Printing

[ocergryan331]

printing

I guess some people are missing my point. I would never look for trouble. My perception of who I am would never change because I carry a gun. I guess my question is just that if I'm wearing a tshirt and shorts out while walking the dog and there is a bulge on my right side, is this legal or illegal? I know it's a broad question but I want to make sure I am within the law.

 

[snatale42]

I guess some people are missing my point. I would never look for trouble. My perception of who I am would never change because I carry a gun. I guess my question is just that if I'm wearing a tshirt and shorts out while walking the dog and there is a bulge on my right side, is this legal or illegal? I know it's a broad question but I want to make sure I am within the law.

A "bulge" is not printing, the outline of a gun is printing. There is no mention of "printing" or "intentional failure to conceal" in the stuff I just read. You really shouldn't worry about it unless you know your terrible at concealing your gun. What are you carrying, and what holster are you using? Maybe we can give you some suggestions.

Link Removed

 

[bufordtpisser]

Better Yet,

Move to Florida. While we are not yet able to open carry, incidental exposure is no longer a crime. There are those out that that no matter what they carry or how they carry, they are going to print. Printing should not be a crime. But then again the second amendment says the "right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed". It does not say the right of the people to keep and bear arms only if others do not know you are carrying. Paranoia from the non believers is one of the greatest affronts to our 2nd amendment right.

 

[ocergryan331]

printing

I carry two different guns. The first I'm not concerned about which is a Sig p238. I have a Desantis pocket holster and it works great. Now the other gun is a Glock 23 .40 which is a little bulky. I have a owb leather lock holster which is a little bulky but i should be receiving my Desantis sof tuk iwb holster tomorrow. Hopefully this will be comfortable yet nicely concealable.

 

[kelcarry]

Sounds like a rhetorical question that Mr. Gain answered well. Just seems to be common sense, when you look in a mirror, to know whether someone would know in an instant that you are CC. Brandishing is very clear and unmistakeable. The firearm is there for everyone to see. Wearing a see-thru net shirt and having a firearm on your belt, IMO, is brandishing. Wearing any kind of clothes, short of so form fitting that the firearm is obvious is not brandishing.

 

[Phillip Gain]

I guess that leaves nudists out in the cold. :lol:

Not so. There's always the fanny pack holster!

OR THIS:

double shoulder holster by TrenchtownHolsterCo on Etsy

:sarcastic:

 

[tcox4freedom]

A "bulge" is not printing, the outline of a gun is printing. There is no mention of "printing" or "intentional failure to conceal" in the stuff I just read. You really shouldn't worry about it unless you know your terrible at concealing your gun. What are you carrying, and what holster are you using? Maybe we can give you some suggestions.

<a href="http://www.scstatehouse.gov/code/t23c031.htm" target="_blank">S.C. Code of Laws Title 23 Chapter 31 Firearms - Link Removed

^^^This^^^

Last year, (or year before?) SC passed a revision that protects CWP holders from accidental exposure. This included protection from "printing" and "flashing". (Though, I don't think there is mention on the SCLaw website.)

I usually carry a 24/7 Pro C 45 AIWB while I wear a "beach" shirt and shorts. I "ABSOLUTELY" know I have accidently flashed reaching for my wallet on several occasions without incident.

(I have also had my shirt-tail get caught behind my gun and several people saw it before I realized it had happened. But, I think; for the most part, South Carolina residents, unlike resident sheeple in libtard states don't get all bent out of shape over CC. So, I don't really worry about someone making a MWG call.)

I also carry an XDM40 IWB at 3:30. My XDM defintely gives a pronounced "bulge" in my waistband and the extended "grip" can be difficult to conceal while bending, stooping and squatting. But, once again, I personally have NEVER had any problem.

Just dress to "conceal" the best way you can and don't worry to much about it.

AND-

Buying a good IWB holster & belt will go a long way in helping you conceal better while remaining more comfortable.

I use CBSTs has my primary carry holsters; and on most occassions I wear a CB or WT belt to help prevent pulling and drooping. You may also find that AIWB conceals better than strong "side" carry. (I know that's true for me.)

BTW;
I have also found most LEOs in our state strongly support CC. The few times I heard about LEO encounters here with CWP holders, they have ALL been positive.

