Open carry confrontation at a Rest Stop

[apvbguy]

We don't include them because NYC won't give out the numbers. Many people are under the assumption that one can't have a handgun in NYC. To the contrary there are a lot of handguns in NYC. You can get a permit very easily

here we go again, more nonsense from this guy, anyone can get a hand gun in NYC easily? I guess having to travel to 1PP to pick up the paperwork, fill it out, get the proper references, pay hundreds of dollars, wait well over 9 months, make a few more trips to 1PP, then maybe if all goes well they may issue you a permit for you to keep a gun in your home or business, but that gun can never leave the place it is permitted to be. then once you get your permit you need to go through a similar process in order to obtain a permission slip to go buy a gun. and that process is just as onerous, you need to go to a gun shop where you can only look for a weapon, then you can put a deposit on that weapon, then you need to get the make, caliber, and serial number of that specific weapon, take it down to 1PP, file the paper work and maybe in 6 months to a year the powers that be will grant you permission to purchase that weapon.
We've been down this road before, and you still spout the same clueless nonsense.
And for what it is worth the same inane procedures are in place in Nassau Suffolk Westchester and Rockland counties.
easy??? for whom? blommies pals maybe?

 

[Johnny Dollar]

I'm begining to think you'd ***** if they hung you with a new rope

 

[BC1]

here we go again, more nonsense from this guy, anyone can get a hand gun in NYC easily? I guess having to travel to 1PP to pick up the paperwork, fill it out, get the proper references, pay hundreds of dollars, wait well over 9 months, make a few more trips to 1PP, then maybe if all goes well they may issue you a permit for you to keep a gun in your home or business, but that gun can never leave the place it is permitted to be. then once you get your permit you need to go through a similar process in order to obtain a permission slip to go buy a gun. and that process is just as onerous, you need to go to a gun shop where you can only look for a weapon, then you can put a deposit on that weapon, then you need to get the make, caliber, and serial number of that specific weapon, take it down to 1PP, file the paper work and maybe in 6 months to a year the powers that be will grant you permission to purchase that weapon.
We've been down this road before, and you still spout the same clueless nonsense.
And for what it is worth the same inane procedures are in place in Nassau Suffolk Westchester and Rockland counties.
easy??? for whom? blommies pals maybe?

You do know I do permit services in NY don't you. A lot of USACarry members have come to me for their permits. You are completely wrong about Rockland. My old bus partner lives in Rockland and has no issues. We regularly file Rockland permits for people and I've only seen denials for cause (certain drug crimes and crimes against persons). Yes, we register the gun. So what? Who cares about registration. No one is ever getting that gat from me.
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Regarding Westchester, the UNITED STATES COURT of APPEALS for the SECOND CIRCUIT (not a NYS court) determined that refusing to provide a carry permit doesn't violate the second amendment. That decision was in contrast to other fed circuit courts who ruled the opposite. So this thing needs to go the SCOTUS for a final ruling. Should the mix of justices be changed by the Obama administration this will become a nightmare for many states. At that point they would be free to deny the carry permit. Nassau and Westchester will ask for cause before issuing an unrestricted carry permit. The permit could be restricted to certain activities such as transporting goods and $$, target, sport, hunting, etc. however, both of these counties must follow NYS PL 400.00 for the process. NYS Penal 400 also states that any permit issued by the state shall be good throughout the state (excepting NYC), notwithstanding (in spite of) any county or local law. So, those counties may want to restrict their residents but they cannot restrict others who obtained their permit in another county. Suffolk County is fairly easy to get the permit. I have a couple of guys who come-up for PP training. In any county within NYS (other than within NYC) you cannot be arrested for carrying the gun outside of the restrictions as NYS PL 265.20(3) exempts a permit holder from criminal charges. It would be an administrative violaion of S400.00 and the law is completely silent on the consequences. Police may not arbitrarily inspect guns to see if the number of rounds exceeds the law if the person has a valid permit and is not currently breaking the law. A NYC permit is only valid within the city limits and anyone found outside of the city is prosecuted. By the same thing, NYS permits are not valid in the city and we'll get arrested if we carry without the city permit. NYS will not issue a permit to a city resident unless s/he owns a business or a home outside of the city. When residents move we're allowed to retain our NYS permit, despite no longer being a resident.
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FYI, the Heller and McDonald SCOTUS decisions affirmed that NYC cannot deny the handgun (nor can Chicago or Washington D.C. or any other state) without cause. Such cause may not be arbitrary or capricious. In other words, you don't need to know someone. You'll be denied if you have a certain criminal or mental health history. But the denial must cite the exact reason. It runs about $400; a little expensive. Then again, a beer at a bar is about $7.50. I had a carry permit in NYC for years because I owned a business there. I haven't renewed it this time because I sold the company and retired.
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I hope this clears-up some things about NY. This link will substantiate what I've posted regarding city permits --> Link Removed. I'll try to get some stats on the number of permits to date but it's hard cause they don't publish the data.
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you gonna come see me when I come for the winter? :yes4:

