Religion and Self-Defense


I am really surprised there is even a dedicated section like this......seems much of this could be covered elsewhere already? Political views and religious beliefs just don't seem to be a good topic of discussion on any forum, just my simple observation though.

Perhaps I saw the topic title differently than you did, Pokey. I perceived the question to be one of whether or not self defense and religion were compatible. One often reads or hears, generally from the Liberal "news" media or members of the more Liberal mainstream Christian denominations, that armed self defense is inimical to Christ's teachings. Personally, I believe that such claims ignore clear Biblical evidence to the contrary and that we who believe our lives are gifts which should be cherished and defended should educate ourselves to fight such false claims.

The need for such education makes this a very valid topic for discussion.
 

Don't label everything the way you see it. There was no "STEERAGE" in my comment. You can tell this by the fact I quoted IdsGeek directly. so it was a comment on what he said not on what the op posted.
There will never be any separation between anything and the religiously preoccupied's beliefs. Every aspect of living consciousness is in some way relevant to the belief system and subservient to it. I don't disagree with your quote here. I am glad though that there are people of commitment out there, and I think that's the way it should be for such committed people whether or not I agree with them. It is a relief from those "moderates" with no core belief.
At least you know where they are coming from and it makes it easier to put into perspective.
Just please do not confuse my sentiments with groups of people that are committed through their words and actions to hurt, harm and eliminate us!:fie:
 
And right you are, Pokey. But you see the problem comes in when the religious whackos wear their beliefs on their sleeve, trying to inject it into every conversation, regardless of the topic. (see 6shooter, above)

This lead to such angst in this particular forum space awhile back, Luke tried to appease them by providing an aside area where the activity would hopefully proceed with minimal disruption elsewhere. At one point the true believers supposedly conducted a mass defection to another site where their bigoted and hateful discussions would be more generally accepted.

Unfortunately it seems a few of them stuck around. Oh well. :to_pick_ones_nose:

Yeah, we did.
 
The Gun vs The Church

For those who scratch their heads as to "should I carry in church"? The answer is "YES"! Have we forgotten those who have been shot and killed while attending church services. Children going to church to practice for different things. Preachers preaching and a man walks down and shoots the preacher right in the middle of services. Martin Luther King's mother was killed while in church. I am a Minister and have been since July 12, 1972 and a firearms instructor since 1975 serving the military and different federal, state agencies, NRA, 4-H club among others. I train snipers, counter-sniper, handguns, rifles, shotguns among othersDo I carry while in church? Let's just say when I leave for church my house is minus either a Sig P226 40 S&W or .357sig or a Colt Gov. Model 45acp. Where ever you go you can find the devil's agent and if he points a gun at me...RIP (I train my students to shot to STOP), double and triple taps.
 
Not trying to hijack this wonderfully enlightening thread, but would someone answer a question? Why do most States CCW laws restrict carrying in churches? It's a valid question. Does being in church provide some safe haven from a criminal trying to rob the collection plate at gun point?

I think if you research them far enough you'll find that most of those laws prohibiting guns in churches stem from the era following the War Between the States. Blacks taking their guns to church with them made it inconvenient for Klansmen and other unreconstructed die-hards to raid, rape, and pillage such gatherings. As with many of the firearms laws taken for granted today, this prohibition was more about protecting a privileged class of criminal than preventing crime.
 
Huh?

I think if you research them far enough you'll find that most of those laws prohibiting guns in churches stem from the era following the War Between the States. Blacks taking their guns to church with them made it inconvenient for Klansmen and other unreconstructed die-hards to raid, rape, and pillage such gatherings. As with many of the firearms laws taken for granted today, this prohibition was more about protecting a privileged class of criminal than preventing crime.

I just finished reading this entire thread and must say that this is the most off-the-wall comment I have read thus far. I am Southern, born and bred, and haven't ever heard anything so far fetched. Most of the activities of the Klan I ever heard of were conducted at night and not in black churches. If it were only blacks who were restricted from taking guns to church, then why did the restriction apply to white churches also? Dude, I don't mean to flame you but this is way out in left field! Any way, you have a good day now, ya' heah?:laugh:
 
Jesus did not care much for religion either. Read his word and decide for yourself. Don't take the word of man to much to heart for it will let you down everytime.
 