-

 

[kelcarry]

Hey G: There are some nudists whose overlapping girth belly to hips would allow them to CC without a hint of "exposure"---pardon the pun. I do think that this is being overexamined. The quote of the law in one of the replies clearly refers to normal clothing that would cover the firearm--once again common sense should tell you right away whether you are literally open carrying or clearly printing to anyone with eyesight say with a top that is a see-thru netting type fabric, as opposed to a standard essentially opaque tee shirt.

 

[NavyLCDR]

Brandishing is very clear and unmistakeable. The firearm is there for everyone to see. Wearing a see-thru net shirt and having a firearm on your belt, IMO, is brandishing.

Please do not make sweeping statements that may not be true outside your own state of residence. What you describe is in no way brandishing a firearm in most states.

 

[Dragonbreath]

Doing your best NOT to "print" is simple self-preservation. If a BG (bad guy) can tell that you're carrying, you are his first target if he wants to start something. So even wearing a vest, overshirt, fanny pack, shoulder bag, or jacket in hot weather (for example) can make a BG key in on you as a possible threat, whether you're carrying under it or not.

 

[NavyLCDR]

Doing your best NOT to "print" is simple self-preservation. If a BG (bad guy) can tell that you're carrying, you are his first target if he wants to start something.

AWESOME! I'll bet you will finally be the FIRST person on here who can provide us with real world examples where Joe Citizen was known to be carrying a gun and was the bad guy's choice of targets! I can't wait! I've seen people posting this theory for years and have yet to have anybody post more than one or two of the same questionable examples. Since it must happen quite frequently, I wonder why stories never get published? I would think the anti-gun media would be all over these stories of Joe Citizens getting their guns grabbed, or being targeted first. Surely the internet, newspapers and newscasts must be filled with these situations happening right?

I mean those crazies in those others states that open carry must really be PRIME targets, and they must lose their guns all the time to bad guys, right? Heck, if printing makes you a first target, OMG, open carriers must be swarmed with bad guys looking to target them.... right?!?

Personally, I know if I was a bad guy... and I saw a potential target coming towards me, and I noticed his gun, I am pretty sure I know what I would do. I just wait a couple minutes for him to walk on by, and wait for the next guy to come along whom I could not tell if he had the means available with him to kill me with. I know if I was a bad guy my primary goals in life would be to take what I wanted, in the easiest and quickest means possible, with the less likely chances of drawing attention or getting caught. Messing with a known armed person just simply does not fit into ANY of those goals. Hitting the next guy to come along who does not appear to be carrying a gun and taking his money and giving it to some lady friend that I smooth talked into buying a gun for me....that would be so much easier that it just wouldn't be worth it to me to hit the guy with the gun.

I walk into a convenience store looking to score $100 and there's some guy in there with a hog leg strapped to his belt....I'm going to shoot him first and hope I get that $100 from the register before the cops show up and I go down for an attempted murder rap?!? Ummmmm..... no. Me...I'd just walk down the street to the next convenience store where there wasn't anybody visibly armed.

Deeply concealing a firearm to ensure nobody can see it does two things for you - it makes you look like every other potential target out there, with no more visible means to protect yourself than the next guy AND the more concealment you place between your hand and the gun is that much more stuff you have to move out of the way to get to your gun.

http://www.gunfacts.info/pdfs/gun-facts/5.1/gun-facts-5.1-screen.pdf

Page 31:

Fact: 60% of convicted felons admitted that they avoided committing crimes when they
knew the victim was armed. 40% of convicted felons admitted that they avoided
committing crimes when they thought the victim might be armed.

Fact: Felons report that they avoid entering houses where people are at home because
they fear being shot.

Fact: A survey of felons revealed the following:
• 74% of felons agreed that "one reason burglars avoid houses when people are at
home is that they fear being shot during the crime."
• 57% of felons polled agreed, "criminals are more worried about meeting an armed
victim than they are about running into the police."

 

[Phillip Gain]

NavyLCDR - I've been hearing this "printing or open carry makes you a target" theory for a while too. I agree that in most cases it is BS, and I'm glad you posted some numbers.

However, I want to add in my $0.02 worth on this, to point out some specific instances when open carry would be a bad thing:

1) If you are in a bank that is about to be robbed by "professional" bank robbers (ie ones who have done so before, work as a team, have planned it out, etc) ... these are the kinds of criminals who would not be deterred by a citizen with a firearm. And in this case - you're targeted for being shot or being disarmed, right along with the bank security guard.

