Sheriff investigating death of Missouri man in gun class

[fied1k]

Sheriff investigating death of Missouri man in gun class

SPRINGFIELD | Questions are being raised after a man died in a class that is required to obtain a concealed weapons permit in Missouri.

Sixty-three-year-old Glenn Seymour accidentally shot himself in the chest earlier this month in Douglas County while trying a new technique with a weapon he wasn’t familiar with using.

Douglas County Sheriff Chris Degase is looking into whether what he was learning was appropriate for a class that often includes people with little to no training.

The Springfield News-Leader reported that Seymour was right-handed, but was practicing drawing a semiautomatic 9 mm handgun with his left hand, taking the safety off and shooting.

That skill is not required to get a concealed weapons permit in Missouri.

Instructor Paul Richard Williams called Seymour’s death a “tragic accident.”

 

[jibbster]

ooooops:fie:

 

[-06]

There were absolutely no loaded firearms in the classroom part of our class. When firing only five at a time were on line. Someone's butt will get chewed over this one. Weak side firing practice has no place in a classroom.

 

[fied1k]

Agreed. Drawing from a holster has no place in class or qualification. Most ranges don't even allow it. How do you get shot in the chest doing that? Ricochet? On out qualification we didn't even use our own guns and we had 1 instructor per 2 people shooting.

 

[NRA UR2]

good old boys

Sounds like a bunch of "good old boys" having a friemdly CCW class with a numbnuts instructor. That idiot should be indicted for manslaughter or worse.:fie::hang3:

 

[twogunwilly]

Sounds like a bunch of "good old boys" having a friemdly CCW class with a numbnuts instructor. That idiot should be indicted for manslaughter or worse.:fie::hang3:

Come on..... The guy shot himself.

 

[santa]

In my opinion the instructor should have been more 'on top of it'. When I had my training loaded guns were absolutely forbidden except on the range and even then only when the instructor told you to load were you allowed to. This was a tragiic incident that could have easily been prevented. To me the term accident implies that there was nothing that could have prevented what happened. In this case 'a poor choice' might be a better term because it could have been prevented. Just my honest opinion.

 

[FN1910]

It said during the CWP class but in SC part of the class is range firing so was he in the classroom or at the range. Does the CWP class in MO include range fire or is it just classroom? Either way it was dumb to be trying something like that with live ammo and the instructor should have known better but to blame the instructor for the stupidity of a 63 year old man just shows what has happened to the US where we always want to blame someone else for our stupidity. Just like the little boy in NH(?) that was killed while firing an automatic rifle with his father helping him. Lock the promoter up and throw away the key.

 

[Iteach4U]

I just don't understand the foolishness of some LEOs and their knee-jerk reactions. There is absolutely nothing to investigate. The individual failed to follow basic safety protocols and pointed a firearm at himself which resulted in his death.

This is starting to look no different than if someone takes up a new workout technique they've found somewhere and get hurt using it. They did so knowing the risks and did so knowing that it may/is an advanced technique they may need more experience with prior to using it. Self-responsibility folks, that's where this should be sitting right now.

Fact is, the death is tragic. What we all learn or reinforce from this incident is what is vital at this point.

Treat EVERY firearm as if it were loaded, even if it's a non-lethal type.
Muzzle pointed down range at ALL times.
Unloaded until ready for use.
Finger out of the trigger until ready to shoot.

 

[Iteach4U]

There were absolutely no loaded firearms in the classroom part of our class. When firing only five at a time were on line. Someone's butt will get chewed over this one. Weak side firing practice has no place in a classroom.

Really? The military says one thing: Fight like you train.
And you will fight exactly how you've trained because that's what your brain has been conditioned to do.

Guess what that means. If you're not learning or self-teaching how to properly shoot weak hand, you'll not have the skill set to respond weak hand should you need it in a survival (life threatening) scenario. You'd then stand a very high potential to be a victim because a failure to train on the skill set took you out of the fight.

