Open carry experience...

[Firefighterchen]

Anyone know the details of this OCer being attacked?

http://www.kob.com/article/stories/S1982974.shtml?cat=500#

The DEA agent had video evidence he was going to rob the place...

It had nothing to do with a mentality disturbed person at all.

I'm glad I don't live there, I can't think of any restaurant or diner that doesn't sell alcohol.

 

[NavyLCDR]

Anyone know the details of this OCer being attacked?

Customer attacked at Garcia's restaurant | KOB.com

Yep. The guy was illegally carrying a gun.

Here's another one:
Link Removed

Of course there is nothing to distinguish it from any other armed robbery and was just as likely to have happened to a person not carrying a gun (concealed carry was completely illegal in Wisconsin, then).

 

[Lakeland Man]

OMG!!! WHO CARES!!!

It's male bovine excrement like this thread has degenerated to that is the main reason I don't come to this board much anymore. I used to "check in" two or three times daily. Now, its once or twice a week, and I'm getting to the point where I am losing interest in coming THAT often.

 

[B2Tall]

Anyone know the details of this OCer being attacked?

Customer attacked at Garcia's restaurant | KOB.com

Looks like he got assaulted by some whacko pretending to be a cop. Of course if he'd been CCing then this wouldn't have happened. Looks like the whacko wasn't at all deterred or intimidated by the OCers pistol. Good example although the OC crew will find some way to pooh-pooh it just as they did when another example was posted earlier. It illustates perfectly the disadvantage of OCing. I believe the odds of this kind of stuff happening (i.e. the open pistol creating the problem) are greater than the odds of me needing to defend myself with the pistol in the first place.

What the dedicated OCers on this site refuse to acknowledge is that they (and OCers in general) make up such a miniscule segment of the population that no stats are kept on the subject. I'm 47 yrs old, been a gun enthusiast since childhood, spent a lot of time in OC-friendly states, and only once have I ever seen somebody OCing outside of a hunting area or firearm event. One time. In other words, while the odds of any given individual being involved in an "incident" are quite slim, the odds of that individual being an OCer are even slimmer simply because there are so few OCers out there in the first place. It stands to reason that if there were more OCers in this country - say, a million on an average day, there would be far more incidents like the one you noted above. But that's just me using clear-cut logic.

 

[NavyLCDR]

But that's just me using clear-cut logic.

Let's say there are 10,000 open carriers out there nationwide. Probably a conservative number. We have 2 cases of open carriers being attacked or robbed. 2 out of 10,000. That's .02%. Which leaves 99.98% unmolested by criminals. And that is not even taking into account the amount of time that goes by between attacks.

If the number jumps to 100,000 open carriers out there nationwide, then probably 20 will be attacked or robbed. That's .02%. Which leaves 99.98% unmolested by criminals.

Even if there are only 1,000 open carriers out there. Now the percentages jump to .2% attacked or robbed and 99.8% left alone.

When the majority of criminals say that they will be deterred by the fact that they know a potential victim has a gun, and given the fact that during most defensive uses of a firearm no shots are fired, the mere sight of the gun scares them away... then the odds seem to be stacked incredibly in favor of the open carrier.

Just using some logic there....

Now if we could just get the percentage of open carriers who are unlawfully detained and harassed by cops down to the same percentage as are attacked by criminals, we would be doing good.

 

[Firefighterchen]

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/localnews/2013513644_slaying25m.html

If only this guy didn't open...oh wait, he looked exactly like all the concealed carriers and was attacked by a mentally ill person. Had nothing to do with the mental illness at all,. I can go on all day posting stories about people who may or may not be concealing, since that's the point of concealed means concealed. You look like every other unarmed person being attacked.

 

[Firefighterchen]

But that's just me using clear-cut logic.

Let's say there are 10,000 open carriers out there nationwide. Probably a conservative number. We have 2 cases of open carriers being attacked or robbed. 2 out of 10,000. That's .02%. Which leaves 99.98% unmolested by criminals. And that is not even taking into account the amount of time that goes by between attacks.

If the number jumps to 100,000 open carriers out there nationwide, then probably 20 will be attacked or robbed. That's .02%. Which leaves 99.98% unmolested by criminals.

