New rules make it easier for ATF to seize guns without due process


eagleeyes

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The Obama administration, apparently by executive decree, has enacted new rules that make it easier for the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms, and Explosives (Link Removed) to seize the guns of citizens without Link Removedof law. A Washington Times report issued on Thursday provides the details.
Under normal circumstances a citizen must be convicted of a crime, or at least charged with a crime, in order for law enforcement to seize their firearms. But the Justice Department granted authority to the ATF to "seize and administratively forfeit property involved in controlled substance abuses."
According to the Times, this gives the federal government the power to seize the guns of citizens even if they are merely suspected of substance abuse. These citizens do not have to be officially charged or arrested.
Due process of law, under the mandate of the U.S. Constitution, requires among other things that citizens have rights that cannot be violated even if they are suspected of crimes. Historically this has meant that citizens who are not charged but are mere suspects cannot be deprived of any of the rights afforded to any other citizen. And even if they are charged with crimes, they still have certain rights that cannot be violated, such as the right to a fair trial, the right to face one's accusers in a court of law, and the right to qualified legal counsel. Any violation of that person's rights after they are charged must be done according to accepted legal process and not on the whims of prosecutors or law enforcement.
But prior to formal charges being issued, the government has operated under the restrictions placed upon it by the Constitution that prevent it from treating citizens as if they are charged prior to actually being charged with crimes.
Gradually these time honored mandates have been under assault as law enforcement has skirted the boundaries of the law by engaging in activity that violates both the spirit and letter of due process. The assault kicked into high gear after the 9/11 terror attacks.
But civil forfeiture of property is a dangerous new step in the assault on due process in that citizens can be deprived of their property, as well as their rights, even if it is never proved that they committed a crime.
The concept behind civil forfeiture of property is simple but baffling. Inanimate objects are placed on trial and treated as persons. And since objects have no rights, prosecutors can simply dispense with constitutional rights in these trials. But the citizen or citizens who are caught in the crosshairs are considered guilty until proven innocent and are burdened with the task of proving their innocence.
In the meantime such citizens are deprived of their Link Removed rights. And all of this comes as the ATF and the Justice Department operate under a heavy cloud of suspicion in the wake of the biggest political scandal in U.S. history -- Link Removed
 

If ATF is on your case, then what did you do or say to get their attention in the first place???
 
Where does it say the accused gets to confront the accuser? I know the accused gets to be confronted with the witnesses against him, but where does it say the former?

Since this is a, guilty until proven innocent, cluster **** again, what happens when you go get your blood drawn and prove you have not been abusing controlled substances? Do they give your firearms back? Or do they pull a Katrina and deny even having them?
 
Welcome to the new Police State! This is simply the government giving itself power that the Constitution strictly forbids. Guess what comes next.
 
A lot of the Bill Of Rights deals with criminals' rights.

If you are a criminal then I suppose you need to worry about these.

Obeying the law is also an aspect of patriotism.

What laws are you breaking that makes you nervous? Gun laws? Dope laws? Which ones?

Smoking a lot of dope induces paranoia. Maybe that's it.
 
Welcome to the new Police State! This is simply the government giving itself power that the Constitution strictly forbids. Guess what comes next.

If Obama gets a second term we will be a police state and he might be a dictator for life. How can so many fools vote for him a second time? For those that say this is not true, do a lot of research on Obama's background and Holder's background. Gun control first then take over the government. Executive orders are just the start. The most corrupt government we have ever had. If he can pack the supreme court, the constitution is dead. I hope I am not proven right.
 
If Obama gets a second term we will be a police state and he might be a dictator for life. How can so many fools vote for him a second time? For those that say this is not true, do a lot of research on Obama's background and Holder's background. Gun control first then take over the government. Executive orders are just the start. The most corrupt government we have ever had. If he can pack the supreme court, the constitution is dead. I hope I am not proven right.

Nixon was the most corrupt government we have ever had. And don't forget he was Reep.

The polling currently stands at 49% for Obama and 45% for Romney.

The debates are next.
 
Where does it say the accused gets to confront the accuser? I know the accused gets to be confronted with the witnesses against him, but where does it say the former?

Since this is a, guilty until proven innocent, cluster **** again, what happens when you go get your blood drawn and prove you have not been abusing controlled substances? Do they give your firearms back? Or do they pull a Katrina and deny even having them?