2) In certain rough urban areas, gang members and "wanna-bes" will ABSOLUTELY target you if they know you have a firearm. Sometimes it's because they want the firearm, sometimes it's because you're a "big man showing disrespect on their turf." I know a guy in Philadelphia who wants to open carry to assert his right (in light of legal open carriers being hassled recently by police) - but he absolutely will not do so, precisely because he lives in a bad area and knows what will result.

Just some food for thought. I really can see both sides of this particular argument.

 

[NavyLCDR]

1) If you are in a bank that is about to be robbed by "professional" bank robbers (ie ones who have done so before, work as a team, have planned it out, etc) ... these are the kinds of criminals who would not be deterred by a citizen with a firearm. And in this case - you're targeted for being shot or being disarmed, right along with the bank security guard..

I think that the chances of that happening are pretty small. To me, that would be like not walking on the sidewalk next to a multi-story building for fear of a piano or flower pot falling on one's head. Also, in the heat and confusion of that situation, partial concealment of the gun by tightly pressing my elbow against it, I think, would keep the gun from being noticed. I think it would be much more likely for the bad guys to notice the movement of a person attempting to draw a gun from concealment.

2) In certain rough urban areas, gang members and "wanna-bes" will ABSOLUTELY target you if they know you have a firearm. Sometimes it's because they want the firearm, sometimes it's because you're a "big man showing disrespect on their turf." I know a guy in Philadelphia who wants to open carry to assert his right (in light of legal open carriers being hassled recently by police) - but he absolutely will not do so, precisely because he lives in a bad area and knows what will result.

I think there are much easier ways for gangs to obtain firearms than to attack the armed person just to gain it. HOWEVER, I do believe the ego affect is a major consideration (and it really doesn't matter what the motivation behind the attack is.) I personally would not open carry in an area I knew to be a high gang area for that exact reason...actually, I would not be in that area to begin with unless I absolutely had to be. Situational awareness and avoiding a possible criminal situation is still the best defense against a criminal action.

 

[Dragonbreath]

Ridicule does not change facts

AWESOME! I'll bet you will finally be the FIRST person on here who can provide us with real world examples where Joe Citizen was known to be carrying a gun and was the bad guy's choice of targets! I can't wait! I've seen people posting this theory for years and have yet to have anybody post more than one or two of the same questionable examples. Since it must happen quite frequently, I wonder why stories never get published? I would think the anti-gun media would be all over these stories of Joe Citizens getting their guns grabbed, or being targeted first. Surely the internet, newspapers and newscasts must be filled with these situations happening right?

I mean those crazies in those others states that open carry must really be PRIME targets, and they must lose their guns all the time to bad guys, right? Heck, if printing makes you a first target, OMG, open carriers must be swarmed with bad guys looking to target them.... right?!?

Personally, I know if I was a bad guy... and I saw a potential target coming towards me, and I noticed his gun, I am pretty sure I know what I would do. I just wait a couple minutes for him to walk on by, and wait for the next guy to come along whom I could not tell if he had the means available with him to kill me with. I know if I was a bad guy my primary goals in life would be to take what I wanted, in the easiest and quickest means possible, with the less likely chances of drawing attention or getting caught. Messing with a known armed person just simply does not fit into ANY of those goals. Hitting the next guy to come along who does not appear to be carrying a gun and taking his money and giving it to some lady friend that I smooth talked into buying a gun for me....that would be so much easier that it just wouldn't be worth it to me to hit the guy with the gun.

I walk into a convenience store looking to score $100 and there's some guy in there with a hog leg strapped to his belt....I'm going to shoot him first and hope I get that $100 from the register before the cops show up and I go down for an attempted murder rap?!? Ummmmm..... no. Me...I'd just walk down the street to the next convenience store where there wasn't anybody visibly armed.

Deeply concealing a firearm to ensure nobody can see it does two things for you - it makes you look like every other potential target out there, with no more visible means to protect yourself than the next guy AND the more concealment you place between your hand and the gun is that much more stuff you have to move out of the way to get to your gun.

http://www.gunfacts.info/pdfs/gun-facts/5.1/gun-facts-5.1-screen.pdf

Page 31:

OK, my takeaway from the above posting is: (1) The poster DOES want his CCW weapon to print, as much as possible (a bit "passive-aggresive, but it plays along with (2) when you disagree with someone, ridicule their opinion, 'cause after all pissing someone off is sure to win hearts and minds.

