On sheep, sheepdogs, and wolves

[sdprof]

The Ten Commandments thread spent some time on the whole sheep and sheepdog issue.

For those that haven't seen this, there's another approach I think better suits the CCW world - "sheep with fangs". This parable also explains some of the (ir)rationale of the antis.

excerpt

One sheep spoke up, saying "It is his teeth and claws that make the wolf so terrible to us. It is his nature to prey, and he would find any way to do it, but it is the tools he wields that make it possible. If we had such teeth, we could fight back, and stop this savagery." The other sheep clamored in agreement, and they went together to the old bones of the dead wolves heaped in the corner of the pasture, and gathered fang and claw and made them into weapons.

That night, when the wolves came, the newly armed sheep sprang up with their weapons and struck at them and cried "Begone! We are not food!" and drove off the wolves, who were astonished. When did sheep become so bold and so dangerous to wolves? When did sheep grow teeth? It was unthinkable!

The next day, flush with victory and waving their weapons, they approached the flock to pronounce their discovery. But as they drew nigh, the flock huddled together and cried out "Baaaaaaaadddd! Baaaaaddd things! You have bad things! We are afraid! You are not sheep!"

The brave sheep stopped, amazed. "But we are your brethren!" they cried, "We are still sheep, but we do not wish to be food. See, our new teeth and claws protect us and have saved us from slaughter. They do not make us into wolves, they make us equal to the wolves, and safe from their viciousness!"

 

[Treo]

Just another way for a permit holder to aggrandize him/her self

 

[S&WM&P40]

The Ten Commandments thread spent some time on the whole sheep and sheepdog issue.

For those that haven't seen this, there's another approach I think better suits the CCW world - "sheep with fangs". This parable also explains some of the (ir)rationale of the antis.

excerpt

Fact of the matter is, would you/could you really save someone who does not wish to be saved? After being saved they turn around and sue you for giving them PTSD and night terrors!

Some people do not wish to be saved, and I will not go out of my way to save them if that is their wish. Why save a person who will go right back into the same trouble when you leave? They have a name for that kind of person, oh yeah it's called a "BODY GUARD!"

This idea that people with CCW permits/or who open carry are somehow "Sheep Dogs"(still can't say that with out laughing my ass off) simple because they choose to carry a firearm is NUTS.

You hear the talk all the time"If you carry a firearm and won't save people, you have no right to be carrying" etc.. You get people who think of themselves as sheep dogs who stand up on their soap boxes and look down upon the rest of the CCW/OC world.

My firearm is the last thing I ever think about using, I use my WMD(my brain) more then anything!

 

[localgirl]

Well, I do hope you'll pardon me if I step in and assist anyone I believe is in imminent danger, whether I have a small pistol, a loud mouth, or a big stick. If I get my dumb ass shot, you can say "I told you so," and if I manage to help someone who might have otherwise been helpless, maybe they will thank me, and either way I'm certain I will have a clear conscience.

 

[S&WM&P40]

Well, I do hope you'll pardon me if I step in and assist anyone I believe is in imminent danger, whether I have a small pistol, a loud mouth, or a big stick. If I get my dumb ass shot, you can say "I told you so," and if I manage to help someone who might have otherwise been helpless, maybe they will thank me, and either way I'm certain I will have a clear conscience.

Go for it by all means, just be damn sure you have all and I mean ALL the facts before you step in. Could be a setup,could be a off duty officer the what if's are endless!

Clear conscience,forgive me for laughing! If people wish to be defenseless from the scum that is over flowing from the gutter that is their choice to make. I didn't place them in that situation they willingly and knowingly placed themselves into that situation!

The police say it best " We ask that citizens call us and let us deal with it and not try and involved,that's what our job is, we are trained for it." From the mouth of the "professionals!" I will sleep just fine at night, there comes a point when every human has to stand up and take responsibility for their actions, you can't go through life waiting for someone to bail you out.

I think Rorschach says it best,

The streets are extended gutters and the gutters are full of blood and when the drains finally scab over, all the vermin will drown. The accumulated filth of all their sex and murder will foam up about their waists and all the whores and politicians will look up and shout "Save us!"... and I'll whisper "no."

 

[rudiepop]

Ask ANY police officer or MP about their take on the whole "sheepdog" thing. They will look at you sideways like you are stupid and shake their heads. My moral responsibilities did not change just because I carry a gun.
I will however entertain the idea that I am now a "sheep with teeth" as the story describes. However my teeth did not come from the wolves or their dead bones. I chose to grow them myself. The other sheep can grow a "pair" and get their own teeth or stay close to the REAL sheepdogs for protection.
If I put myself in danger to save someone else, I also put my family in danger wether they are with me or not. It is not fair to my wife and children for me to take any extra risk that may leave my wife widowed and my children fatherless. THAT thinking leaves me with a clear concious.
The story is pretty accurate on what happens when you start carrying, people can freak out and reject you. These are the sheep that need a sheepdog ... not another sheep with teeth.

