Real Life Encounter

[Riverkilt]

This happened in Phoenix, Arizona about 20 years ago, before cell phones. A good friend of mine was a Sgt. in the Air Guard and sold vacuum cleaners at night. He dealt in cash and carried his 1911 in the glove box of his Bronco. One hot July night he became involved in a road rage incident with a 30 year old guy who'd spent the day at Traffic Survival School then gone drinking. My friend and the kid played auto tag around town for quite a while. Finally my friend pulled over and the kid pulled up behind him, leaped out of his ride, and began punching my friend in the face through the open window of the Bronco. My friend wears eyeglasses and the kid punched him in the face and glasses a few time then turned and walked away. My friend got his 1911 out of the glove box, got out of the Bronco and drew down on the kid saying something to the effect of "How brave do you feel now sucker?" In response the kid made a grab for the 1911 - like in the movies - when he did he actually pulled on the 1911 causing it to discharge. The bulled severed his aorta and he bled out. His last words were, "Mommy....mommy...." He bled out so completely that the coroner got his blood alcohol level from his eyeball fluid - 0.07 - drunk enough to be stupid.

My friend was tried in Maricopa County Superior Court. The "Victim's" family was there wearing roses. My friend's family and friends were there in support. A really sad situation. My friend was convicted of manslaughter and did 5 years in state prison. No NRA to help him. County prosecutor told him he was the victim until he introduced a pistol into a fist fight. No one made an issue of his finger being on the trigger but it sure makes sense when a guy who's already beat you is coming back at you.

This sad event helped me see the reality of the consequences of drawing...yet I hope it wouldn't keep me from protecting myself when needed.

My friend said over and over he never wanted to kill the drunk kid, he just didn't want to get hit again....but it was his anger that drove the road games and that got him out of his ride to approach the kid after being punched out.

Don't know that there's any right and wrong...just what happened one sad July night in Phoenix.

 

[Peggy Reist]

It might go much the same if it happened today. Since the guy was walking away when he pulled the gun on him, he could have let him go since there was no longer a life-threatening situation. Now if he could have gotten to his gun while he was still being beaten, that might have been different.

 

[wolf_fire]

Your friend pulled over, the other kid pulled in behind, got out of his car and then moved toward your friend to beat him. Why didn't your friend punch on the gas and get out of there while the other kid was out of the car? Perfect escape from someone who obviously was having aggressive tendencies.

Your friend got punched in the face and then the other kid WALKED AWAY. Your friend then escalates the situation and pulls his gun on someone walking away. STUPID MOVE. Only 5 years in prison? He's lucky he didn't get a murder charge.

Your friend, at that point was no longer defending himself. He became the aggressor since the physical altercation was over.

The only time that firearm should ever be pulled is when you are willing to use it. His actions and words proved otherwise. He was trying to intimidate at that point. The other kid had every right to then try to defend himself from the aggressor with the gun.

Three things your friend could have done: a) during "auto tag", your friend could have driven to the nearest police station, b) he could have escaped the moment the other guy leaped out of his car, and c) gone home or preferably to the police after the other kid walked away.

If he had gone to the police, the other kid would have been charged, the other kid would not have been dead, and your friend wouldn't be a felon for life.

You mention that you don't know if there's any right or wrong. Really? There was wrong from both of these guys. However, the incident should have been over when the other kid walked away. The physical incident could have never started had your friend driven to a police station, or after pulling over, sped away once the other guy jumped out of the car. Your friend had several good choices, he chose none of them and then chose an absolutely horrendous decision to pull a gun on someone walking away.

You mentioned this happened 20 years ago and you are a former LEO who comes from a whole family of LEO's, yet you aren't sure after all this time if your friend was right or wrong? I find that quite incredible.

 

[Riverkilt]

Good points. Don't see the need to drag how I posted into the situation though. A couple factors. Back then the "road rage" was getting common and out of hand. Just before my friend's incident someone ripped off a round into another car during "car tag." That round killed a child in the car - no clue why anyone with a child in the car would engage in "car tag".... the other is back then punching a man wearing glasses in the face was like an ultimate bad thing to do and I can't help but think my friend was indignant over that. Big mistakes I see are same as mentioned...not ending the duel at a police station or safe location...drawing down on the kid when he had disengaged the fight and left, and pointing the 1911 at the kid with a finger on the trigger. I'm also surprised that the charges weren't more severe due to the insanity of the times back then...so much car to car violence happening in Phoenix then. My point of the post is to point out how complicated such situations can be and how easily our anger can suck us into lethal situations and block the clear headed thinking we have after the fact.