Even if there are only 1,000 open carriers out there. Now the percentages jump to .2% attacked or robbed and 99.8% left alone.

When the majority of criminals say that they will be deterred by the fact that they know a potential victim has a gun, and given the fact that during most defensive uses of a firearm no shots are fired, the mere sight of the gun scares them away... then the odds seem to be stacked incredibly in favor of the open carrier.

Just using some logic there....

Now if we could just get the percentage of open carriers who are unlawfully detained and harassed by cops down to the same percentage as are attacked by criminals, we would be doing good.

Anti OC love the link you posted. Lets use those numbers. Hundreds of thousands open carry, we have two examples of alleged attacks caused by the sight of a gun. That equates to .00002%. Horrible odds right there.

 

[santa]

My turn. Civilized debate is one thing and I mean no disrespect to anyone but this thread has degenerated and is doing nothing but causing tempers to flare and blood pressure to rise. FYI most of the time I CC but on occasion do OC. I am grateful that in this country we have the right(with some unfortunate exceptions)to carry as we see fit. It boils down to the reason why we carry, NOT HOW. Attitude and training is everything. The question I have is wouldnt our time and energy be better spent trying to change gun-unfriendly laws rather than argue amongst ourselves? Just my 25 cents(2 cents inflation)worth.

 

[B2Tall]

In posted article, the fact that he was OCing apparently bumped his chances of getting attacked up to 100%. The entire incident was created by the gun on the OCers hip. It wasn't random. He was targeted because he was OCing.

The odds of any individual getting attacked on any given day is very, very slim regardless of whether they're OCing, CCing, or not carrying at all. Chances are that none of us will ever be in a situation like that. However, this man saw those odds skyrocket because he was OCing. The other article discussed on these boards - the guy OCing in Milwaukee - well, he lost the option to effectively defend himself because the unimpressed perp knew he was armed and took appropriate action. Money - gone. Gun - gone. His decision to OC left him hanging out to dry.

 

[surfcc]

I was with you until you said you were open carrying and drank two beers. Every self respecting gun toter knows this is taboo. Thanks for F&cking it up for all of us!

 

[Firefighterchen]

I was with you until you said you were open carrying and drank two beers. Every self respecting gun toter knows this is taboo. Thanks for F&cking it up for all of us!

I don't believe he is screwing it up for me. Speak for yourself please.

 

[Firefighterchen]

In posted article, the fact that he was OCing apparently bumped his chances of getting attacked up to 100%. The entire incident was created by the gun on the OCers hip. It wasn't random. He was targeted because he was OCing.

The odds of any individual getting attacked on any given day is very, very slim regardless of whether they're OCing, CCing, or not carrying at all. Chances are that none of us will ever be in a situation like that. However, this man saw those odds skyrocket because he was OCing. The other article discussed on these boards - the guy OCing in Milwaukee - well, he lost the option to effectively defend himself because the unimpressed perp knew he was armed and took appropriate action. Money - gone. Gun - gone. His decision to OC left him hanging out to dry.

Completely ignoring the mental disorder. Ok. His gun wasn't the reason he was targeted, the video evidence that he was going to rob the place was. DEA agents know their stuff.

All of the incidents that a concealed carrier was attacked, the fact they concealed their handgun to look unarmed bumped their chances of been attacked up to 100%. Bad guys don't randomly choose their victims. The fact concealing your handgun makes you look like another victim is the reason they are targeted.

The milwaukee guy, was attacked at knife point before. If the chances of being attacked are low, how does this guy get chosen twice? If he had chosen to conceal, he would of still been mugged. Money and gun would be gone then too. Of choose that's an assumption, just like the reason he was targeted in the first place.

 

[grmerrill]

The DEA agent had video evidence he was going to rob the place...

It had nothing to do with a mentality disturbed person at all.

I'm glad I don't live there, I can't think of any restaurant or diner that doesn't sell alcohol.

Link Removed

Making things up to prove your point helps no one. I don't see any indication you meant to be sarcastic......

From the article.
APD had arrested Chris Torres in February for impersonating a federal agent. Police said he stood up in a restaurant and declared he was with the Drug Enforcement Agency, and that another customer was trying to rob the place.