 

[FloridaBlue]

I just like to think of myself as a responsible gun owner who is a human being and avoid the labeling altogether.

 

[B2Tall]

It's not my job to guard the public at-large. I wouldn't hesitate to help a stranger under many (but not all) circumstances, but my CCW does not, and will not, obligate me to be some sort of half-assed LEO. Nope, not me. No sheepdog here.

 

[localgirl]

So that woman getting raped and smashed in the face with a brick knowingly and willingly put herself in that situation? That little kid getting his arm broken by his abusive father does not wish to be saved? Some jerk is kicking a dog down the sidewalk and you aren't even going to suggest he stop? You are seriously telling me that your humanity has degraded to the point that your concern for your own comfort and safety simply can't be inconvenienced for the sake of another? I'm not talking about drawing on someone here, I'm talking about being slightly better than murderers and rapists and people who torture others for their own pleasure. You really can't say so much as stop? You really can't do so much as step in and help someone who can't help themselves? I guess chivalry really is dead. And I guess some random woman on a male dominated forum is the only one who actually has a pair. I'll be darned.

 

[S&WM&P40]

So that woman getting raped and smashed in the face with a brick knowingly and willingly put herself in that situation? That little kid getting his arm broken by his abusive father does not wish to be saved? Some jerk is kicking a dog down the sidewalk and you aren't even going to suggest he stop? You are seriously telling me that your humanity has degraded to the point that your concern for your own comfort and safety simply can't be inconvenienced for the sake of another? I'm not talking about drawing on someone here, I'm talking about being slightly better than murderers and rapists and people who torture others for their own pleasure. You really can't say so much as stop? You really can't do so much as step in and help someone who can't help themselves? I guess chivalry really is dead. And I guess some random woman on a male dominated forum is the only one who actually has a pair. I'll be darned.

First allow me to laugh my ass off! It seems you have a desire to get involved in every conflict you happen to see or walk past, that's your right have a blast at it!!

So doing what the "professionals" tell you to do is "not having a pair" LOL! How many times do we see the police on the news after an attack stating that we should stay out of it and be a good witness? To many to count!

Second don't sit here and try and talk to be about abuse of any kind till you have lived my life, I know what an abusive father and mother is all about. When your mother uses your body as an ash tray for her cigarettes and your father rapes you and your sister, locks you in a room full off broken glass to sleep on. Then you can talk to me about abuse! Spend your whole life in a state system that could give two shits if your alive or dead, foster care family's that are just as bad as your birth mom and dad, then come talk to me. Don't sit behind your computer and preach to me!

I see people hitting their dogs all the time, tugging on the choke chains etc. The dog is their property to do with as they wish, the police don't even say anything to them. So what good would it do to get in a pissing match with them over it? Take out your cell phone and record it and send it to the ASPCA and they will take it from there.

What more can you do? You tell the person to stop and they tell you to ******* Off! What then, you steal their dog,child,wife? Get into a shouting match with them?Get in a fist fight with them? Take out your CCW badge and sash and order them to stop? The answer is there is nothing you can do short of physically stopping them. As soon as your body touches theirs they have legal grounds to press charges on you for assault and battery and depending on how bad you beat them, law suits and their medical bills await you as well.

Then after you do all that and feel all good about yourself, the officers turn to you and say next time call us that's what we are trained for.

But your right from now on, I'll staple my "S" cape to the back of my CCW permit so I'm ready to play peace maker for the world. Then I can dance around and sing "I got the whole world in my hand!"

 

[Treo]

So that woman getting raped and smashed in the face with a brick knowingly and willingly put herself in that situation? That little kid getting his arm broken by his abusive father does not wish to be saved? Some jerk is kicking a dog down the sidewalk and you aren't even going to suggest he stop? You are seriously telling me that your humanity has degraded to the point that your concern for your own comfort and safety simply can't be inconvenienced for the sake of another? I'm not talking about drawing on someone here, I'm talking about being slightly better than murderers and rapists and people who torture others for their own pleasure. You really can't say so much as stop? You really can't do so much as step in and help someone who can't help themselves? I guess chivalry really is dead. And I guess some random woman on a male dominated forum is the only one who actually has a pair. I'll be darned.