6th Amendment Confrontation Clause

Confrontation Clause - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Crawford v. Washington - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Sixth Amendment to the United States Constitution - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
 
"Seize and administratively forfeit property involved in controlled substance abuses."

This is not new. many states have laws on the books that allow seizure of any property used in the commission of a crime. Even sting operations on "Cops" for minor drug buys shows the LEO explaining to the buyer that his car is now the property of the state. The laws are called "Civil Forfeiture." I believe the fed law was originally enacted in 1981.

See 18 USC § 981 - Civil forfeiture

Any property, real or personal, which constitutes or is derived from proceeds traceable to a violation of section 215, 471, 472, 473, 474, 476, 477, 478, 479, 480, 481, 485, 486, 487, 488, 501, 502, 510, 542, 545, 656, 657, 842, 844, 1005, 1006, 1007, 1014, 1028, 1029, 1030, 1032, or 1344 of this title or any offense constituting “specified unlawful activity” (as defined in section 1956(c)(7) of this title), or a conspiracy to commit such offense.
 
If ATF is on your case, then what did you do or say to get their attention in the first place???
You complained about high taxes, voiced your opinion against certain political views, voiced of your constitutional rights and religion, patriotism for America and talked about your love of firearms on USACarry. Oh, and you're stock-piling durable foods and have an emergency plan in case of catastrophy. You've just been labeled as dangerous.
 
A lot of the Bill Of Rights deals with criminals' rights.

If you are a criminal then I suppose you need to worry about these.

Obeying the law is also an aspect of patriotism.

What laws are you breaking that makes you nervous? Gun laws? Dope laws? Which ones?

Smoking a lot of dope induces paranoia. Maybe that's it.

Better read a little more closely.

According to the Times, this gives the federal government the power to seize the guns of citizens even if they are merely suspected of substance abuse. These citizens do not have to be officially charged or arrested.

Has nothing to do with "What laws are you breaking that makes you nervous? Gun laws? Dope laws? Which ones?" . If you are even suspected your property is subject to seizure. And I'm not talking about just your gun. Think of the ATFE coming in and confiscating your car and your home because they "think" you might be trafficking or using drugs.
 
Nixon was the most corrupt government we have ever had. And don't forget he was Reep.

Nixon was a self centered dirty politician. No dispute. To say he had a more corrupt government than Obama is laughable. I don't recall him telling the voting public that he was going to have the most transparent government in history and then hide behind every door he could find when he got elected. I don't recall him circumventing congress with multiple executive orders. Being a RINO republican wasn't enough to get Nixon a pass from the main stream media for Water Gate. So be it. Obama gets pass after pass from the same main stream media that would fry a republican president that tried to pull the same stunts.
 
Better read a little more closely.



Has nothing to do with "What laws are you breaking that makes you nervous? Gun laws? Dope laws? Which ones?" . If you are even suspected your property is subject to seizure. And I'm not talking about just your gun. Think of the ATFE coming in and confiscating your car and your home because they "think" you might be trafficking or using drugs.

You are correct. Once due process is gone and this sets the stage for it, all hell is going to break loose. It's the foot in the door. You own guns, you might be dangerous so there goes you property. Storing food and supplies... yep you guessed it your dangerous. The kicker is you will have no legal means to file a "redress of grievances" as guaranteed by the Constitution. Guilty or not your property and possessions are gone.

Ever heard the term "Mission Creep"? Mission creep is the expansion of a project or mission beyond its original goals, often after initial successes. Mission creep is usually considered undesirable due to the dangerous path of each success breeding more ambitious attempts, only stopping when a final, often catastrophic, failure occurs. The term was originally applied exclusively to military operations, but has recently been applied to many different fields. The phrase first appeared in articles concerning the United Nations peacekeeping mission during the Somali Civil War in the Washington Post on April 15, 1993 and in the New York Times on October 10, 1993.

Another example of a non-military use of the term mission creep is in connection with "fusion centers." Fusion centers have been created as a counter-terrorism measure in the wake of 9/11 via the Department of Homeland Security. Essentially, fusion centers involve the collaboration and sharing of information across various levels of government and private sector entities connected with America's critical infrastructures. There are currently, as of 2011, 72 fusion centers in the U.S. A criticism of fusion centers is mission creep in which information being shared begins to include crimes other than terrorism that increases the risk that fusion centers may violate the civil rights of American citizens. Also, this would include the Patriot Act. Just ask the people who were stopped and questioned for having a Ron Paul or an NRA bumper sticker on their car. It's just another heavy handed attempt by the government to gain control.

