Mental Illness / Mental Disability


I don't know about saving the world, but helping someone else in need isn't a bad thing. We all need something from other people at some point, big or small. It's nice to know someone is willing to lend that hand and not just kick it out of the way only thinking of themselves "and their loved ones" instead.

kumbaya brother, go forth and save the all the unfortunates!
in the context of the scenario presented, I am not going to try and discern what someone's issues are and I am not the mean ogre you are trying to turn me into, merry christmas.
 

Childish response, Adolph. If I knew of a retail outlet for maturity, I'd refer you to it. I'd bet that you're not the poster child for this forum that you envision yourself to be. A couple of PM's I've received in response to your earlier post, bears that out. What goes around usually comes around. Wait for it, you'll know it.

chuck u and all those who pm'd you as well, be seeing ya troll boy
 
kumbaya brother, go forth and save the all the unfortunates!
in the context of the scenario presented, I am not going to try and discern what someone's issues are and I am not the mean ogre you are trying to turn me into, merry christmas.

If you feel like you were being made out to be a bad guy, that sounds like your own insecurities coming out. I was simply pointing out the absurdity of your exaggeration. Liberals love to accuse Conservatives of not caring about anyone but themselves because they refuse to support state-sponsored redistribution of wealth at gun-point. The fact is, the vast majority of people on an individual basis are quite generous and willing to help those less fortunate, but how they wish to do so varies greatly. Liberals feel they have a moral superiority and a right to force others to their way of thinking through legislation and brute force, taking from the successful and fortunate, and giving to the less fortunate, and unfortunately, to the lazy as well.
Anyway, I can't make you look like anything you don't make yourself out to appear. I'm not trying to do so, either. I opened the thead to the most recent posts, and responded to the on-going conversation with a fairly rational, and mild statement IMHO. Sorry if it upset you. In the OP's situation, I'd probably just leave the person be too, unless they appeared to be in some distress, such as a diabetic with low blood sugar, an epileptic, etc.. but I have a fair amount of medical knowledge and training, so I know what I'm looking for with that type of situation. Not everyone would.
 
I agree, evade and avoid is the best tactic to employ, saving the world is best left to the self appointed pros

Not so sure what "self appointed pros" is suppose to mean. Would I think about mentioning the situation to a store manager or mall cop or even 911?--probably--but I am not about to become a "mental professional" about something I know nothing about, nor am I going to go out of my way to somehow "reason" with someone who appears delusional and out of touch with their surroundings. At the extreme, the alter ego rule in SC would allow me to act in a very confrontational manner, including use of firearm, if this mentally ill person decided to attack someone else and put them in imminent danger.
 
Not so sure what "self appointed pros" is suppose to mean. Would I think about mentioning the situation to a store manager or mall cop or even 911?--probably--but I am not about to become a "mental professional" about something I know nothing about, nor am I going to go out of my way to somehow "reason" with someone who appears delusional and out of touch with their surroundings. At the extreme, the alter ego rule in SC would allow me to act in a very confrontational manner, including use of firearm, if this mentally ill person decided to attack someone else and put them in imminent danger.

it was a reference to some of the "self appointed pros" who claimed that I am an ogre because I would rather remain in a defensive posture rather than trying to aid the person who is acting in a odd manner.
 
Today I was in a store looking at some books with my fiancee and I noticed a woman acting strangely with one of the other customers. She kept going up to customers and each one became uncomfortable and removed themselves from the conversation. Because of the distance I couldn't hear what was being said but my alarms were going off.

Eventually she approached me and was looking at me but never said anything. I ignored her and she never spoke to me because I didn't acknowledge her. Thing is, my fiancee and I both work in the mental health field and realized that this woman was mentally disabled. However, before I realized this she put me on edge and I began to mentally prepare myself for all scenarios (I was CC'ing at the time). I noticed that another customer became very upset with this lady and began to raise his voice.

The topic I'd like to put out there is this: how do you react to people and maintain your composure until you can determine whether or not someone is a threat or has a disability. This lady had no ill intentions, but watching people approach you and talk to you always sets off alarm bells. Especially for people that can't recognize mental illnesses and disabilities as easily as we can, it seems like they might potentially kill or injure someone over a misunderstanding.

I know this is a somewhat frequent problem with police officers who kill people with mental disabilities because they haven't been trained to recognize and handle people in that situation.