But, like I've said below, if this winds up being a loaded firearm in the classroom then there's a HUGE issue. But, as I say below there's nothing indicating this was a classroom incident or a non-range related incident.


Santa,

Nothing in the media thus far indicates that this was not a range activity related incident. If it's directly related to the classroom and not the range, then there's a HUGE issue and my previous post on the matter will be redacted. If it's range related then the instructor shouldn't be held at fault. Being more "on top of it" is a farce. Why? Because an instructor makes corrections for issues that are already in progress, which means they are reactive more than proactive. It's up to the individual to follow safety protocols like muzzles down range and believe me, an incident like this can transpire in a split-second. The example of just how fast would be the murder-suicide a while back (not in Mo.) where the mother went on the range with her son (she was known to have mental problems) and shot him then herself. The video showed this occurred in 3-4 seconds roughly. So you're statement would indicate that the range staff should have been "more on top of it", which really isn't the issue.

Here's that video:

 

[FN1910]

Link Removed

More information on this story and looks like the Instructor was an idiot and does need to be held accountable. This is much different that what was first assumed.

This is not an exercise for people just beginning to learn how to use a handgun especially with an unfamiliar gun.

The sheriff said the accident happened while an instructor was having the man manipulate the weapon with his non-dominant hand -- in this case, his left.

 

[santa]

Those suicides were a tragedy but were planned, not an accident. I do agree that the man who died made a very poor decision that resulted in his own death and therefore is directly responsible. However we can speculate about all the contributing factors such as 'was the class too big?' or any other factor but the fact remains that the victom aparently was not familiar with that particular firearm. It is the instructors job to make sure EVERYONE knows about the gun that is being used and to enforce all the safety rules. Is the instructor to blame for this mans death? NO of course not. But having attended several safety classes I can say that some instructors are lax in observing their students and others are not. Based on what I have read about this incident and based on my knowledge of class room and range procedures it is my OPINION that the instructor could probably have paid closer attention to this individual who was having difficulty. Again Im not saying that it is the instructors fault. Most accidents or incidents are the result of several contributing factors that combine to make a tragedy like this. It does serve as a wake up call to ALL gun owners to BE CAREFUL and not have anything like this happen to you(or me).

 

[Iteach4U]

Link Removed

More information on this story and looks like the Instructor was an idiot and does need to be held accountable. This is much different that what was first assumed.

This is not an exercise for people just beginning to learn how to use a handgun especially with an unfamiliar gun.

I apologize for the reply not copying your entire post, specifically your quote as it's a focal point of this incident. The News-Leader story came out pretty quickly and had a lot more information and speculation than other reports.

I agree, if it was instructor irresponsibility then certainly hold the instructor accountable. But, we've all got to remember that safety isn't just the instructor's responsibility it's everyone's, even if you're a student.

Take note of one very important fact. Once the instructor responsibility ball gets rolling it's going to stay in motion and you can bet folks that do dumb things on ranges will also start blaming range staffers for their personal violations of safety protocols.

One thing I'm not seeing in the media is whether or not the student expressed discomfort with the technique or said anything about safety prior to the incident; something we may never know. Human nature is to follow what an authoriatative figure says to do, it was tested decades ago by Stanley Milgram.

If any of you get a chance, Tim Oliver has posted a nice video on missouricarry.com where he and his folks have recreated what they think may have happened based on what's in the media and what's been heard from law enforcement. Just watching that video you'll see a number of safety issues with the illustrated technique (not saying it's the actual technique folks). So if there are multiple students on the line there's the potential for a gross safety violation immediately.

 

[MONTANA]

Some good points. When I am on the range, I never draw with my non-dominant hand to fire live ammunition and I am an old coot who has been shooting a very long time. I will fire with my non-dominant hand but start from a low ready position on the non-dominant side of the body. I draw with my non-dominant hand only during dry-fire practice. I am hoping this will give me enough practice that I could easily perform the action if my life depended on it. I think the bottom line is that this instruction is not required to get a Concealed Carry Permit. I smell a civil action lawsuit on the way regardless of the outcome of the criminal investigation.