 

[apvbguy]

You do know I do permit services in NY don't you. A lot of USACarry members have come to me for their permits. You are completely wrong about Rockland. My old bus partner lives in Rockland and has no issues. We regularly file Rockland permits for people and I've only seen denials for cause (certain drug crimes and crimes against persons). Yes, we register the gun. So what? Who cares about registration. No one is ever getting that gat from me.


Regarding Westchester, the UNITED STATES COURT of APPEALS for the SECOND CIRCUIT (not a NYS court) determined that refusing to provide a carry permit doesn't violate the second amendment. That decision was in contrast to other fed circuit courts who ruled the opposite. So this thing needs to go the SCOTUS for a final ruling. Should the mix of justices be changed by the Obama administration this will become a nightmare for many states. At that point they would be free to deny the carry permit. Nassau and Westchester will ask for cause before issuing an unrestricted carry permit. The permit could be restricted to certain activities such as transporting goods and $$, target, sport, hunting, etc. however, both of these counties must follow NYS PL 400.00 for the process. NYS Penal 400 also states that any permit issued by the state shall be good throughout the state (excepting NYC), notwithstanding (in spite of) any county or local law. So, those counties may want to restrict their residents but they cannot restrict others who obtained their permit in another county. Suffolk County is fairly easy to get the permit. I have a couple of guys who come-up for PP training. In any county within NYS (other than within NYC) you cannot be arrested for carrying the gun outside of the restrictions as NYS PL 265.20(3) exempts a permit holder from criminal charges. It would be an administrative violaion of S400.00 and the law is completely silent on the consequences. Police may not arbitrarily inspect guns to see if the number of rounds exceeds the law if the person has a valid permit and is not currently breaking the law.
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FYI, the Heller and McDonald SCOTUS decisions affirmed that NYC cannot deny the handgun (nor can Chicago or Washington D.C. or any other state) without cause. Such cause may not be arbitrary or capricious. In other words, you don't need to know someone. You'll be denied if you have a certain criminal or mental health history. But the denial must cite the exact reason. It runs about $400; a little expensive. Then again, a beer at a bar is about $7.50. I had a carry permit in NYC for years because I owned a business there. I haven't renewed it this time because I retired.
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This link will substantiate what I've posted regarding city permits --> Link Removed. I'll try to get some stats on the number of permits to date.

maybe I went too far including rockland however I stand by what I say, you may or may not facilitate people getting their permits in your counties but there is no way you are getting one for anyone in NYC
all the BS you posted is IRRELEVANT, what I related has been SOP for NYC and it's neighboring suburban counties for more than 30 years.

 

[BC1]

maybe I went too far including rockland however I stand by what I say, you may or may not facilitate people getting their permits in your counties but there is no way you are getting one for anyone in NYC
all the BS you posted is IRRELEVANT, what I related has been SOP for NYC and it's neighboring suburban counties for more than 30 years.

The cost is $2,250 for us to do a NYC permit. That includes attorney representation and handling of all forms and references as well as interview prep. A NYC permit takes about 6 months but the permit is not for carrying, it is to own the gun and keep it in one's home or business.
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I gave you what you called irrelevant because you wanted sources cited. Everything I've posted is in those sources. So now you must cite sources to disprove what I said. That was your rule remember? BTW, I live in a neighboring suburban county and haven't heard of any of this stuff you speak of.
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Cite: This NYC SOP you speak of. Where is it?
Cite: Any provision of law regarding Rockland, Westchester, Nassau and Suffolk refusing to issue permits.
Cite: Any provision of any law limiting handgun permits in any county. Some, including Dutchess county (40 miles from NYC) only issue full, unrestricted carry permits.
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Here ya go... you can learn the truth or cite incorrect provisions. Goes against some peoples grain to read and see where they're misinformed.
- Article 400 - Licensing - Article 400 Penal Law - Licensing Provisions Relating to Firearms
- Article 265 - Firearms & dangerous Weapons - Article 265 - Penal Law - Firearms and Other Dangerous Weapons
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Look, you can hate me but that doesn't mean I'm not truly trying to get the correct info to you. Never hate your adversary; it clouds judgment.