I got my opinions from being a police reservist, helping make arrests, and talking with other police officers, detectives, and yes, some crooks. Printing DOES make you a target IF a crook is determined to commit a crime while you're present. Smart crooks would wait until you leave, but then "smart crook" is a contradiction in terms. So printing simply puts you in unnecessary danger.

 

[NavyLCDR]

OK, my takeaway from the above posting is: (1) The poster DOES want his CCW weapon to print, as much as possible (a bit "passive-aggresive, but it plays along with (2) when you disagree with someone, ridicule their opinion, 'cause after all pissing someone off is sure to win hearts and minds.

I got my opinions from being a police reservist, helping make arrests, and talking with other police officers, detectives, and yes, some crooks. Printing DOES make you a target IF a crook is determined to commit a crime while you're present. Smart crooks would wait until you leave, but then "smart crook" is a contradiction in terms. So printing simply puts you in unnecessary danger.

(1) There is nothing passive-aggressive about the firearm I carry. I openly carry. It's called deterrence - a concept you should research.

Link Removed

(2) I've presented real evidence to indicate the error of your theories, and all I asked was the same. All you can present is other people's opinions that agree with yours, with the same lack of real world evidence to provide validation of your theories. There simply is no real world evidence to suggest that the theory that the known presence of a gun makes Joe Citizen any more of a target.

http://www.ammoland.com/2009/07/19/gun-owner-saves-lives-in-the-richmond-va-golden-market-shooting/

Open carry was an advantage in this case because in the video I saw just how fast the GO managed to draw his gun and begin to return fire. You always hear about how open carry is so bad tactically – you’ll be the first one shot, etc. Oh, yeah? The GO had a HUGE gun in plain sight and he was NOT shot. Who got shot first? An unarmed store owner.

 

[Phillip Gain]

I think that the chances of that happening are pretty small. To me, that would be like not walking on the sidewalk next to a multi-story building for fear of a piano or flower pot falling on one's head. Also, in the heat and confusion of that situation, partial concealment of the gun by tightly pressing my elbow against it, I think, would keep the gun from being noticed. I think it would be much more likely for the bad guys to notice the movement of a person attempting to draw a gun from concealment..

Agreed - not likely that any of us are going to be present during a professional bank heist. I'm mostly just making discussion here. But for the sake of that discussion - if we're assuming "smart and ruthless" bank robbers vs "coward if he didn't have a gun" muggers - then I have to disagree that they probably wouldn't notice. And YES it's possible that the BG would notice a CCW trying to draw. But if it's concealed..you can make the choice to NOT draw...or to draw when you feel it's least likely to be noticed. You don't have those options if you've been shot to death by the robber after he saw your weapon.

I think there are much easier ways for gangs to obtain firearms than to attack the armed person just to gain it. HOWEVER, I do believe the ego affect is a major consideration (and it really doesn't matter what the motivation behind the attack is.) I personally would not open carry in an area I knew to be a high gang area for that exact reason...actually, I would not be in that area to begin with unless I absolutely had to be. Situational awareness and avoiding a possible criminal situation is still the best defense against a criminal action.

Well put. And I do my best to avoid those sorts of areas as well, but sometimes easier said than done. Where I live is a really nice area...but drive just a few miles west and you're smack in the middle of a major ghetto...then a few miles more and it's nice again. (Come to think of it...this is actually true for several directions in which I could travel.) Anyway - I certainly wouldn't want my car to break down in some of these areas. But if it did, and in such a way that I had to walk for help...I'd definitely want hardware...but concealed instead of visible.

All a moot point since here in Massachusetts I would be arrested and charged with brandishing if I chose to open carry. Someone really needs to put that law to the test...but I don't have the money for the legal bills, nor the time to spend away from my son if I should lose the case.

 

[NavyLCDR]

Well put. And I do my best to avoid those sorts of areas as well, but sometimes easier said than done. Where I live is a really nice area...but drive just a few miles west and you're smack in the middle of a major ghetto...then a few miles more and it's nice again. (Come to think of it...this is actually true for several directions in which I could travel.) Anyway - I certainly wouldn't want my car to break down in some of these areas. But if it did, and in such a way that I had to walk for help...I'd definitely want hardware...but concealed instead of visible.

Also, 99% of the time all I have to do to conceal my gun is flip my shirt over it. So if I do inadvertently end up in an area of concern it's not like, "OMG, what am I going to do with this gun?!?"

 

[Dragonbreath]

(1) There is nothing passive-aggressive about the firearm I carry. I openly carry. It's called deterrence - a concept you should research.