 

[grmerrill]

Man... I go to the woods to cut firewood overnight and things get out of control. Lets get things straightened out.

Yep. The guy was illegally carrying a gun.

Here's another one:
Link Removed

Of course there is nothing to distinguish it from any other armed robbery and was just as likely to have happened to a person not carrying a gun (concealed carry was completely illegal in Wisconsin, then).

This does not matter, nor does any example of statistics you may make up. You say people want real world examples to prove his theories. You now have them... are they still theories?

I already looked into chens post... he lied... ooh well

OMG!!! WHO CARES!!!

It's male bovine excrement like this thread has degenerated to that is the main reason I don't come to this board much anymore. I used to "check in" two or three times daily. Now, its once or twice a week, and I'm getting to the point where I am losing interest in coming THAT often.

Has anyone found this guy a therapist yet? Maybe he should take his toys and go home.... gonna miss him.

Let's say there are 10,000 open carriers out there nationwide. Probably a conservative number. We have 2 cases of open carriers being attacked or robbed. 2 out of 10,000. That's .02%. Which leaves 99.98% unmolested by criminals. And that is not even taking into account the amount of time that goes by between attacks.

You have peaked my interest... I am going to open a thread to see if anyone here from Utah is an OCer. Explain one thing... What is it about OCing that deters crime? It can't just be the fact that they know you have a gun. If it was so there wouldn't be nearly as many police officer widows. But i'm fairly new so i'm not sure of the arguement.

In posted article, the fact that he was OCing apparently bumped his chances of getting attacked up to 100%. The entire incident was created by the gun on the OCers hip. It wasn't random. He was targeted because he was OCing.

Did you know that there is not ONE documented instance of anyone CCing in Hiroshima or Nagasaki when the bombs fell. YUP you got it... CCing 100000% times effective at detering nuclear attack.
Now here is where I point out I think statistics should mean something and not be made up.

and finally

I was with you until you said you were open carrying and drank two beers. Every self respecting gun toter knows this is taboo. Thanks for F&cking it up for all of us!

+1
But.. from personal experience.. duck and cover man... a potential crap storm commeth.

 

[Firefighterchen]

Gremlin Fail

Anyone know the details of this OCer being attacked?

Customer attacked at Garcia's restaurant | KOB.com

Link Removed

Making things up to prove your point helps no one. I don't see any indication you meant to be sarcastic......

From the article.
APD had arrested Chris Torres in February for impersonating a federal agent. Police said he stood up in a restaurant and declared he was with the Drug Enforcement Agency, and that another customer was trying to rob the place.

Uh...two links to two reports. Nice one. This is from YOUR article,

'Garcia had a gun on his hip, in a holster. Torres saw this, announced to everyone that he was a DEA agent and said he had video evidence that Garcia was planning to rob the restaurant. "

So before you start calling people names, maybe you should check yourself.

The great thing about the internet is you can put your own voice to my text. I will not include *sarcasm* explanations to accommodate you, sorry.

 

[Firefighterchen]

Looks like he got assaulted by some whacko pretending to be a cop. Of course if he'd been CCing then this wouldn't have happened.

I like how he knows exactly what a mentally ill person thinks. He knows, for sure, that mentally ill people off their medication would not have attacked someone :-/ I also like how he calls mentally ill people wackos...I wonder what he calls down syndrome kids and Alzheimer patients?

 

[grmerrill]

Uh...two links to two reports. Nice one. This is from YOUR article,

'Garcia had a gun on his hip, in a holster. Torres saw this, announced to everyone that he was a DEA agent and said he had video evidence that Garcia was planning to rob the restaurant. "

So before you start calling people names, maybe you should check yourself.

The great thing about the internet is you can put your own voice to my text. I will not include *sarcasm* explanations to accommodate you, sorry.

Dude... READING COMPREHENSION.

To sum it up
1st article from Albuquerque, article from February 2011
Christopher Torres (said to have mental issues) walks into restraunt CLAIMS to be DEA, attacks patron who is carrying weapon, Christopher gets arrested, patron also arrested.

2nd article from Albuquerque, article from April 2011
Christopher Torres (said to have mental issues) is shot by cops, article states.
"APD had arrested Chris Torres in February for impersonating a federal agent. Police said he stood up in a restaurant and declared he was with the Drug Enforcement Agency, and that another customer was trying to rob the place"

What you said
The DEA agent had video evidence he was going to rob the place... WRONG!