Thoughts?
I think you handled it just fine. You practiced awareness, deterrence and avoidance without firing-up the person. You were ready for an adverse reaction. Very good.
 
Respectfully, sir, I think it is sound advice.

How many folks have you interacted with who are affected by diminished mental capacity? I spent over a decade working with Veterans in a psych hospital. Perhaps you would also advocate abandoning all those who fail to meet your "safe to interact with" criteria.

I won't even begin to touch the massive issue of mental health issues in the US... yet you posted your opinion in this thread. It's your opinion, but I'll never share it. By all means, you feel free to flee in fear, from a person who might actually need some help or compassion.

My opinion says that you might be better to stick with topics you know something about.

Oh... Merry Christmas
I think what AVP has been saying is leave mental health to the professionals. We aren't embracing or abandoning anyone... they're not our problem. Lay persons aren't too good at determining what type of mental illness will result in violence. And as we see regularly, MH professionals miss bright red blinking lights on some of our most dangerous people. best to avoid interaction.
 
Today I was in a store looking at some books with my fiancee and I noticed a woman acting strangely with one of the other customers. She kept going up to customers and each one became uncomfortable and removed themselves from the conversation. Because of the distance I couldn't hear what was being said but my alarms were going off.

Eventually she approached me and was looking at me but never said anything. I ignored her and she never spoke to me because I didn't acknowledge her. Thing is, my fiancee and I both work in the mental health field and realized that this woman was mentally disabled. However, before I realized this she put me on edge and I began to mentally prepare myself for all scenarios (I was CC'ing at the time). I noticed that another customer became very upset with this lady and began to raise his voice.

The topic I'd like to put out there is this: how do you react to people and maintain your composure until you can determine whether or not someone is a threat or has a disability. This lady had no ill intentions, but watching people approach you and talk to you always sets off alarm bells. Especially for people that can't recognize mental illnesses and disabilities as easily as we can, it seems like they might potentially kill or injure someone over a misunderstanding.

I know this is a somewhat frequent problem with police officers who kill people with mental disabilities because they haven't been trained to recognize and handle people in that situation.

Thoughts?

There are some that have mental deficiencies or disabilities that want no part of being helped and there are others that have a network of help. The thing is, the average person is never going to know which person they are encountering. Add to this, the average person will not know whether they are a danger to themselves, a danger to others, or no danger at all, but merely a nuisance. You bring up that you and your wife are in the mental health field and are able to recognize mental problems when you see them, but even you were highly cognizant of this woman and had your "alarm bells" going off. However, when she approached you, you claim you understood that she was mentally disabled enough to know how to react to her particular brand of mental disability.

It has then been hashed around that some are akin to Adolph Hitler because they would choose to not "help" this woman. No where in your description did it sound like she needed help. I personally would have ignored her unless she got to a point where I could not. Then I would have alerted the store manager or owner to deal with the problem in his store. No where did you intimate that she was violent or had violent tendencies, so anything to do with my firearm is a moot point.

As far as your assertions that these people get killed by police officers because they aren't trained enough in the mental field, to me, is a crock. You and your wife are trained, yet are you really sure she was never going to have a violent episode? I mean really sure? You didn't mention what she suffered from. I've known several who have mental disabilities and several that have behavioral disorders. Thing is, one really never is certain if they will have an episode. So your claim that cops aren't trained enough in the mental field, I believe is erroneous. If someone who is not in their right mind is becoming violent, then the time for group therapy sessions and interventions is over. The officers have to act at that point. If you have a specific case of a police officer shooting someone with a mental disability, then I'm all for debating that case with you, but to have a broad stroke pen to say that cops frequently kill mentally ill people because they don't have training is not a fair assessment. Please show us your data to make such a claim.

I believe if I were in your situation, I too would have ignored her, not because of special training, but because I've learned not to bait people in public. Use common sense. Be nice. If they are strange or bothersome, ignore them and be nice. It really is not my duty, nor responsibility to assess their mental state, figure out whether they need help or not, find out whether they have misplaced their medical care person, etc. If it becomes absolutely obvious that the person needs help, I'm sure I would assist. But if the person is just staring at people and making strange conversation that makes some people uncomfortable, really what is there to do for them?
 
To all of you guys who doubt my statement about LEOs needlessly killing or injuring people with disabilities just do a simple Google search. If you can find this forum then you are skilled enough to find a myriad of examples.

