Mag release safety; Good or Bad?

[TWright]

I have a 9mm with a mag release safety (no fire w/out mag). I'm not worried about the safety feature so much because the gun has no less than 5 redundant active and passive safety features but the mag won't drop free on it's own when I release it. I have to pull it out. Should I disconnect it? I don't need a left coast lawyer saying I don't care about safety.

 

[SGB]

I've removed the mag disconnect from the two pistols I have that had them. It's a dangerous feature in a carry pistol IMO.

 

[NYMike]

There are positives and negatives to having what is called a magazine disconnect. For cops who may likely tangle with a suspect and lose their gun, it can come in handy as cops have hit the mag release during takeaways rendering the gun useless. Same can be said for a civilian, though civilians roles in self defense would tend to involve staying a good distance from a perp so as to avoid contact if possible. My opinion is that a self defense weapon in civilian hands should not have a magazine disconnect. If the mag should fall out or you are in the middle of clearing a malfunction you can still fire. Many PDs use the M&P for officer safety. Most manufacturers do not have the disconnect at all. As far as disconnecting the disconnect, don't even think about it as should you ever, heaven forbid, need to use it, prosecuting attorneys will have a field day stating to the jury not only did you remove a safety on the gun but also ask what gives you that much more experience than the gun manufacturer and their lawyers to know the reasons the safety its there in the first place, regardless of the fact most law enforcement agencies don't use them.

 

[NYMike]

I wanted to add... Basically it is a BS argument from the prosecutions side as the safety doesnt affect the gun as far is it shooting negligently, in some cases like the FN hi-power makes the gun harder to shoot as it gives it a heavier trigger pull. Again, it is my opinion as well as the expert testimony of Massad Ayoob, not to mess with a guns inherent safety features. And although the reason for the disconnect being in place can be argued it was in place for mass storage of the gun in armories, legal eagles will use whatever ammo, no pun intended, they can. And although that in itself may not make or breakma defense i say why add fuel to the fire.

I have guns i carry and guns i shoot for fun. My carry guns do not get modified internally in any way but i will lighten trigger pulls on "fun" guns. Obviously lightening a trigger pull on a carry gun like Glock to something like a good SA 1911 can increase accuracy thereby avoiding missing a target and hitting an unintended target downrange, yet Prosecutors are so narrowminded they won't look at it that way and focus on the fact you think you know better than the company who made the gun. Another reason i wont tie down the grip safety on my XD like some do on theirs and 1911s, regardless that it makes it no different in that regard from a Glock or the fact that the original 1911 had no grip safety.

In a perfect world, guns would have no safeties except for drop and trigger safeties... Noting external, because in the violence and adrenaline of a real gunfight unless you have put in the repetions to create real muscle memory there is the real danger of forgetting to turn the safety off. A local cop was killed nearby me several years ago because he had switched from Glock to a Kimber 1911 for his off duty gun, kept it cocked and locked and was found dead with the gun still locked. The investigation also found from his military training he was used to the Beretta M9 which safetey clicks on/off in the opposite direction. Another reason I am against safeties on anything but SA guns, and having too many combat/carry guns.

I carry two guns only... The XD service and the glock 27. Any future guns i will buy to carry will be a variation of the two. If down the line i do choose a different model, i will mke sure i train excessively before carrying and make sure its manual of arms is extremely similar.

 

[NYMike]

I've removed the mag disconnect from the two pistols I have that had them. It's a dangerous feature in a carry pistol IMO.

I agree with the last sentence, but fear the removal may bite you in the butt if ever you need to use the guns. Why buy those guns if you needed to remove the disconnects, why not just opt for a different make model?

 

[Caribou]

Attorneys like to win. The best win for a prosecutor is homicide. Modify a safety and you just gave the prosecutor the best birthday present he ever had. Remember, you will be tried in a court of law not a COURT OF JUSTICE. The more convictions he gets for murder the bigger his bragging rights. If you get convicted he looks good. If you walk he might suffer political repercussions.

I would sell the gun before I ever altered the safety. NYMike has it right. Any alteration I make to a gun I am prepared in court to explain. Grips, so the gun fits my hand better. Sights, so I am more likely to hit my target and less likely to hit an innocent bystander. Never will I alter a safety or a trigger in a carry gun as this would be too easy for a prosecutor to turn against me. Remember that first you have to survive the fight, then you have to survive the legal system.

 

[SGB]

I agree with the last sentence, but fear the removal may bite you in the butt if ever you need to use the guns.