It had nothing to do with a mentality disturbed person at all... WRONG!

I'm glad I don't live there, I can't think of any restaurant or diner that doesn't sell alcohol... Um ok

Now.... either to live in Albuquerque you must be named Christopher Torres, have mental issues, and claim to be a DEA agent OR your reading comprehension is an EPIC FAIL.

So before you start calling people names, maybe you should check yourself.

Practice what you preach.

 

[Firefighterchen]

You have peaked my interest... I am going to open a thread to see if anyone here from Utah is an OCer. Explain one thing... What is it about OCing that deters crime? It can't just be the fact that they know you have a gun. If it was so there wouldn't be nearly as many police officer widows. But i'm fairly new so i'm not sure of the arguement.

This has come up before in multiple threads...since some of these kinds of threads are 100's of pages long, it's hard to find them all.

Police are targeted for completely different reasons than a civilian. Police are killed when bad guys are trying to escape the authority of law. There are very rare instances of police being targets for the single act of murder (as in the bad guy has not been caught for another crime, and is not attempting to escape). For the majority of police deaths, the bad guys don't want to get caught, so they will kill their way free. Civilians aren't trying to arrest bad guys.

This goes the same with armed guards (ie: Money transports). The average person isn't carrying a bag of $10k+ around with a sign over their head saying, " I Have a lot of money!" So, all the armed guards being shot from behind don't fall into the same category as a civilian.

On the contrary, both these professions use open carry to not only deter crime, but to react to an attack faster than if they concealed their weapons. Risk vs Benefit. There are very few criminals that will attempt such a high risk robbery. When it comes to civilians, is that same high risk robbery worth the $50? $1000?

 

[Firefighterchen]

Dude... READING COMPREHENSION.

To sum it up
1st article from Albuquerque, article from February 2011
Christopher Torres (said to have mental issues) walks into restraunt CLAIMS to be DEA, attacks patron who is carrying weapon, Christopher gets arrested, patron also arrested.

2nd article from Albuquerque, article from April 2011
Christopher Torres (said to have mental issues) is shot by cops, article states.
"APD had arrested Chris Torres in February for impersonating a federal agent. Police said he stood up in a restaurant and declared he was with the Drug Enforcement Agency, and that another customer was trying to rob the place"

What you said
The DEA agent had video evidence he was going to rob the place... WRONG!

It had nothing to do with a mentality disturbed person at all... WRONG!

I'm glad I don't live there, I can't think of any restaurant or diner that doesn't sell alcohol... Um ok

Now.... either to live in Albuquerque you must be named Christopher Torres, have mental issues, and claim to be a DEA agent OR your reading comprehension is an EPIC FAIL.


Practice what you preach.

(Edit)
OMG... both links even have videos that explain the same... what do you need? A pop up book?

Sigh what a lack of common sense, or should I say common sense "EPIC FAIL"....since you still can't tell, I will accommodate you and put *sarcasm* in so you don't get confused.

The DEA agent had video evidence he was going to rob the place... *SARCASM*

It had nothing to do with mentally disturbed person at all... *SARCASM*

I can't believe you didn't get that...did you really think someone could read your article and seriously think Torres was a DEA agent?

I don't remember ever calling you names...so I am practicing what I'm preaching.

To be fair, I didn't even read your second article, since I figured you snipped out the important part, and my original post you quoted was from your first article anyways. I find the 2nd article interesting that it didn't include his victim was an open carrier...so was it the gun or the robbery that set off his violence?

Edit: And no I do not need a pop up book...does your mother need to put soap in your mouth?

 

[B2Tall]

Link Removed

Making things up to prove your point helps no one. I don't see any indication you meant to be sarcastic......

From the article.
APD had arrested Chris Torres in February for impersonating a federal agent. Police said he stood up in a restaurant and declared he was with the Drug Enforcement Agency, and that another customer was trying to rob the place.

Good luck, Merrill. Tough to argue with someone who's always right and makes stuff up to boot. You'd be better off debating a 5-yr old what's healthier to eat - steamed vegetables or cookies! :biggrin: