Well, if you have a constitutional right to carry then you don't need a federal law. Which is it? does the 2A give you the right to carry in every state, or do you need a federal law to afford you that right?
National Right to Carry Reciprocity Act of 2012” introduced in U.S. Senate
- Thread starter Bttbbob
- Start date
Well, if you have a constitutional right to carry then you don't need a federal law. Which is it? does the 2A give you the right to carry in every state, or do you need a federal law to afford you that right?
Axeanda45
Banned
Well, I didnt think I would ever agree with nogods, but what a post! Awesome way to tell the truth...
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Bikenut
Guest
A concealed carry freaking PERMIT bill passed off as the "National Right to Carry Bill"????
A ^%&* PERMIT is not the right but is the infringement! Why can't folks understand that? And why would folks all line up and sing the praises of yet another law that only strengthens the freaking "permit" system?
Now... as for letting the camel called the Federal Government getting it's nose under the tent so that it can control the "permit" process... this wonderful LIE! of a bill is the perfect vehicle for that.
Sure the present language doesn't give the Feds any power to control.... but simply having the law itself means the Feds have an interest in controlling.... and the law is a perfect opportunity to build on that avenue to institute control.
Does anyone think the Feds won't decide that since there is a Federal law requiring reciprocity there should also be a Federal standard to ensure uniform training requirements? uniform age requirements? uniform criteria for qualifying? uniform... what the hell ever they want?
I am amazed that otherwise intelligent gun owners could fall for this turd painted to look like a carrot.
A ^%&* PERMIT is not the right but is the infringement! Why can't folks understand that? And why would folks all line up and sing the praises of yet another law that only strengthens the freaking "permit" system?
Now... as for letting the camel called the Federal Government getting it's nose under the tent so that it can control the "permit" process... this wonderful LIE! of a bill is the perfect vehicle for that.
Sure the present language doesn't give the Feds any power to control.... but simply having the law itself means the Feds have an interest in controlling.... and the law is a perfect opportunity to build on that avenue to institute control.
Does anyone think the Feds won't decide that since there is a Federal law requiring reciprocity there should also be a Federal standard to ensure uniform training requirements? uniform age requirements? uniform criteria for qualifying? uniform... what the hell ever they want?
I am amazed that otherwise intelligent gun owners could fall for this turd painted to look like a carrot.
Bttbbob
New member
Bikenut,
I agree with you to some extent. But you are missing something here. We already have infringement. And you can be locked up in other states for carrying. Why would you not agree with a bill that has a chance to get passed vs waiting forever to get no restrictions. For me, I'm for it. It will give me the legal right to carry in places I cant now. I would do it just to make Bloomberg and his ILK CHIT themselves.
I agree with you to some extent. But you are missing something here. We already have infringement. And you can be locked up in other states for carrying. Why would you not agree with a bill that has a chance to get passed vs waiting forever to get no restrictions. For me, I'm for it. It will give me the legal right to carry in places I cant now. I would do it just to make Bloomberg and his ILK CHIT themselves.
Axeanda45
Banned
That post is a perfect example of an UTTER FAILURE of "logic"
Where in the heck do you get a "legal right" out of a permit??? Your argument contradicts itself.....
The 2nd Amendment is our "Permit", PERIOD.... ANYTHING else is an infringement.
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Bikenut
Guest
I'm not willing to support strengthening the infringement of a permit system in exchange for the convenience.. and that is all this bill offers is convenience... of not having to get carry permits from different States. The bill does NOT recognize the legal "right" to carry... it only offers the few who travel the convenience of having their CC freaking blankety blank infringment "permit" recognized where ever they might want to travel.
The larger picture is the message being sent to our lawmakers that gun owners complain they want the right to carry but if lawmakers paint up the turd of infringement called a permit system to look like a carrot of convenience gun owners will stampede to support it all the while believing that painted up turd of an infringement called a permit is somehow the legal right to carry.
The even larger picture is quite simple... a Federal law that requires States to recognize each others permit screams for additional laws that create a standardized permit system in order for everything to be the same... overseen by... the Feds who passed the law requiring permits be recognized.
Now... fast forward a few years..... the Feds have created a standardized permit system so it is "fair" to all the States because the States complained some State permit systems were more lax than others. But now the Feds actually can regulate the permit system... they are now in charge of it with Federal standards that must be met in order to qualify for a permit. Standards that the Feds can change at any time for any reason. And standards you can bet will lean towards the more restrictive than the more lax!!!!
Am I being paranoid? Or am I merely looking into the future? Those who are willing to sell the right to bear arms for the convenience of having their "permit" recognized will say I'm paranoid. Those who understand how the government works might have a different view.