If you read my OP you'll notice that I blamed these incidences on a lack of training, it's not (usually) the officer's fault because they aren't trained for it. For example, take someone who has Autism. They typically don't like being touched, frequently have language deficiencies, and can't read social cues such as tone of voice. The officer sees someone who refuses to follow his orders and reacts violently when touched. The officer's reaction would be in accordance with his training. However, if he had been trained to recognize that the man in this example was exhibiting autistic traits then he could have handled the situation differently, perhaps by containing the situation without touching the man with autism.

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To all of you guys who doubt my statement about LEOs needlessly killing or injuring people with disabilities just do a simple Google search. If you can find this forum then you are skilled enough to find a myriad of examples.

If you read my OP you'll notice that I blamed these incidences on a lack of training, it's not (usually) the officer's fault because they aren't trained for it. For example, take someone who has Autism. They typically don't like being touched, frequently have language deficiencies, and can't read social cues such as tone of voice. The officer sees someone who refuses to follow his orders and reacts violently when touched. The officer's reaction would be in accordance with his training. However, if he had been trained to recognize that the man in this example was exhibiting autistic traits then he could have handled the situation differently, perhaps by containing the situation without touching the man with autism.

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Sir, YOU made the claim that officers frequently kill mentally ill people. You have provided no evidence of such a thing. I've even asked you to bring up any one specific case so we could debate it. You have failed to do this. It is YOUR responsibility to back up your claim when called out on it. We are not going to do your research for you.

If you make bold claims like this in the future, expect this response again. I have given my reasoning why I think your claim is a crock, read the post before yours. Now give me evidence yours is true or else drop the claim because you are broadstroking an entire group of people. You know... exactly what you are asking cops not to do with mentally ill people.

Also, thanks for ignoring every other point in my post too. *rolls eyes*
 
To all of you guys who doubt my statement about LEOs needlessly killing or injuring people with disabilities just do a simple Google search. If you can find this forum then you are skilled enough to find a myriad of examples.
sorry bub, that's not how the game is played, you made an assertion, some of us have questioned the validity of your assertion and now it is incumbent on you to support your assertion with facts, data and cites to where we can confirm the basis of your assertion.

people be aware that this guy has made all of 5 posts here and the recent history of the antis new tactic of sending trolls to disrupt sites like this could be his motive.
 
If you read my OP you'll notice that I blamed these incidences on a lack of training, it's not (usually) the officer's fault because they aren't trained for it. For example, take someone who has Autism. They typically don't like being touched, frequently have language deficiencies, and can't read social cues such as tone of voice. The officer sees someone who refuses to follow his orders and reacts violently when touched. The officer's reaction would be in accordance with his training. However, if he had been trained to recognize that the man in this example was exhibiting autistic traits then he could have handled the situation differently, perhaps by containing the situation without touching the man with autism.

Honestly, if the officer follows proper training, he has a continuum of force to use, and shooting someone is a last resort. If an autistic is going to act that way, then yes, the officer is going to be forced to respond by restraining and arresting him, because he is presenting a clear and immediate threat to himself, the officer, and/or others around him, regardless of why that's happening. This falls back on one of two things: Poor training or execution of training received, or just callused ignorance and malice, both of which I see on a fairly regular basis working with LE while doing armed security. Most of the cops are terrific. I run into one or two regularly who have a Napoleon complex, and like to be bossy jerks, even to people they have to work with like ourselves in the security industry. They show up on scene after being called, yell at the security officers, accusing them of wrong doing before they're even briefed on the situation, complain about even having to show up, take an hour to respond, and so forth.. till their advisor arrives on scene and tells them to go sit it out in the car.
Nobody likes cops like this, not even their co-workers. They exist though. The vast majority of them are not this way, and if you treat them fairly and with respect, you'll receive the same from them.
 
Searched Google on the terms "officers frequently kill innocent statistics" and got millions of hits. There's a lot of data on this. Some of the sites note a marked increase in the death of innocent people at the hands of LEO. There is something to the claim. Personally I Google it myself rather than arguing with someone to cite his findings. Takes less time.
 
Today I was in a store looking at some books with my fiancee and I noticed a woman acting strangely with one of the other customers. She kept going up to customers and each one became uncomfortable and removed themselves from the conversation. Because of the distance I couldn't hear what was being said but my alarms were going off.

