SR9
New member
We've been through this before, or is you mind going lame also.
Much ado about the Pope
- Thread starter Ringo
- Start date
We've been through this before, or is you mind going lame also.
Haha, cut the BS. You're still having trouble following the conversation it seems. I'm not dipping or weaving any more than you are. I can't prove your god doesn't exist. I never said that it doesn't exist. I'm simply addressing the logically flawed belief that ones inability to prove X doesn't exist supports a claim that X does exist.
I can't prove your god doesn't exist. I've never claimed that it doesn't exist. That has no bearing on whether it actually exists, just like how your inability to prove unicorns don't exist doesn't mean that they do.
What you're doing here is relying on a straw man fallacy. You're arguing against a point that I did not make in order to make yourself feel right. It's a dishonest and unproductive way to have a conversation. I politely ask you to pay attention to what is posted and take the time to address the claims that are actually made, not argue against statements that I have not made.
Are you asking me?
Farmhood
New member
Why can't you answer a simple question?
Poisonous mushrooms are dangerous to dogs....
Farmhood
New member
Is it some form of disability, or are you simply opposed to participating in mature, constructive conversation in which people share original thoughts in an honest manner?
Farmhood
New member
The way you frame your statements reveal your intent.
The question was asked and not answered only by another question so I just typed. ?
sinful nature is always hostile to God....
Your persistent refusal to participate in a constructive conversation reveals that you are either unable or unwilling to do so. I'm just trying to figure out why that is.
I asked you a simple and straightforward question. You have yet to answer it. Why is that? A simple "yes" or "no" would answer that question.
Let's have a mature and meaningful discussion. Stop with the silliness and dodging. Just answer the question, buddy.
Anyway, if the question WAS directed towards me: I hang with Christians for the same reasons I hang with Jews, or Muslims, or atheists, or Jets fans, or blonde people, or short folks, or people who drive Fords, or countless other people. I work with some of them, or I find them to be an interesting person, or we have a good time together, or they're a friend of someone I'm hanging out with, or circumstances beyond our control lead to us being forced to interact.
There is no one single reason that I associate with the people that I do.
BluesStringer
Les Brers
I'm not a Catholic. Nor am I a Catholic-basher. I know for a fact that there are righteous Catholics out there with whom our respective understandings of Scripture would vary on some small and not-so-small doctrinal issues. I know for a fact that such varied understandings exist between me and other non-Catholics, but nonetheless faithful, Christians too. For me, when considering an individual, the denomination or sect of Christianity that they grew up with and/or identify themselves as, has not been a barrier to finding meaningful mutual understanding.
The Pope is not an "individual" in the context of the above. He represents the institution of the Catholic church, which is earthly, not divine, not alive, not destined to share space with the individuals who go to Heaven or Hell when all is said and done. This particular Pope does seem rather more far removed from traditional Catholic doctrine than his predecessors, at least as far as my limited understanding of that goes, but as an institution, the Catholic church has been deviating from its own supposedly divinely-inspired doctrines for decades now.
One commentator whom I read often, respect greatly, and admire the faithfulness with which she writes and lives, is Ann Barnhardt. She was a voluntary entrant into Catholicism as I understand it. Not sure if she grew up that way or not, and if she did, whether or not the "voluntary" nature of her choice of following is something that all Catholics must complete, but even with her extremely well-reasoned and vociferous criticisms and exposes' of this and other Popes since I've been reading her, she remains committed to the same Catholic doctrine that she voluntarily submitted to as a very young person, perhaps younger than adolescence, I'm not sure.
Anyway, my point in posting was to wonder aloud if either the Catholics or non-Catholic evangelicals reading this have an opinion about the evil or potential righteousness of a Catholic such as Ann Barnhardt, who has unquestionably Link Removed from Church doctrine within individual Popes, lower priests within the hierarchy, and the overall institution itself, but still remains faithful to the Church? That one link is but the latest among many of essays by Ann being highly critical of both individuals and the institution of the Catholic church itself, but it's a great read, and seemed timely to this thread (the off-topic-pullers who always intrude upon meaningful discussions between the faithful notwithstanding), so there ya go.