But what annoys me to no end is to realize that people have swallowed the spin of how wonderful this bill is when I hear folks defend this bill with statements like... "This is a good bill because my right to carry doesn't end at a State line." But DUH!!! people!!!! a freaking "permit" isn't the right to carry!!!!!!
This bill is a bad idea. Some states DO NOT MANDATE ANY: TRAINING TESTING or MANDATORY BACKGROUND CHECK, while others require eight (8) hours training/testing along with mandatory background checks. So if the bill becomes law, untrained, individuals who do not even know basic handgun safety can carry in states that previously required equivalent training and testing before granting reciprocity.The states that have high standards for training, testing and background checks already have reciprocity.
Therefore, why risk having the some federal anti-second amendment group or individual, who happens to gain power, being in a position to restrict or essentially remove our gun rights.
I say, "LEAVE WELL ENOUGH ALONE!!!". Let the states that aren't granted reciprocity, do what is required to gain it.
Therefore, why risk having the some federal anti-second amendment group or individual, who happens to gain power, being in a position to restrict or essentially remove our gun rights.
I say, "LEAVE WELL ENOUGH ALONE!!!". Let the states that aren't granted reciprocity, do what is required to gain it.
mspt_99
New member
Hey don't blame me for the screwed up system that we now carry under. You are forgetting the duality of this country's laws: 2A give us the right plain and simple yet the states were allowed to take some of that away. this Act may be a step in the right direction of repealing the bastardization of our constitution that the states were allowed to do via people's apathy, stupidity and who knows what else. that is my explaination of the confusion that those before us created. with 2A this shouldn't even be a conversation we are having and yet here we are, 2012 living in a country with 2A and yet many states have chipped away at that fundamental right in some manner.
So the question really is can we afford to live under the current hypocrisy of 2A versus the states or do we move forwards with an Act that may bring the country more in line with the constitution?
mspt
mspt_99
New member
you are right except your idea that there will ever be a "complete eradication of ALL firearms laws within our culture today." that is completely illogical. this Acts infringment in my mind infringes less than the current system. It rolls back some of the infrigement we now face. Are their problems with it, sure, they are unknow and untested. there are clear benefits now. what you want is guaranteed to never happen in our culture. if we aren't like canada in 25 years it will be a minor miracle.
mspt_99
New member
so you are saying this bill is "Bad" because the stringent standards of some states, which is an infringment of our rights, is preferable to states without such infringments and simply allow the right to carry based on the constitution?? OKEE. that doesnt' make sense. others on this thread don't like it because our 2A rights should give us the freedom to carry end of story which I would agree with but you are advocating that the law is bad because states need to make their citizen's "do what is required to gain it." that is messed up.
mspt
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Bikenut
Guest
I'm confused... please explain how a system of "permits"... and you do know that any "permit" is the infringement mentioned in "shall not be infringed"?.... brings the country more in line with the Constitution when the 2nd Amendment of the Constitution says?
"shall NOT be infringed"?
When it is an infringement from the beginning then ... there is NO way it could be part of the Constitution. And if it isn't part of the Constitution exactly how would implementing an infringement upon the Constitution bring the country in line with the Constitution?
I can't believe otherwise intelligent folks who understand that "shall not be infringed" means there is an inherent right to bear arms.... are sucking up to the very entity, the government, that wants to turn the right to bear arms into the privilege only given to those who qualify for the permission slip called a "permit" begging it to regulate a permit system that is the very epitome of "infringed". And actually thinking that it would be a good thing!!!!!!!
The true hypocrisy is folks thinking perpetuating and strengthening the permit system is somehow furthering the right to bear arms when if a permit is needed it is not a right... but is a privilege controlled by whoever is in charge of handing out permission.
ANY "permit" system, whether it be controlled by the individual States or by the Feds, is an infringement upon the inherent right to bear arms each and every person is born with. And this turd of a bill is not furthering the right to bear arms but is strengthening the power of the government to infringe upon the right! and it is being sold as if the "permit" is the "right"... and people are eating it up.
"H.R.822: National Right-to-Carry Reciprocity Act"
I find it ... disturbing ... that folks can equate the "right to bear arms" to a "concealed carry permit" as if the two are the same and come up with justifications to elevate the "permit" above the "right".
Beware of turds painted to look like carrots......................
mspt_99
New member
please read my posts on this topic instead of continuing to rant. I keep agreeing with you folks who say any permit system is an infringment. however WE ARE NOT GOING TO BE ABLE TO DO AWAY with that system. it is here, it will stay. end of story. you are confusing what should be and what you want with what is and what shall be.
we have been infringed. what we have NOW is a turd painted like a carrot. the government, both fed and state have taken our inherent right and already turned it into a privilege
I agree, we have the right to bear arms period, I have never equated that with the permit process. I wish we had what you advocate for, 2A rights with no permit process, no state interference etc.
the states have infringed on our rights. if a fed Act may roll back some of that infringment that could be a good thing. do I trust the fed, no, do they do some things correctly at times yes and this may be one of them.
mspt
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Bikenut
Guest
What I am trying to point out... yes, we already have the States infringing... so what would be so much better if the Feds do the infringing? How does changing Masters in control of who is given permission to bear arms help further the right to bear arms?