Most of the time any scenario you come across won’t be quite so clear cut. If you are positive enough that you know what’s going on that you are willing to risk your life and your livelihood to get involved in some random person’s drama go right ahead.

But once you get there what are you going to do? Are you trained in detention techniques? Please God don’t tell me you carry hand cuffs.

Is your family prepared to survive w/out your income if you get killed? How about the cost of long term care or permanent disability? Is your family willing to reduce their standard of living because you made a bad judgment call and got sued into bankruptcy?

You’d be surprised how many people rack up tens of thousands of dollars in legal fees defending themselves after a good shoot and you want to put yourself in a position to risk all that for something that’s none of your business anyway?

Let us know how that works out for you

 

[B2Tall]

So that woman getting raped and smashed in the face with a brick knowingly and willingly put herself in that situation? That little kid getting his arm broken by his abusive father does not wish to be saved? Some jerk is kicking a dog down the sidewalk and you aren't even going to suggest he stop? You are seriously telling me that your humanity has degraded to the point that your concern for your own comfort and safety simply can't be inconvenienced for the sake of another? I'm not talking about drawing on someone here, I'm talking about being slightly better than murderers and rapists and people who torture others for their own pleasure. You really can't say so much as stop? You really can't do so much as step in and help someone who can't help themselves? I guess chivalry really is dead. And I guess some random woman on a male dominated forum is the only one who actually has a pair. I'll be darned.

I'm not sure who your post was directed at but since it followed mine (and seems to be a counterpoint to mine) I'll respond as if it was directed at me.

If you read my post carefully I said I'd be willing to help a stranger in "many (but not all) circumstances". As I said numerous times on another thread (Helping a LEO In Trouble), I'm not jumping into a firefight or a situation where there's a drawn gun but I'd help out someway in just about any other situation. 911 is my first option at the very least as is getting the attention of the "perp" to let them know that there's now a witness to their actions. Being a big guy who's had a lot of experience stopping fights, I'd even intervene physically in many cases. So no....I'm not going to stand by and do nothing while a woman gets raped, a kid gets the pulp beat out of him, etc. etc.

 

[localgirl]

First allow me to laugh my ass off! It seems you have a desire to get involved in every conflict you happen to see or walk past, that's your right have a blast at it!!

* Not every. Just some.

So doing what the "professionals" tell you to do is "not having a pair" LOL! How many times do we see the police on the news after an attack stating that we should stay out of it and be a good witness? To many to count!

* You guys are the ones always saying you carry a gun because a cop is too heavy, and that when seconds count, the police are minutes away.

Second don't sit here and try and talk to be about abuse of any kind till you have lived my life, I know what an abusive father and mother is all about. When your mother uses your body as an ash tray for her cigarettes and your father rapes you and your sister, locks you in a room full off broken glass to sleep on. Then you can talk to me about abuse! Spend your whole life in a state system that could give two shits if your alive or dead, foster care family's that are just as bad as your birth mom and dad, then come talk to me. Don't sit behind your computer and preach to me!

* I am not a preacher, I am a doer. I think I've made that pretty obvious. And had I been there when you were a child, I would not have stood by while the people who called themselves your parents abused you. And yes, I would have stolen you. Absolutely and without a doubt. I would have stolen you away from that situation the very first opportunity I had. And if I had the chance to meet these "parents" today, I would lay into them with a verbal barrage.

I see people hitting their dogs all the time, tugging on the choke chains etc. The dog is their property to do with as they wish, the police don't even say anything to them. So what good would it do to get in a pissing match with them over it? Take out your cell phone and record it and send it to the ASPCA and they will take it from there.

* That I would probably do.

What more can you do? You tell the person to stop and they tell you to ******* Off! What then, you steal their dog,child,wife? Get into a shouting match with them?Get in a fist fight with them? Take out your CCW badge and sash and order them to stop? The answer is there is nothing you can do short of physically stopping them. As soon as your body touches theirs they have legal grounds to press charges on you for assault and battery and depending on how bad you beat them, law suits and their medical bills await you as well.

* Well, S, I guess that's where I'm lucky I'm a woman. If some creep who can obviously overpower me wants to cry about how I hurt him, he's going to be hard-pressed and seriously mocked.

Then after you do all that and feel all good about yourself, the officers turn to you and say next time call us that's what we are trained for.

* They can say whatever they want. And I won't feel "good" about myself, or the situation, but I'll feel like I did something. I'll feel like I made a difference. I mean, really, what else can you do in this world? What else are we here for if we can't make it a slightly better place?

But your right from now on, I'll staple my "S" cape to the back of my CCW permit so I'm ready to play peace maker for the world. Then I can dance around and sing "I got the whole world in my hand!"