Blues
The Pope is not an "individual" in the context of the above. He represents the institution of the Catholic church, which is earthly, not divine, not alive, not destined to share space with the individuals who go to Heaven or Hell when all is said and done. This particular Pope does seem rather more far removed from traditional Catholic doctrine than his predecessors, at least as far as my limited understanding of that goes, but as an institution, the Catholic church has been deviating from its own supposedly divinely-inspired doctrines for decades now.
One commentator whom I read often, respect greatly, and admire the faithfulness with which she writes and lives, is Ann Barnhardt. She was a voluntary entrant into Catholicism as I understand it. Not sure if she grew up that way or not, and if she did, whether or not the "voluntary" nature of her choice of following is something that all Catholics must complete, but even with her extremely well-reasoned and vociferous criticisms and exposes' of this and other Popes since I've been reading her, she remains committed to the same Catholic doctrine that she voluntarily submitted to as a very young person, perhaps younger than adolescence, I'm not sure.
Anyway, my point in posting was to wonder aloud if either the Catholics or non-Catholic evangelicals reading this have an opinion about the evil or potential righteousness of a Catholic such as Ann Barnhardt, who has unquestionably Link Removed from Church doctrine within individual Popes, lower priests within the hierarchy, and the overall institution itself, but still remains faithful to the Church? That one link is but the latest among many of essays by Ann being highly critical of both individuals and the institution of the Catholic church itself, but it's a great read, and seemed timely to this thread (the off-topic-pullers who always intrude upon meaningful discussions between the faithful notwithstanding), so there ya go.
Blues
Oldgrunt
Well-known member
Blues: I am a Catholic and have said so on here many times. I haven't entered into the criticisms concerning the Pope because I would not be able to explain it properly and to the personal satisfaction of all. I have been a member of the Catholic Church for many, many years and there isn't a criticism of the Church that I haven't heard before. As a matter of fact, I can probably tell all many things they have missed over the years but that would only add fuel to their fires.
I am not a staunch supporter of the church hierarchy in several areas of our doctrine because, in order for something to become doctrine of morals and dogma, the Pope, who is considered infallible on the subjects, must speak ex cathedra, or from the throne.
Only then does it become a true tenet of the church. Over the years, many things have been inserted into the religion, which I question as being necessary, but nothing to start another Lutheran schism over. Things have a way of working themselves out over time.
I look at the Pope similarly to how protestants of different denominations look at their district bishops. Only he has a much larger bishopric or episcopate, a much larger jurisdictional area. The Pope is considered to be the successor to St. Peter, upon whom our church was founded by Christ. Consequently, he is held in high esteem by all Catholics. He does not take the place of Christ and he is not worshiped, as some would think. He could be likened to the CEO of a world-wide organization.
The Pope's visit to the US was well received, as it should have been considering his position. Many people argue against the Pope and his meaning to Catholics and to the world. There are a lot of prophecies concerning this Pope in connection with the "end times" and a controversial role he will play. I have read many, many articles condemning the Pope by various Protestant ministers and organizations but I have found most of the arguments to be from a lack of knowledge concerning the Pope and the Church in particular. There is one main tenet our church holds and which is true for all Christians. The Apostle's Creed. As long as all have accepted Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior and follow the Creed, everything is fine. No need to argue about denominational practices that don't particularly sit well with each of us. If the other person has essentially the same beliefs as others who profess to be Christian, don't get hung up on the small stuff. After all, the Bible, in Phil 2:12 says, "Therefore my beloved, as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.
