appeared . . . restored to life. . . . And the tribe of Christians . . . has . . . not disappeared.{17**

Did Josephus really write this? Most scholars think the core of the passage originated with Josephus, but that it was later altered by a Christian editor, possibly between the third and fourth century A.D.{18** But why do they think it was altered? Josephus was not a Christian, and it is difficult to believe that anyone but a Christian would have made some of these statements.{19**

For instance, the claim that Jesus was a wise man seems authentic, but the qualifying phrase, “if indeed one ought to call him a man,” is suspect. It implies that Jesus was more than human, and it is quite unlikely that Josephus would have said that! It is also difficult to believe he would have flatly asserted that Jesus was the Christ, especially when he later refers to Jesus as “the so-called” Christ. Finally, the claim that on the third day Jesus appeared to His disciples restored to life, inasmuch as it affirms Jesus’ resurrection, is quite unlikely to come from a non-Christian!

But even if we disregard the questionable parts of this passage, we are still left with a good deal of corroborating information about the biblical Jesus. We read that he was a wise man who performed surprising feats. And although He was crucified under Pilate, His followers continued their discipleship and became known as Christians. When we combine these statements with Josephus’ later reference to Jesus as “the so-called Christ,” a rather detailed picture emerges which harmonizes quite well with the biblical record. It increasingly appears that the “biblical Jesus” and the “historical Jesus” are one and the same!

Evidence from the Babylonian Talmud

There are only a few clear references to Jesus in the Babylonian Talmud, a collection of Jewish rabbinical writings compiled between approximately A.D. 70-500. Given this time frame, it is naturally supposed that earlier references to Jesus are more likely to be historically reliable than later ones. In the case of the Talmud, the earliest period of compilation occurred between A.D. 70-200.{20** The most significant reference to Jesus from this period states:


On the eve of the Passover Yeshu was hanged. For forty days before the execution took place, a herald . . . cried, “He is going forth to be stoned because he has practiced sorcery and enticed Israel to apostasy.”{21**

Let’s examine this passage. You may have noticed that it refers to someone named “Yeshu.” So why do we think this is Jesus? Actually, “Yeshu” (or “Yeshua”) is how Jesus’ name is pronounced in Hebrew. But what does the passage mean by saying that Jesus “was hanged”? Doesn’t the New Testament say he was crucified? Indeed it does. But the term “hanged” can function as a synonym for “crucified.” For instance, Galatians 3:13 declares that Christ was “hanged”, and Luke 23:39 applies this term to the criminals who were crucified with Jesus.{22** So the Talmud declares that Jesus was crucified on the eve of Passover. But what of the cry of the herald that Jesus was to be stoned? This may simply indicate what the Jewish leaders were planning to do.{23** If so, Roman involvement changed their plans!{24**

The passage also tells us why Jesus was crucified. It claims He practiced sorcery and enticed Israel to apostasy! Since this accusation comes from a rather hostile source, we should not be too surprised if Jesus is described somewhat differently than in the New Testament. But if we make allowances for this, what might such charges imply about Jesus?

Interestingly, both accusations have close parallels in the canonical gospels. For instance, the charge of sorcery is similar to the Pharisees’ accusation that Jesus cast out demons “by Beelzebul the ruler of the demons.”{25** But notice this: such a charge actually tends to confirm the New Testament claim that Jesus performed miraculous feats. Apparently Jesus’ miracles were too well attested to deny. The only alternative was to ascribe them to sorcery! Likewise, the charge of enticing Israel to apostasy parallels Luke’s account of the Jewish leaders who accused Jesus of misleading the nation with his teaching.{26** Such a charge tends to corroborate the New Testament record of Jesus’ powerful teaching ministry. Thus, if read carefully, this passage from the Talmud confirms much of our knowledge about Jesus from the New Testament.

Evidence from Lucian

Lucian of Samosata was a second century Greek satirist. In one of his works, he wrote of the early Christians as follows:


The Christians . . . worship a man to this day–the distinguished personage who introduced their novel rites, and was crucified on that account. . . . [It] was impressed on them by their original lawgiver that they are all brothers, from the moment that they are converted, and deny the gods of Greece, and worship the crucified sage, and live after his laws.{27**

Although Lucian is jesting here at the early Christians, he does make some significant comments about their founder. For instance, he says the Christians worshipped a man, “who introduced their novel rites.” And though this man’s followers clearly thought quite highly of Him, He so angered many of His contemporaries with His teaching that He “was crucified on that account.”