DHS has now gained control over most of this nations infrastructure critical and non critical via executive orders which bypassed congress. As some people are clear to point out we already had the EO's in place then the question I would ask is why the need to issue them again. Each EO chips away at the Constitution. I'm not saying the government doesn't need a emergency plan but when that plan throws away my rights as an American citizen which were guaranteed under the Constitution then all I have to say is Houston, we have a problem!
 
Nixon was the most corrupt government we have ever had. And don't forget he was Reep.

The polling currently stands at 49% for Obama and 45% for Romney.

The debates are next.

Shoobee: You must be younger than I thought. Do you remember Lyndon Johnson? You can thank him for a lot of the liberal mess we are in right now and for raiding the Medicare fund years ago. Just want you to stay up to date.
 
Shoobee: You must be younger than I thought. Do you remember Lyndon Johnson? You can thank him for a lot of the liberal mess we are in right now and for raiding the Medicare fund years ago. Just want you to stay up to date.

Oh I do remember LBJ. I also remember 12:30 noon on Friday Nov 22, 1963. I was having lunch in my classroom when a girl ran in with the news, and then there was an announcement over the loudspeakers, and school was cancelled for the rest of the day. All the teachers were crying.

LBJ was certainly corrupt, yes. He raided the Social Security funds (not Medicare -- he created Medicare).

But Nixon was far more corrupt. Nixon tried to subvert an election. Nothing is worse than that.

We have not seen the likes of another Nixon since Nixon. The Reeps have learned their lesson and the Demos have not dared to try it.
 
...

DHS has now gained control over most of this nations infrastructure critical and non critical via executive orders which bypassed congress. As some people are clear to point out we already had the EO's in place then the question I would ask is why the need to issue them again. Each EO chips away at the Constitution. I'm not saying the government doesn't need a emergency plan but when that plan throws away my rights as an American citizen which were guaranteed under the Constitution then all I have to say is Houston, we have a problem!

The problem is all in your heads, tea-party-totallers.

We are in a war with rag turbanned arabs spread all across the world because their moosleem faith teaches them to hate infidels and Israelis.

Your candied butz are lucky you are not Japanese-Americans and this is not WW2. The poor Japanese-Americans had to suffer through all sorts of indignities for the war effort, because the Japanese Empire's spying machine was working too well in an open American society.

The moosleem arab's jihad machine is almost as good now.
 
The problem is all in your heads, tea-party-totallers.

We are in a war with rag turbanned arabs spread all across the world because their moosleem faith teaches them to hate infidels and Israelis.

Your candied butz are lucky you are not Japanese-Americans and this is not WW2. The poor Japanese-Americans had to suffer through all sorts of indignities for the war effort, because the Japanese Empire's spying machine was working too well in an open American society.

The moosleem arab's jihad machine is almost as good now.
I'm no tea party supporter. I don't believe in every principal put forth by any political party. I find value in ideas from every party. Too bad each offers a pre-packaged platform.

I have no problem with the incarceration of Japanese Americans in WWII. Japanese Americans were photographing Pearl Harbor in the months before the attack and sending the pictures to their homeland. Even one japanese-American dentist from HI. I have no problem with the use of an atomic weapon in Japan. Without such my father, a naval officer in WWII, might not have been here to have a son. I might not be here today. These people committed some of worst atrocities in human history. YOU have people like MY father to thank that YOU'RE not speaking Japanese. If you want to learn a great deal about life, talk to a WWII veteran if you can. There is a world of wisdom in that generation. We should all take a lesson in values from them.

And now I have no problem with military tribunals for non-citizen terrorists. I have no problem with pre-emptive strikes. I have no problem with waterboarding. I have no problem with Guantanamo. I have no problem with defending the Israeli people. I will freely contribute to such. I DO have a problem being taxed so people can get a new HD TV for watching Jerry Springer.
 
But Nixon was far more corrupt. Nixon tried to subvert an election. Nothing is worse than that.

We have not seen the likes of another Nixon since Nixon. The Reeps have learned their lesson and the Demos have not dared to try it.
This wasn't about a political party or some great conspiracy. It was purely a manipulative, powerful, elitist man and his faithful followers. The party didn't do anything wrong. A few men of power did.

There is a framed sign on my office wall which is a quote from Charles "Chuck" Colson, special counsel to Nixon. It says;

"When you've got them by the balls, their hearts and minds will follow."

Probably the most important belief of any powerful person, business or otherwise.
 

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