Can you show one single example of removing a magazine disconnect resulting in a visit from the dreaded boogie man attorney? An intentional shot is an intentional shot just as a negligent shot is a negligent shot and you own it magazine disconnect or not, a click when you need a bang gets you dead.

Why buy those guns if you needed to remove the disconnects, why not just opt for a different make model?

Why don't ALL guns come with magazine disconnects? Why buy a Taurus instead of a S&W? Why does S&W make the exact same model with and without a mag disconnect? Why do Kimber, Colt and S&W make 1911's with and without firing pin blocks?

Why do I carry a $2500.00 Springfield Professional? Why do I fix guns and make holsters or teach firearms?

Why don't I live in NY?

WHY WHY WHY ?

 

[Firefighterchen]

A local cop was killed by me several years ago because he had switched from Glock to a Kimber 1911 for his off duty gun, kept it cocked and locked and was found dead with the gun still locked.

Maybe I'm just reading it wrong...who killed the Leo? Or is this a reference to distance near you?

To the OP: carry the firearm that you are most confident with. Whether that be the firearm you have now with the disconnect disconnected, or get a different firearm. Its you're life at stake, you make the decision that you are most confident in.

 

[SGB]

Maybe I'm just reading it wrong...who killed the Leo? Or is this a reference to distance near you?

I'm sure he meant by as in near, not as in he did it.

 

[NYMike]

Maybe I'm just reading it wrong...who killed the Leo? Or is this a reference to distance near you?

To the OP: carry the firearm that you are most confident with. Whether that be the firearm you have now with the disconnect disconnected, or get a different firearm. Its you're life at stake, you make the decision that you are most confident in.

Oops! Nearby me... Was referring to distance of course.

 

[NYMike]

It doesn't make sense... It's just the law,

Can you show one single example of removing a magazine disconnect resulting in a visit from the dreaded boogie man attorney? An intentional shot is an intentional shot just as a negligent shot is a negligent shot and you own it magazine disconnect or not, a click when you need a bang gets you dead.



Why don't ALL guns come with magazine disconnects? Why buy a Taurus instead of a S&W? Why does S&W make the exact same model with and without a mag disconnect? Why do Kimber, Colt and S&W make 1911's with and without firing pin blocks?

Why do I carry a $2500.00 Springfield Professional? Why do I fix guns and make holsters or teach firearms?

Why don't I live in NY?

WHY WHY WHY ?

I agree with you in that most of these decisions by manufacturers don't make sense. But when it comes to court it doesn't have to. Lots of cases that seemed easily as self defense end up convictions. Lots of perps seemingly should have had a slam dunk airtight conviction get off scot free. As a column in mu USSCCA magazine staes "It doesnt have to make sense... Its the law!"

Although my screenname is NYMIke, I live in Las Vegas. I voted with my feet. Although I cant give an example of where in a court case if at all a magazine disconnect was the mitigating factor in a convction of a victim claiming self defense, I doubt it would help and in my understanding it is a generally accepted practice not to modify or disconnect safeties, lighten trigger pulls beyond a certain minimum, use handloads or reloads because in evidence, since there is no SAAMMI or CIP standard lot of testable ammo for forensics ballisticians to fire, forensic experts can not testify to the lethality of the bullets fired. This is what i have learned from many noted authors including Massad Ayoob. You don't need to agree with me. Do as you please when it comes to your guns. We aren't here to argue points but discuss and relate useful information. I do what is best for me, youndomwhat is best for you.

Good day!

 

[NYMike]

Some Pros and Cons of the magazine disconnect

FROM WIKIPEDIA

A magazine disconnect is an internal mechanism that engages a mechanical safety such as a block or trigger disconnect when the firearm's magazine is removed. This feature was first used with the Browning Hi-Power pistol. As with any firearm feature, there is debate regarding the necessity of a magazine disconnect. Historically, most magazine-capable firearm designs have had no magazine disconnect. There are exceptions, notably Ruger rimfire rifles and some of their newer handgun designs, and the U.S. State of California passed legislation in 2006 requiring magazine disconnects on all new handgun designs sold in the state starting January 1, 2007, which has resulted in their widespread availability in other jurisdictions as well.