Eventually she approached me and was looking at me but never said anything. I ignored her and she never spoke to me because I didn't acknowledge her. Thing is, my fiancee and I both work in the mental health field and realized that this woman was mentally disabled. However, before I realized this she put me on edge and I began to mentally prepare myself for all scenarios (I was CC'ing at the time). I noticed that another customer became very upset with this lady and began to raise his voice.

The topic I'd like to put out there is this: how do you react to people and maintain your composure until you can determine whether or not someone is a threat or has a disability. This lady had no ill intentions, but watching people approach you and talk to you always sets off alarm bells. Especially for people that can't recognize mental illnesses and disabilities as easily as we can, it seems like they might potentially kill or injure someone over a misunderstanding.

I know this is a somewhat frequent problem with police officers who kill people with mental disabilities because they haven't been trained to recognize and handle people in that situation.

Thoughts?

My real answer would be to continue to move around the store and watch the suspect. I say suspect because she was suspected of something.

My question to the OP is: Should this woman be permitted to purchase and own a firearm?
Would you be comfortable with 100% of the people you work with to own firearms?
 
My real answer would be to continue to move around the store and watch the suspect.

why? are you a leo? or are you just being extra vigilant?
I say suspect because she was suspected of something.

really? suspected of something by whom? you? who appointed you to be in that position?
My question to the OP is: Should this woman be permitted to purchase and own a firearm?
Would you be comfortable with 100% of the people you work with to own firearms?
now we're drilling into what the trolling is after.
 
why? are you a leo? or are you just being extra vigilant?


really? suspected of something by whom? you? who appointed you to be in that position?

now we're drilling into what the trolling is after.

The OP Suspected the individual of something, Thus, a Suspect, Duh Florida boy.

Not a LEO anymore, Just someone who accepts responsibility. I don't expect that from anyone but I give it freely. I once took and oath that I believe has no expiration date except upon my death.
I do not expect the same from you.

Troll? You Can come over here and Kiss my As$.
 
Today I was in a store looking at some books with my fiancee and I noticed a woman acting strangely with one of the other customers. She kept going up to customers and each one became uncomfortable and removed themselves from the conversation. Because of the distance I couldn't hear what was being said but my alarms were going off.

Eventually she approached me and was looking at me but never said anything. I ignored her and she never spoke to me because I didn't acknowledge her. Thing is, my fiancee and I both work in the mental health field and realized that this woman was mentally disabled. However, before I realized this she put me on edge and I began to mentally prepare myself for all scenarios (I was CC'ing at the time). I noticed that another customer became very upset with this lady and began to raise his voice.

The topic I'd like to put out there is this: how do you react to people and maintain your composure until you can determine whether or not someone is a threat or has a disability. This lady had no ill intentions, but watching people approach you and talk to you always sets off alarm bells. Especially for people that can't recognize mental illnesses and disabilities as easily as we can, it seems like they might potentially kill or injure someone over a misunderstanding.

I know this is a somewhat frequent problem with police officers who kill people with mental disabilities because they haven't been trained to recognize and handle people in that situation.

Thoughts?
I've read about 4 pages of the back and forth on this one. Did you do anything wrong? No. Would I have handled it differently? Yes, and with you mentioning being in the mental health field I am surprised at the way you handled it. As has been mentioned, looking for a caregiver would be of utmost importance.
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My sister has Downs Syndrome, and though I am not "in the field" I have been around a variety of different mental disorders while working with Special Olympics, Miracle League sports etc. One thing that pervades almost everyone that has some sort of mental disorder is the "look at the butterfly" effect. Something draws their interest and they investigate, while a caregiver who is not attentive or is escorting more than one individual may not notice right away. Sometimes the act of obviously ignoring someone with a mental issue might be what sets them off. I have NEVER (4 decades of experience) seen anyone set off to the point of violence by a kind word. Yes I have seen some that get agitated, but it has never been directed towards me after making an innocuous comment like "good morning".
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Qualifier, if the person doesn't "look" mentally disabled (call it profiling, whatever) there is a possibility that the problem is medicinal and not mental so awareness is key.
 
My question to the OP is: Should this woman be permitted to purchase and own a firearm?
Would you be comfortable with 100% of the people you work with to own firearms?

Dude, read the post, they were looking at books. Where did the person buying a gun come from?
 

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