Concerning your last question, about remaining faithful to the church, yes, I can remain faithful to God by remaining "in the church" because there is so much in it that brings me closer to God. Like you, and many others, I am absolutely against what has happened to the church and the sins of the clergy over the years. I am upset about some of the stances that the current Pope is taking in violation of tenets which have stood for millenia but I will not leave the church because of him and them. There are still good people in the pews and who violently disagree with what is happening but we will not give up on God. On the Pope......eh, who knows? When the prophecies concerning him being the Anti-Pope become more apparent, the Lord, Himself will settle that problem for us. In the meantime, all we can do is to continue praying and seeking guidance.
I am not a staunch supporter of the church hierarchy in several areas of our doctrine because, in order for something to become doctrine of morals and dogma, the Pope, who is considered infallible on the subjects, must speak ex cathedra, or from the throne.
Only then does it become a true tenet of the church. Over the years, many things have been inserted into the religion, which I question as being necessary, but nothing to start another Lutheran schism over. Things have a way of working themselves out over time.
I look at the Pope similarly to how protestants of different denominations look at their district bishops. Only he has a much larger bishopric or episcopate, a much larger jurisdictional area. The Pope is considered to be the successor to St. Peter, upon whom our church was founded by Christ. Consequently, he is held in high esteem by all Catholics. He does not take the place of Christ and he is not worshiped, as some would think. He could be likened to the CEO of a world-wide organization.
The Pope's visit to the US was well received, as it should have been considering his position. Many people argue against the Pope and his meaning to Catholics and to the world. There are a lot of prophecies concerning this Pope in connection with the "end times" and a controversial role he will play. I have read many, many articles condemning the Pope by various Protestant ministers and organizations but I have found most of the arguments to be from a lack of knowledge concerning the Pope and the Church in particular. There is one main tenet our church holds and which is true for all Christians. The Apostle's Creed. As long as all have accepted Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior and follow the Creed, everything is fine. No need to argue about denominational practices that don't particularly sit well with each of us. If the other person has essentially the same beliefs as others who profess to be Christian, don't get hung up on the small stuff. After all, the Bible, in Phil 2:12 says, "Therefore my beloved, as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.
Concerning your last question, about remaining faithful to the church, yes, I can remain faithful to God by remaining "in the church" because there is so much in it that brings me closer to God. Like you, and many others, I am absolutely against what has happened to the church and the sins of the clergy over the years. I am upset about some of the stances that the current Pope is taking in violation of tenets which have stood for millenia but I will not leave the church because of him and them. There are still good people in the pews and who violently disagree with what is happening but we will not give up on God. On the Pope......eh, who knows? When the prophecies concerning him being the Anti-Pope become more apparent, the Lord, Himself will settle that problem for us. In the meantime, all we can do is to continue praying and seeking guidance.
Ringo
A WATCHMAN
Link Removed
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"But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel contrary to the one we preached to you, let him be condemned to hell!" (Galatians 1:8)
SR9
New member
I realize the Pope in the Catholic religion relates to Jesus appointing Peter to be the leader after He was crucified . But he has never appointed a Pope as such. Popes are elected by cardinals (technically a political position, much like a President). The Pope is not recoqnized by any other religion. To me he has no importance or authority. I don't get excited if he comes to America or any place else.
The Pope has no authority from God to change or alter any of God's rules or laws, he has not authority over God.
In the other Christian religions we have God the Holy Father, and need no Pope to intercede on our behalf. We pray directly to God, Jesus and, the Holy Ghost Trinity. Many see the Pope as a "false prophet" and some even see him as possibly the Anti-Christ. Saint Benedict's prophesy says this Pope will be the last pope before "The End". Time will tell.
The Pope has no authority from God to change or alter any of God's rules or laws, he has not authority over God.
In the other Christian religions we have God the Holy Father, and need no Pope to intercede on our behalf. We pray directly to God, Jesus and, the Holy Ghost Trinity. Many see the Pope as a "false prophet" and some even see him as possibly the Anti-Christ. Saint Benedict's prophesy says this Pope will be the last pope before "The End". Time will tell.