Although Lucian does not mention his name, he is clearly referring to Jesus. But what did Jesus teach to arouse such wrath? According to Lucian, he taught that all men are brothers from the moment of their conversion. That’s harmless enough. But what did this conversion involve? It involved denying the Greek gods, worshipping Jesus, and living according to His teachings. It’s not too difficult to imagine someone being killed for teaching that. Though Lucian doesn’t say so explicitly, the Christian denial of other gods combined with their worship of Jesus implies the belief that Jesus was more than human. Since they denied other gods in order to worship Him, they apparently thought Jesus a greater God than any that Greece had to offer!

Let’s summarize what we’ve learned about Jesus from this examination of ancient non-Christian sources. First, both Josephus and Lucian indicate that Jesus was regarded as wise. Second, Pliny, the Talmud, and Lucian imply He was a powerful and revered teacher. Third, both Josephus and the Talmud indicate He performed miraculous feats. Fourth, Tacitus, Josephus, the Talmud, and Lucian all mention that He was crucified. Tacitus and Josephus say this occurred under Pontius Pilate. And the Talmud declares it happened on the eve of Passover. Fifth, there are possible references to the Christian belief in Jesus’ resurrection in both Tacitus and Josephus. Sixth, Josephus records that Jesus’ followers believed He was the Christ, or Messiah. And finally, both Pliny and Lucian indicate that Christians worshipped Jesus as God!

I hope you see how this small selection of ancient non-Christian sources helps corroborate our knowledge of Jesus from the gospels. Of course, there are many ancient Christian sources of information about Jesus as well. But since the historical reliability of the canonical gospels is so well established, I invite you to read those for an authoritative “life of Jesus!”
 
All the sources you cite are heresay or irrelevant (there are plenty of primary and secondary sources attesting to the existence, deeds and divinity of Thor). As such, they wouldn't be admitted into a modern legal proceeding. If you're asking me to bet on Jesus' divinity for my eternity, the stakes are too high and your "evidence" is too slight. The question is too important to be settled so cavalierly. As I implied earlier, though, I don't particularly care whether there was a historical Jesus; the affect the Jesus stories have had on history makes his actual existence merely of academic interest.

BTW, I prefer Thomas Jefferson's version of the gospels; it's a much more powerful piece of literature. The ending particularly is somehow more emotionally satisfying.
 
Yes, Jesus is bigger than Carl Sagan in modern culture. But history does *not* tell us that Jesus existed, only the Bible tells us that (personally I don't care one way or the other), while the world in general is comparatively full of mutually independent evidence regarding Sagan and his work. Come to think of it, Sagan's influence extends well beyond the Oort Cloud (Voyagers 1 & 2), which is something Jesus can't and never did claim. Mind, Carl Sagan is no deity in my mind, I'm well aware of his human failings and I see flaws and hubris in some of his musings and hobby horses. Even so, I am more comfortable in his camp than in any other I've tried.

For the record, the only real problems I have with religion in general are when it trespasses where it doesn't belong (as in politics or public health).

Gee, if you don't care one way or the other, why bother to jump in? You are also incorrect when you say history does not tell us Jesus existed. But don't despair, you will have plenty of company in the hereafter who also didn't believe and you can have many lengthy discussions about His non-existence...........AFTER He has given you your final judgement.
 
I jump in because I want to. It's an academic question that I enjoy discussing, but it's hard to have a discussion when a correspondent's responses are mostly "Just wait, you'll see and then you'll be sorry." Surely an advocate for an all-wise deity ought to be more forthcoming.

I've already addressed the extra - biblical ancient mentions of Jesus in another post.

PS: Do you really intend to communicate such an unholy glee in anticipation of my impending eternal damnation? It sure comes across that way.
 
You are very knowledgeable on a lot of things...I respect that! Take it easy on holy and unholy it appears to be something you would not be able to speak of with authority.

sinful nature is always hostile to God....
 
??? Holy glee vs unholy glee at someone's damnation. You're right, I don't see the difference. It does bring up images of the Witchfinder General lighting the pyre, though.

So, I notice that no one is anxious to deal with my post 1301. It seems to me that the question of a creator god's very existence is so much more fundamental than nattering back and forth about where or if I will be spending eternity (which is irrelevant, in any case). It also seems to me that arguing about Jesus' divinity as the Son of God should wait until we have established at least the likelihood of a God the Father (stray, stream-of-consciousness thought: If with God all things are possible, could the Son spawn the Father? Never mind, just a mental blip). Elsewhere in this thread (?) I wrote to the effect that neither of us had verifiable evidence that a creator God does or doesn't exist, but that there was plentiful verifiable evidence that such a being is unnecessary. In return, it would seem that an argument for a creator god's existence should be supported by something other than a self-serving book whose reliability is so strongly impeached, and whose interpretation can vary so wildly.
 