 

[Johnny Dollar]

There's another point that's being over looked here the OP's buddy pointed a loaded weapon at the bad guy and the bad guy wasn't intimidated in the least. As a matter of fact the bad guy attacked the OP's buddy when there was no doubt that he was armed.

So much for the firearm as deterent theory

 

[Warbirds]

There's another point that's being over looked here the OP's buddy pointed a loaded weapon at the bad guy and the bad guy wasn't intimidated in the least. As a matter of fact the bad guy attacked the OP's buddy when there was no doubt that he was armed.

So much for the firearm as deterent theory

You mean so much for a drunk being rational. Weird that you came to that conclusion.

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[Johnny Dollar]

You mean so much for a drunk being rational. Weird that you came to that conclusion.

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How is it wierd? there are many here that tell us that just the sight of the the mighty boom stick sends criminals running

 

[wolf_fire]

Our anger and emotion should never play a factor into whether we pull a firearm or not.

I have gotten into arguments, disagreements, and down right awful tempers while carrying. Not once did it ever occur to me to pull my firearm on the other person. Good thing too, some of those heated arguments were with my wife. If one cannot control their temper to the point they don't know when to pull out a gun and when not, they really should never be carrying.

That firearm comes out only when I feel my life or someone else's life is in danger. It's not there to assuage my hurt feelings or to seek vengeance. That's how I see what your friend did. He consciously, after getting beat up and the other guy left, leaned over the front seat, opened the glove box, grabbed the gun, opened the car door, aimed the gun at the other kid and said, "How brave do you feel now sucker?". This wasn't just anger, this was conscious and calculated. And what has your friend said he wanted to do if the other guy hadn't tried to disarm him? Just stand there awhile, perhaps? He raised the stakes and once raised, it's very difficult to come back down.

 

[Warbirds]

How is it wierd? there are many here that tell us that just the sight of the the mighty boom stick sends criminals running

So you expect rational thinking from someone under the influence?

Funny, I have had a drunk point a gun at me but never someone sober, but you don't see a difference there.

Try finding a real reason to justify your opinion, this one is weak.

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[telpinaro]

Situations like this are why pro-gun-control people are afraid of guns. Pulling a gun during road rage is one of the things they keep saying will happen if everyone is armed! That is a specific situation that an anti could pull out of a hat and say, "If we had gotten rid of all the guns, that guy wouldn't have died." They won't see that it doesn't matter, it's possible it would have ended in someone's death. To be honest, it is highly unlikely though... Blustering, several punches, and everyone would have gone home bruised but satisfied.

That's why it's so important, as wolf_fire said, not to let emotions like anger dictate our actions. Different times back then, yes, but that gun shouldn't have left the holster.

 

[VT Patriot]

Question: When the kid started back to his car, who's to say he wasn't going to HIS gun?

 

[telpinaro]

Question: When the kid started back to his car, who's to say he wasn't going to HIS gun?

Possible, but still an opportunity to drive away.

 

[SR40c]

There's another point that's being over looked here the OP's buddy pointed a loaded weapon at the bad guy and the bad guy wasn't intimidated in the least. As a matter of fact the bad guy attacked the OP's buddy when there was no doubt that he was armed.

So much for the firearm as deterent theory

This has to be one of the most "dumbass" posts I have ever seen in this forum.

 

[BluesStringer]

This has to be one of the most "dumbass" posts I have ever seen in this forum.

Oh my Brother SR40c, that is mild compared to the dumbassery that regularly spews forth from the OP of this thread. Just one among many examples that leave ol' Johnny lookin' like a freakin' genius would be, in a puke-fest referring to the Boston bombing the day that it happened....

My money is on a lone domestic right wing paranoid looney tune angry about taxes...and with a cruel heart. We can't keep breeding like this without abortions - too many nut cases being allowed to live and wreak havoc.