Link Removed

Don't get me wrong, I'd love to carry openly, but it's not legal here in Florida. My point is that "printing" defeats the purposes of true "concealed carry", and that truly concealing the fact that you're armed DOES have value. As I said in my original post on this issue, "If a BG (bad guy) can tell that you're carrying, you are his first target IF HE WANTS TO START SOMETHING." (emphasis added). I agree that most BG's are going to keep walking if they see armed "victims". But if they are NOT deterred by that fact, it's simple good sense for them to disarm or take out the threat before proceeding. That's what I said, and I'm sticking to it.

(2) I've presented real evidence to indicate the error of your theories, and all I asked was the same. All you can present is other people's opinions that agree with yours, with the same lack of real world evidence to provide validation of your theories. There simply is no real world evidence to suggest that the theory that the known presence of a gun makes Joe Citizen any more of a target.

Gun Owner Saves Lives In The Richmond VA Golden Market Shooting

I happen to know that surveys can be rigged to get just about any result desired, by the way the questions are worded, so what study yielded those stats? As to the real-world evidence, mine came from personal experience and from the personal experiences of other officers with the Jacksonville, FL, Police Dept.. And to me, those actual experiences are a lot more real than any survey answers!

So I reiterate: If you can carry openly, hurray and more power to you! Here in Florida, I can't, so I have to carry concealed. And when carrying concealed, there's value to having your weapons TRULY concealed, though I'm also aware of some situations where "barely concealed" could have some value, too. But I'm biased toward NOT pushing the bad guy down the road to victimize somebody else - I'd rather sucker him out into the open and then blow his ass away!

 

[NavyLCDR]

I happen to know that surveys can be rigged to get just about any result desired, by the way the questions are worded, so what study yielded those stats?

Link Removed

Armed and Considered Dangerous: A Survey of Felons and Their Firearms (Social Institutions and Social Change)
By Peter H. Rossi and James Wright

Review
"...the most comprehensive review of gun control research yet published." -- Contemporary Sociology

"This exhaustive, uncompromising review on weapons, crime, and violence is perhaps the only book worth reading on the issue." -- San Francisco Chronicle

As to the real-world evidence, mine came from personal experience and from the personal experiences of other officers with the Jacksonville, FL, Police Dept.. And to me, those actual experiences are a lot more real than any survey answers!

And you really think that Florida law enforcement is not biased against open carry?
VPC Hearts FL Open Carry Smear Campaign | The Truth About Guns

But I'm biased toward NOT pushing the bad guy down the road to victimize somebody else - I'd rather sucker him out into the open and then blow his ass away!

I wonder how many concealed carry only folks have the hope that they can be the judge, jury and executioner IF they are attacked and the opportunity presents itself. I would rather not put myself and my family through the trauma of the attack, the defensive shooting, and then the legal repercussions. Why would I put concern for a stranger over concern of what would happen to my family if I had to shoot someone? I carry my gun to protect my family from violent action, whether that violent action is a criminal attack - or a violent defensive shooting.

 

[ocergryan331]

I happen to know that surveys can be rigged to get just about any result desired, by the way the questions are worded, so what study yielded those stats?

Link Removed

Armed and Considered Dangerous: A Survey of Felons and Their Firearms (Social Institutions and Social Change)
By Peter H. Rossi and James Wright

Review
"...the most comprehensive review of gun control research yet published." -- Contemporary Sociology

"This exhaustive, uncompromising review on weapons, crime, and violence is perhaps the only book worth reading on the issue." -- San Francisco Chronicle

As to the real-world evidence, mine came from personal experience and from the personal experiences of other officers with the Jacksonville, FL, Police Dept.. And to me, those actual experiences are a lot more real than any survey answers!

And you really think that Florida law enforcement is not biased against open carry?
VPC Hearts FL Open Carry Smear Campaign | The Truth About Guns

But I'm biased toward NOT pushing the bad guy down the road to victimize somebody else - I'd rather sucker him out into the open and then blow his ass away!

I wonder how many concealed carry only folks have the hope that they can be the judge, jury and executioner IF they are attacked and the opportunity presents itself. I would rather not put myself and my family through the trauma of the attack, the defensive shooting, and then the legal repercussions. Why would I put concern for a stranger over concern of what would happen to my family if I had to shoot someone? I carry my gun to protect my family from violent action, whether that violent action is a criminal attack - or a violent defensive shooting.

Very well put