So, can you explain it?

BTW I made a fairly lengthy addition to my last post while you were replying. Sorry for the inconvenience.
 
I jump in because I want to. It's an academic question that I enjoy discussing, but it's hard to have a discussion when a correspondent's responses are mostly "Just wait, you'll see and then you'll be sorry." Surely an advocate for an all-wise deity ought to be more forthcoming.

I've already addressed the extra - biblical ancient mentions of Jesus in another post.

PS: Do you really intend to communicate such an unholy glee in anticipation of my impending eternal damnation? It sure comes across that way.

Sorry old son, no one on here has an unholy glee at the thought of eternal punishment. On the contrary, we try to spread the Word of God so people WILL NOT have to suffer those consequences and are met with opposition in most cases by those who either have no religion, see their "religion" as someone other than God, or are just being antagonistic. We do believe in our God and, contrary to what you may think, those more upset are those who deny God. If they don't believe in Him, why worry about our belief? I can accept your unbelief for whatever reason you give but I don't have to agree with it and, can refrain from comment as long as yours and others comments are not inflammatory. Just sayin,........
 
Sorry old son, no one on here has an unholy glee at the thought of eternal punishment. On the contrary, we try to spread the Word of God so people WILL NOT have to suffer those consequences and are met with opposition in most cases by those who either have no religion, see their "religion" as someone other than God, or are just being antagonistic. We do believe in our God and, contrary to what you may think, those more upset are those who deny God. If they don't believe in Him, why worry about our belief? I can accept your unbelief for whatever reason you give but I don't have to agree with it and, can refrain from comment as long as yours and others comments are not inflammatory. Just sayin,........
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All the sources you cite are heresay or irrelevant (there are plenty of primary and secondary sources attesting to the existence, deeds and divinity of Thor). As such, they wouldn't be admitted into a modern legal proceeding. If you're asking me to bet on Jesus' divinity for my eternity, the stakes are too high and your "evidence" is too slight. The question is too important to be settled so cavalierly. As I implied earlier, though, I don't particularly care whether there was a historical Jesus; the affect the Jesus stories have had on history makes his actual existence merely of academic interest.

BTW, I prefer Thomas Jefferson's version of the gospels; it's a much more powerful piece of literature. The ending particularly is somehow more emotionally satisfying.

Excuse me, but IN WHOSE OPINION are those sources "heresay or irrelevant"? You're posting as someone with predetermined responses. I'll bet you looked at that for thirty seconds before you posted this -- in other words, just like for the OJ Simpson jury and the majority of blacks, OJ Simpson would have been found not guilty even if they had a video of the murder, YOU already know what you're going to say and give anyone with opposing views nothing but clever retorts.

Since you believe in the high stakes of your eternity, unless that was a throwaway line, what do YOU think will get you eternal life? Why is simply believing in something such high stakes?
 
Oh, now THAT'S a convincing answer. I guess we'd better all give up on Christianity because we're all batshit crazy. Whatever. Let's see some evidence of original thinking here, shall we, XD40?

That was directed at Ringo and his incessant parroting of every end-of-times loon he can find on the internet.

Considering XD's "incessant parroting" of everyone of my posts that he hates and fears, and yet he cannot refrain from reading, is without question the epitome of hypocrisy and his pathetic existence. As we can see, the fundamental ethos of atheism is intolerance, fear of an afterlife, and pure hypocrisy. SO,XD.....

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First, I don't read your (well not actually yours, but what you copy/pasted) nonsense, I just scroll on by. Got a cramp in my finger scrolling past a few of the longer ones.

Wow, the man who accuses me of parroting finally unearthed his keyboard and typed something instead of merely copy/paste from some loony blogger's site. First time in what 50, 60, or more of his last posts.
 
First, I don't read your (well not actually yours, but what you copy/pasted) nonsense, I just scroll on by. Got a cramp in my finger scrolling past a few of the longer ones.

Wow, the man who accuses me of parroting finally unearthed his keyboard and typed something instead of merely copy/paste from some loony blogger's site. First time in what 50, 60, or more of his last posts.

And I was serious about the bat **** crazy part.
 
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