* I shouldn't have been so harsh. It's your right not to get involved. For the most part, I'm all about saying whatever you like. They're just opinions. They don't really define who you are. The line between action and words is where a man or a woman defines who they are. I guess that's why I reacted so strongly. I know where my heart lies. Our hearts don't have to lie in the same place. I would have protected you then, and I would still protect you now.

 

[localgirl]

I'm not sure who your post was directed at but since it followed mine (and seems to be a counterpoint to mine) I'll respond as if it was directed at me.

If you read my post carefully I said I'd be willing to help a stranger in "many (but not all) circumstances". As I said numerous times on another thread (Helping a LEO In Trouble), I'm not jumping into a firefight or a situation where there's a drawn gun but I'd help out someway in just about any other situation. 911 is my first option at the very least as is getting the attention of the "perp" to let them know that there's now a witness to their actions. Being a big guy who's had a lot of experience stopping fights, I'd even intervene physically in many cases. So no....I'm not going to stand by and do nothing while a woman gets raped, a kid gets the pulp beat out of him, etc. etc.

No. It wasn't you.

 

[localgirl]

Most of the time any scenario you come across won’t be quite so clear cut. If you are positive enough that you know what’s going on that you are willing to risk your life and your livelihood to get involved in some random person’s drama go right ahead.

But once you get there what are you going to do? Are you trained in detention techniques? Please God don’t tell me you carry hand cuffs.

Is your family prepared to survive w/out your income if you get killed? How about the cost of long term care or permanent disability? Is your family willing to reduce their standard of living because you made a bad judgment call and got sued into bankruptcy?

You’d be surprised how many people rack up tens of thousands of dollars in legal fees defending themselves after a good shoot and you want to put yourself in a position to risk all that for something that’s none of your business anyway?

Let us know how that works out for you

I guess because I just give a damn. There was a point in my life when I got tired of seeing people get hurt. When I saw how badly the system failed abused women and kids. Heck, I'm on the brink of bankruptcy now, so I don't think a lawsuit would hurt me too much!

Look, I don't want to be a hero. I don't want to get my ass beat because I stepped into the wrong place at the wrong time. But I can't do nothing. It's just not who I am.

But I also live in a small town, out West. We all help each other. It's just different, I guess.

 

[Iam2Taz]

Shout, Yell, Holler, whatever... After you dial 911! Take a cell phone picture or two for the police. But I won't go just diving in and put my family at risk. I have to believe most crooks are gonna stop when some starts yelling and saying the police are on the way. There are always a few freaks who won't and they in turn will come at you. It is best to be prepared and in a position to defend yourself. If you have just watched someone being beaten as mentioned above and now they are coming after you. I see no reason not to respond accordingly. That includes someone beating a woman, child, or man. Dog? I love dogs. While I will get really upset, call the police, etc. I am not shooting someone over a pet. (Unless it is mine.)

 

[Grognard Gunny]

The bottom line still stays the same..... take care of me and mine.... all others are strictly situational AND at my option.

I spent twenty years of my life "protecting" this Country. At the time I thought it was a pretty noble idea. Seeing as to what we have/are turning into.... I am beginning to wonder if it was worth the effort.

Maybe it was the "ideal" of America I was protecting/chasing. (The reality never lives up to expectations. So much for high ideals.)

At any rate, and for whatever reason, the "White Knight Syndrome" has been quite sufficiently burned out of me. Thank you.

GG

 

[rudiepop]

Lets see ... HMM? .... A woman with "a pair" ... Thats the problem. The woman THINKS she knows how a man is supposed to think and act, and the Sheepdog THINKS he/she is freakin "Johnny Law" or the "White Knight" and proceedes to act like it. A simple matter of identity crisis.

 

[Treo]

The bottom line still stays the same..... take care of me and mine.... all others are strictly situational AND at my option.

I spent twenty years of my life "protecting" this Country. At the time I thought it was a pretty noble idea. Seeing as to what we have/are turning into.... I am beginning to wonder if it was worth the effort.

Maybe it was the "ideal" of America I was protecting/chasing. (The reality never lives up to expectations. So much for high ideals.)

At any rate, and for whatever reason, the "White Knight Syndrome" has been quite sufficiently burned out of me. Thank you.

GG

You were giving America a chance to get it right w/out outside interference. (That's how I look at it)

 

[Grognard Gunny]

You were giving America a chance to get it right w/out outside interference. (That's how I look at it)

Nah. Just turns out that our most "serious" enemies were internally produced. Turns out that Prez Kennedy was clairvoyant! "Ask not what your Country can do.....", etc. Did he see what was coming?

GG