Does anyone really think this bill will roll back any infringements? Really? If it passes the very next thing will be the need to standardize all the different State permit systems into one system of standards. Guess who will be the one to have the power to implement such a system? Why the Feds who implemented the requirement for the States to recognize all permits of course.
And for some strange reason I suspect any standardized permit system will definitely mimic the standards used by the State with the most restrictive requirements.
And I will continue to rant about this until folks understand that this turd of a bill is NOT a good thing... contrary to how it is being portrayed as some fantastic gain for the right to bear arms it really is merely a change of Masters in charge of controlling who has "permission" to bear arms.
Axeanda45
Banned
Please, mr enlightenment, show me where I EVER SAID OR HAD AN IDEA THAT THERE IS OR WILL BE A COMPLETE ERADICATION OF FIREARMS LAWS.......
STOP putting words into others posts that ARENT THERE!!!
Making arguments about something that was not said does not paint a very good picture of your intelligence...
My stating that I would support such legislation does not make it magically appear out of thin air...........
Axeanda45
Banned
mspt_99,
I can see you have actually thought this out some, and I applaud your efforts. But you have failed to think "deep" enough.... You only seem able to get to the part where "if this passes, I can carry in nearly all states with only one permit" and you seem perfectly happy stopping there, but as Bikenut and I have stated, that isnt the COMPLETE truth of what this bill represents, and even though it will, admittedly be sort of better for us (CCW'ers) in the beginning, it opens up an entire new can of worms we DO NOT NEED OPENED.... The RIGHT to bear arms has been trampled into the dirt, and all this is going to do is add more dirt on top of it...
UNTIL more of us REFUSE to follow these "fake" (UnConstitutional) "laws", and just do what the Constitution prohibits the Government from interfering with instead of getting permission slips, we will continue to have further infringements, because people like you settle for it.... Heck, some of you even fight for it(further infringements like this) and call your CONgress idiots and tell them to vote for it...
How are we EVER going to win if those like you keep throwing wrenches in the gears?????
I can see you have actually thought this out some, and I applaud your efforts. But you have failed to think "deep" enough.... You only seem able to get to the part where "if this passes, I can carry in nearly all states with only one permit" and you seem perfectly happy stopping there, but as Bikenut and I have stated, that isnt the COMPLETE truth of what this bill represents, and even though it will, admittedly be sort of better for us (CCW'ers) in the beginning, it opens up an entire new can of worms we DO NOT NEED OPENED.... The RIGHT to bear arms has been trampled into the dirt, and all this is going to do is add more dirt on top of it...
UNTIL more of us REFUSE to follow these "fake" (UnConstitutional) "laws", and just do what the Constitution prohibits the Government from interfering with instead of getting permission slips, we will continue to have further infringements, because people like you settle for it.... Heck, some of you even fight for it(further infringements like this) and call your CONgress idiots and tell them to vote for it...
How are we EVER going to win if those like you keep throwing wrenches in the gears?????
Constutitional Carry is great. BUT to those who want to wait for it to pass everywhere, you will be long gone before or IF it passes. Oh try driving into New York or California and if you are pulled over by the cops use the "Constutitional Carry" arguement with the cop and see how long it will be before YOU ARE IN JAIL.
Then why not a federal law that prohibits states from prohibiting open and concealed carry of all firearms, period. Why bother with the gyroscopic type federal law that requires state A to recognize state B's permits? Why not just enact a law requiring state A and state B to allow residents and non-residents who aren't otherwise prohibited by federal law to carry firearms either open or concealed?
It can't be politics, because strict gun control states aren't going to be persuaded to vote for the bill - they want to keep denying most of their citizens the ability to carry firearms and they aren't going to be happy about having to let all non-residents carry just because they allow a few residents to carry.
Axeanda45
Banned
Speak for yourself easterbunny..... I have not ONCE complained of such....and I have carried in every single of the lower 48 States and in MOST of them it was "against the law" and I am not in jail for it..... If you only want to carry where your "Betters" let you, fine... Just stop fighting for MORE infringements, WE DONT NEED ANY MORE.....
Now you know Im not the Easterbunny, so cut out the namecalling. National Reciprocity is all about EASING restrictions in carrying a firearm, not more infringements. Try reading the bill if you can. Oh again if your so sure of yourself tell a cop in a state that has a law that requires a permit to carry that you are carrying a gun without a permit. Im just being realistic, its not a perfect world.