 

[apvbguy]

The cost is $2,250 for us to do a NYC permit. That includes attorney representation and handling of all forms and references as well as interview prep. A NYC permit takes about 6 months but the permit is not for carrying, it is to own the gun and keep it in one's home or business.

I can tell you from experience there is no way they are issuing permits in 6 months and then once you have a permit you face a long wait for the permission slip to buy a gun

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I gave you what you called irrelevant because you wanted sources cited. Everything I've posted is in those sources. So now you must cite sources to disprove what I said. That was your rule remember? BTW, I live in a neighboring suburban county and haven't heard of any of this stuff you speak of.
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Cite: This NYC SOP you speak of. Where is it?
Cite: Any provision of law regarding Rockland, Westchester, Nassau and Suffolk refusing to issue permits.
Cite: Any provision of any law limiting handgun permits in any county. Some, including Dutchess county (40 miles from NYC) only issue full, unrestricted carry permits.
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Here ya go... you can learn the truth or cite incorrect provisions. Goes against some peoples grain to read and see where they're misinformed.
- Article 400 - Licensing - Article 400 Penal Law - Licensing Provisions Relating to Firearms
- Article 265 - Firearms & dangerous Weapons - Article 265 - Penal Law - Firearms and Other Dangerous Weapons
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Look, you can hate me but that doesn't mean I'm not truly trying to get the correct info to you. Never hate your adversary; it clouds judgment.

I never said that anyplace REFUSES to issue permits I said the hoops a citizen has to jump through to get a weapons permit in libtard land is absurd.
here in FLA in 21 days I had a CWFL and I can go into any gun store and buy all the guns I care to without the governments permission beyond a check to see if I have been in trouble with the law, in addition any citizen regardless of possessing a permission slip can buy a gun at anytime as long as they are 1: not disqualified for a variety of reasons and wait 3 days for the libturd created wait period.

Back to NYC, the average citizen does not have the time or money necessary to exercise their rights. $340 application fee hundreds if not thousands for a legal advocate, many visits to 1 PP and at least a years worth of waiting is hardly easy for getting a permit up there.

 

[Bikenut]

The cost is $2,250 for us to do a NYC permit.

I understand that the $2,250 is for your services in assisting folks to get the permit to just HAVE a gun (the "keep" part of "keep and bear arms") and I'm not knocking your charging folks to help them through the process. Quite the contrary.. I'm glad someone is helping folks navigate the mine field of NYC laws.

I do have a comment though...

For many years I've said that "we the people" won't have our guns taken away by laws that ban guns. That would cause too much backlash. But pricing the ability to own/carry guns out of reach of the ordinary person would guarantee that only the rich elite would be able to afford guns and afford to carry them.

But... any scheme that puts a price on the ability to exercise the right to keep and bear arms is an "infringement" because it discriminates against those who don't have enough money.

Actually... the concealed carry permit schemes we have today discriminate against those who can't afford the mandated training (now there is some real world proof that the "mandated training" thing some folks think is a good idea actually is a discriminatory infringement) and can't afford the various fees the State requires to be paid in order to be given a concealed carry permission slip called a "permit".

Now consider if the State changed the requirement for training so that the only "acceptable training" is a 2 week course only offered in one place in the State (or even out of State!) that costs $5,000 plus room and board and ammo and has a 4 year waiting list? How many of us can afford that? Now suppose a refresher course at the same place that is actually the same course all over again and still costs the same as the original... is required every 2 years? Or every year? How about if the cost of the permit itself jumps to $1,000? How many single moms with 3 kids and a violent stalker ex husband is going to be able to afford to jump through those hoops to get a permit? Ummmmmmm... wait.... how many of those single moms are currently unable to get a permit because they can't afford the current costs?