He has repeatedly expressed such eugenicist musings as it relates to race too, as opposed to the above where he "just" wants to use abortion as a way to reduce conservative thought.

Unfortunately, I can't even say with confidence that Riverkilt posts the most dumbassery here. There's a giant universe to pick from within the bowels of this forum. LOL

Blues

 

[Johnny Dollar]

I don’t see any point in picking apart the OP, it’s old news and there’s no need to rub salt in the wounds although some of you here seem to really enjoy doing exactly that.

As for my "dumbassery", I’m trying to make a simple point; there are many people who are absolutely convinced that the mere sight of a firearm will cause the criminal to scream like a little girl and run and that isn’t always true

 

[BluesStringer]

I don’t see any point in picking apart the OP, it’s old news and there’s no need to rub salt in the wounds although some of you here seem to really enjoy doing exactly that.

As for my "dumbassery", I’m trying to make a simple point; there are many people who are absolutely convinced that the mere sight of a firearm will cause the criminal to scream like a little girl and run and that isn’t always true

I didn't say a word about your dumbassery. In fact, I stuck up for you. I said your post wasn't the dumbest one ever on this forum.

Perhaps since you doubled-down on the post that SR40c mistakenly identified as the dumbest post ever though, you could point to one of those posts by someone who is "...absolutely convinced that the mere sight of a firearm will cause the criminal to scream like a little girl and run." All I've ever seen on the "pro" side of that argument is an assertion that there is a deterrent effect to OC. There's quite a wide chasm between "absolutely convinced" and taking note of a deterrent effect. Your penchant for exaggeration and intellectual dishonesty is a deterrent to some folks, maybe even most, extending credibility to anything you have to say. That's not to say that somebody practicing their own brand of dumbassery wouldn't though.

Blues

 

[Riverkilt]

Just for the record, it turned out the young man did not have a knife or a firearm in his car, but of course my angry friend did not know that. And for sure its pretty basic that alcohol - even a little bit of alcohol - generates stupid decisions and bravado.

I remain amazed at how easily folks turn to personal attacks on my personal beliefs and don't welcome opinions that differ - which is the very foundation of the Constitution.

 

[wolf_fire]

Just for the record, it turned out the young man did not have a knife or a firearm in his car, but of course my angry friend did not know that. And for sure its pretty basic that alcohol - even a little bit of alcohol - generates stupid decisions and bravado.

Yes, but the sober one also generated stupid decisions and bravado in this case. The drinking person, turned and walked away after "his business was done". The sober one, decided to bring a firearm into a situation in which it had no place being drawn. The sober one engaged in "auto tag" as well as the drinking person. The sober one didn't drive to the police station, but decided to pull off the side of the road, for what? The drinking one pulled up behind the sober one. The sober one could have taken off, but remained there. A lot of stupid decisions from the sober one. So stupid decisions and bravado aren't relegated only to those that drink, sticking with this case alone.

 

[BluesStringer]

I remain amazed at how easily folks turn to personal attacks on my personal beliefs and don't welcome opinions that differ - which is the very foundation of the Constitution.

Hey Adolf, the only personal beliefs of yours quoted here has been your belief that abortion would be a good way to rid the freakin' world of people who believe differently than you, so save the phony indignation and stick to something you're really good at -- badge-fluffing.

Blues

 

[Firefighterchen]

OP story is why we all should be more thoughtful of our actions, in every moment. How many circles did they make before they stopped? Why not, instead of driving in circles, drive to the police department? This bad scenario, could of been fixed well before the ring around the rosie started.

I don’t see any point in picking apart the OP, it’s old news and there’s no need to rub salt in the wounds although some of you here seem to really enjoy doing exactly that.

As for my "dumbassery", I’m trying to make a simple point; there are many people who are absolutely convinced that the mere sight of a firearm will cause the criminal to scream like a little girl and run and that isn’t always true

I'd like to see were my fellow open carriers and I have ever said that, care to enlighten us of our own words? You might want to look for these convincing posts right where you left all your reports on how many open carriers are targeted first. I won't hold my breath on this one.

Care to explain how his concealed handgun helped him not get his face plowed? So much for that "tactical surprise party."

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