I just finished reading this entire thread and must say that this is the most off-the-wall comment I have read thus far. I am Southern, born and bred, and haven't ever heard anything so far fetched. Most of the activities of the Klan I ever heard of were conducted at night and not in black churches. If it were only blacks who were restricted from taking guns to church, then why did the restriction apply to white churches also? Dude, I don't mean to flame you but this is way out in left field! Any way, you have a good day now, ya' heah?:laugh:

You didn't flame me. Your response was reasonable, valid, and IMHO quite understandable. I made a statement without citation and, unfortunately, at this moment any references I could come up with are loaned out and unavailable until at least after the holidays. So I cannot in the least resent your response to my weak claim.

I do ask, however, that you look at the time period during which these laws were passed. And look at the regions where the first of these laws were passed. Contrary to popular revisionism, the north during and after Reconstruction was (and remains in far too many cases) quite racist, just not as overt. Instead of passing laws, for instance, against Negroes (the term at the time) owning guns, laws were passed requiring a permit from the local sheriff. Usually language was included requiring one to be of good moral character and able to provide references from members of the community of good repute. During testimony in 2007 to repeal Missouri's permit to acquire a concealable weapon, citizens told how that law was used to effectively prevent any blacks from legally purchasing handguns in St. Louis as recently as the nineteen-seventies. At the time of passage the legislatures and the citizens understood that the laws would be selectively applied and enforced.

The South may have had overt segregation laws. But much of the North resented the influx of freed slaves and could be much more violent on a local level to freedmen trying to settle there.

I concede that does not directly address the question of bans on guns in churches. But, again, I refer you to the times when most such laws were passed, the Reconstruction era. What other motive or behavior existed at that time that would have caused so many state and local governments to pass such laws, to reverse a practice that in colonial times sometimes required by law that those attending church be armed?

I may be wrong. It certainly won't be the first time. I take no offense at being corrected. I'm just throwing this out for consideration.
 
Brolin1911A1: Glad you didn't take offense at my comment. I realize that the South(erners) get blamed a lot for things that happened years ago but, surprisingly, you would be pleasantly surprised at the humanity shown towards blacks in the rural areas and how they were helped by the white citizenry as well as also helping. There were (and still are) some that still have that mind set of the antebellum south and segregation but that is a subject for another arena. Back to the subject of guns in church, I have been taught since childhood (a looooong time ago) that guns were taboo in church and were a sign of disrespect to the Lord. In recent years that thought has changed and an apparent necessity to be armed while in church has arisen. My pastor would probably die of shock if he saw a weapon in church. He just doesn't know that they are there , however, I don't think he would mind seeing one if some BG started acting out. I, personally, feel that "one's gotta do what one's gotta do." Y'all have a Merry Christmas.:biggrin:
 
Old Grunt, I happened to post some links in another thread on this website... http://www.usacarry.com/forums/general-firearm-discussion/15918-racism-gun-control-2.html and thought you might find some of the links I posted there of interest, especially Clayton Cramer's 1993 article on the racist roots of gun control. Link Removed The Racist Roots of Gun Control (1995)

The Racist Roots of Gun Control Link Removed is the same article with an interesting foreword by a black man pointing out why groups like the NAACP (in 2003) don't want to discuss the racist origins of gun control laws.

Supreme Court affirms racist origins of Gun Control Supreme Court affirms racist origins of Gun Control is an article on how McDonald v DC exposed the racist origins of DC's gun laws.

http://www.gurapossessky.com/news/parker/documents/07290bsacCongressofRacialEquality.pdf is a brief from Roy Innis and the Congress of Racial Equality in the DC v Heller case regarding the racist origins of gun laws.

The Disarming of Black America by Richard Poe is also a good read with modern, current day laws included. The Disarming of Black America by Richard Poe

Have a Merry Christmas. :wink:
 

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