And I personally think (some are going to suggest I get a tin foil hat) that Bloomberg is running a trial balloon called................. "Let's see if we can control guns by getting away with pricing the right to keep and bear arms out of the reach of the ordinary people."

 

[apvbguy]

And I personally think (some are going to suggest I get a tin foil hat) that Bloomberg is running a trial balloon called................. "Let's see if we can control guns by getting away with pricing the right to keep and bear arms out of the reach of the ordinary people."

sorry to be the one to kill a good conspiracy theory but NYC and it's environs have been like I've described for the over 30+ years that I've had to deal with them and it's probably been as bad for many years before I got involved with them, the only thing bloomie has done is try to export the NY lunacy regarding people owning and carrying firearms

 

[BC1]

I understand that the $2,250 is for your services in assisting folks to get the permit to just HAVE a gun (the "keep" part of "keep and bear arms") and I'm not knocking your charging folks to help them through the process. Quite the contrary.. I'm glad someone is helping folks navigate the mine field of NYC laws.

I do have a comment though...

For many years I've said that "we the people" won't have our guns taken away by laws that ban guns. That would cause too much backlash. But pricing the ability to own/carry guns out of reach of the ordinary person would guarantee that only the rich elite would be able to afford guns and afford to carry them.

But... any scheme that puts a price on the ability to exercise the right to keep and bear arms is an "infringement" because it discriminates against those who don't have enough money.

Actually... the concealed carry permit schemes we have today discriminate against those who can't afford the mandated training (now there is some real world proof that the "mandated training" thing some folks think is a good idea actually is a discriminatory infringement) and can't afford the various fees the State requires to be paid in order to be given a concealed carry permission slip called a "permit".

Now consider if the State changed the requirement for training so that the only "acceptable training" is a 2 week course only offered in one place in the State (or even out of State!) that costs $5,000 plus room and board and ammo and has a 4 year waiting list? How many of us can afford that? Now suppose a refresher course at the same place that is actually the same course all over again and still costs the same as the original... is required every 2 years? Or every year? How about if the cost of the permit itself jumps to $1,000? How many single moms with 3 kids and a violent stalker ex husband is going to be able to afford to jump through those hoops to get a permit? Ummmmmmm... wait.... how many of those single moms are currently unable to get a permit because they can't afford the current costs?

And I personally think (some are going to suggest I get a tin foil hat) that Bloomberg is running a trial balloon called................. "Let's see if we can control guns by getting away with pricing the right to keep and bear arms out of the reach of the ordinary people."

Yup, I hear you. Different states require different pre-license training. Some want a qualifier as well. Costs can be excessive. $340 for a NYC permit is a lot of money. But then we see the average rent in Manhattan is $3,800. Upstate there is no training requirement in the law. But most counties want applicants to take the four-hour NRA First Steps Pistol course ($65). Westchester County codified its training requirements into the state law.
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There certainly needs to be standardization in NY but we're afraid to push for anything. Cuomo might pull another middle-of-the-night vote. Hell of a way to live... fearing an elected governor. But his history with HUD under Bill Clinton was most disturbing. While in Washington, this hack wanted to prohibit people living in federally subsidized housing from owning a gun... a clear violation of the second. When that failed he started actions against gun companies. His father was no better.
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A Metro-North commuter train from Poughkeepsie-NYC derailed entering the city this morning killing four and injuring over 60. Cuomo was on the scene giving a press conference. My wife saw him hand his aid a large bottle of some kind of soft drink. She wanted him cited for the 16 ounce soda. To give you an idea how bad he is... when hurricane Sandy hit NYC last year, Cuomo was handing out frozen turkeys. My friend threw the turkey on the ground and yelled at him. "We have no heat, power, stove, water or shelter. What the hell am I supposed to do with a frozen turkey."

 

[BC1]

I understand that the $2,250 is for your services in assisting folks to get the permit to just HAVE a gun (the "keep" part of "keep and bear arms") and I'm not knocking your charging folks to help them through the process. Quite the contrary.. I'm glad someone is helping folks navigate the mine field of NYC laws.

I do have a comment though...

For many years I've said that "we the people" won't have our guns taken away by laws that ban guns. That would cause too much backlash. But pricing the ability to own/carry guns out of reach of the ordinary person would guarantee that only the rich elite would be able to afford guns and afford to carry them.

But... any scheme that puts a price on the ability to exercise the right to keep and bear arms is an "infringement" because it discriminates against those who don't have enough money.

Actually... the concealed carry permit schemes we have today discriminate against those who can't afford the mandated training (now there is some real world proof that the "mandated training" thing some folks think is a good idea actually is a discriminatory infringement) and can't afford the various fees the State requires to be paid in order to be given a concealed carry permission slip called a "permit".

Now consider if the State changed the requirement for training so that the only "acceptable training" is a 2 week course only offered in one place in the State (or even out of State!) that costs $5,000 plus room and board and ammo and has a 4 year waiting list? How many of us can afford that? Now suppose a refresher course at the same place that is actually the same course all over again and still costs the same as the original... is required every 2 years? Or every year? How about if the cost of the permit itself jumps to $1,000? How many single moms with 3 kids and a violent stalker ex husband is going to be able to afford to jump through those hoops to get a permit? Ummmmmmm... wait.... how many of those single moms are currently unable to get a permit because they can't afford the current costs?

And I personally think (some are going to suggest I get a tin foil hat) that Bloomberg is running a trial balloon called................. "Let's see if we can control guns by getting away with pricing the right to keep and bear arms out of the reach of the ordinary people."

Still can't find NYC numbers but here's a twist. Include the NYC population even though they can't get a state permit and then adjust the entire state population to those over 21 years-old, the legal age to own a handgun.
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19 million people of which 76% are over the age of 21 (Census Bureau number) = 14.4 million people. New numbers for NYS are close to 1.4 million permits. That's just about 1 in 10 people who are of age to obtain a permit have done so. The number includes NYC population but not NYC permits. Pretty close to the 1 in 8 I originally quoted, even when including NYC.
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If you compute only state residents who are eligible for a state permit, then 1 in 6 (of 8.36 million people) have a CCW permit.

 

[apvbguy]

Yup, I hear you. Different states require different pre-license training. Some want a qualifier as well. Costs can be excessive. $340 for a NYC permit is a lot of money. But then we see the average rent in Manhattan is $3,800.

another absurd comment, what does the price of tea in china have to do with being allowed to exercise your constitutionally protected rights?

 

[Johnny Dollar]

To give you an idea how bad he is... when hurricane Sandy hit NYC last year, Cuomo was handing out frozen turkeys. My friend threw the turkey on the ground and yelled at him. "We have no heat, power, stove, water or shelter. What the hell am I supposed to do with a frozen turkey."

How did he respond

 

[Dr. Dillner]

This thread needs to be closed, it is way off topic.

 

[CharlesMorrison]

Did you guys in NYS ever consider pulling a "Bane" on NYC?



Sent from behind Enemy Lines.

 

[Johnny Dollar]

Did you guys in NYS ever consider pulling a "Bane" on NYC?

What is a "Bane" ?

 

[CharlesMorrison]

Ask Batman...


Sent from behind Enemy Lines.

 

[BC1]

This thread needs to be closed, it is way off topic.

So don't read it.

 

[BC1]

another absurd comment, what does the price of tea in china have to do with being allowed to exercise your constitutionally protected rights?

End of conversation. Did you study statistics in college? You understand sampling methods... what gets or doesn't get included? You can't have data on one side of the equation. Let's sample only those who can get a state permit. Can't include NYC population. Can't include kids.
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Back to the numbers. Refute me using data and mathematics. WHAT % OF PEOPLE IN NYS HAVE A CCW? Answer that question. I stand by the numbers. They're accurate and they're the numbers produced by the state. End of issue.

 

[apvbguy]

End of conversation. Did you study statistics in college? You understand sampling methods... what gets or doesn't get included? You can't have data on one side of the equation. Let's sample only those who can get a state permit. Can't include NYC population. Can't include kids.
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Back to the numbers. Refute me using data and mathematics. WHAT % OF PEOPLE IN NYS HAVE A CCW? Answer that question. I stand by the numbers. They're accurate and they're the numbers produced by the state. End of issue.

are you really this dense???

 

[Johnny Dollar]

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Back to the numbers. Refute me using data and mathematics. WHAT % OF PEOPLE IN NYS HAVE A CCW? Answer that question. I stand by the numbers. They're accurate and they're the numbers produced by the state. End of issue.

To be fair you could ask that question better "Excluding residents of NYC (who can't get the state permit anyway) WHAT % OF PEOPLE IN NYS HAVE A CCW?"