The arguments in favor of a magazine disconnect are that if the gun cannot fire without a magazine, then an accidental discharge can be prevented if someone removes the magazine but forgets that a round has been chambered. Also, if losing possession of the firearm is imminent, the operator can render the firearm useless by removing the magazine.
The arguments against a magazine disconnect are that without a magazine the firearm is useless except as a club. Without the feature, if a magazine was lost or otherwise not available, then at least the gun could be chambered with a single round to be used as a single shot firearm. From a technical standpoint, a magazine disconnect adds extra parts to a firearm and thus increases complexity which creates additional risk of component failure while potentially increasing production costs. In some cases, the disconnect adversely affects trigger feel, and hence affects accuracy.

 

[flcracker]

totally agree...

I've removed the mag disconnect from the two pistols I have that had them. It's a dangerous feature in a carry pistol IMO.

... I removed one several years ago on a S&W 39-2 9mm that was a former NJ-SP pistol. The pistol functioned just as it was supposed to for several more years, in every way, except that when the mag was removed, the pistol would still fire a round that was chambered.

If my SD carry will not function, when the mag might inadvertently be released, or to replace a full mag with a partially empty one, then I can't fully feel secure in its abilty to protect.

The Bersa T45UC that I carry these days, had/has no disconnect. That was a major factor in my buying it.

Best..

FLc

 

[CharlieK]

I think the firearm manufacturers put in the magazine safety because several years ago two teenage boys were playing with a loaded pistol belonging to the father of one of them. The boys shot a few rounds, then one removed the magazine thinking that that unloaded the gun. He pointed the gun at the other boy, in fun, and pulled the trigger, not realizing that a round was in the chamber. The other boy died. Then the lawyers sued the manufacture, which, I think, was S&W.

 

[X-Beast]

I wouldn't worry too much about the legal ramifications of disabling the mag safety. Let's say you are involved in a self defense shooting. Would the mag safety be an issue in that incident when the bullets are flying? I don't see how it could. I do see how it could have an adverse effect if you are in the middle of a tactical mag change and the perp rushes you before you could get the new mag inserted. You shoot in self defense to save your live and your loved ones. That's the bottom line. A gun hating prosecuter could try to argue about disengaging the mag safety feature but the flip side could be what if you used a Glock instead of a Ruger LC9? Then it wouldn't be an issue. It could be articulated that disengaging the mag safety feature saved your life. I think the mag safety feature might be a good thing for begining shooters and those with small children. When my kids were young I kept the mag and the gun hidden in my bedroom in 2 separate places with the chamber empty. The mag safety allows you to keep a round in the pipe without being able to pull the trigger until you insert the mag. In this day and age with violence happening anywhere and everywhere, having quick access to your gun in the middle of the night might mean the difference between life and death. The mag safety will prevent an accidental discharge or death if an unauthorised person (or child) gets a hold of the gun. There are pros and cons to the mag safety but I wouldn't worry much about the possible legal ramifications. I'm not an attorney but that is my common sense thought on this issue.

 

[TWright]

I am a devout follower of Mas Ayoob as well and that's why I worry about Lawyers, but he is also very big on mags dropping free without three hands in a reload. Performing a clean reload to me is a bigger safety feature than a mag disconnect (maybe the lawyers would buy that ). I bought the gun before I knew better and it still has a thumb safety, a firing pin block, trigger disconnect, half cock notch, and an out of battery disconnect. I think its safe. It's a sweet gun (9mm) and I'm keeping it but I have a diff. primary carry gun (.45).

 

[fudo]

I think the firearm manufacturers put in the magazine safety because several years ago two teenage boys were playing with a loaded pistol belonging to the father of one of them. The boys shot a few rounds, then one removed the magazine thinking that that unloaded the gun. He pointed the gun at the other boy, in fun, and pulled the trigger, not realizing that a round was in the chamber. The other boy died. Then the lawyers sued the manufacture, which, I think, was S&W.

The reason that lots of guns now have magazine disconnect is that they are required for sale to the PRK (Kalifornia):frown: I believe that mag disconnect safeties are not safeties, but dangerous, for if my SD carry will not function when the mag might inadvertently be released, or to replace a full mag with a partially empty one then I can't fully feel secure in its ability to protect.

 

[Stan45]

The P-35 may have been the first magazine safety, and that was for the French, need I say more??

 

[S&W645]

I have 3 S&Ws with mag safeties. Models 645, 659, and 5906. All three will eject the mags just fine. All three will not fire without the mag in. The 5906 is a former police duty gun. But they aren't the result of S&W being sued several years ago. The 645 is nearly three decades old. They were only made the 1985 to 1988. Same timeframe applies to the 659. 5906 design dates back to 1989. Clinton handgun deal hurt S&W when they agreed to the extra safety items in the early 1990s.

 

[Glock Fan]

Pistols made with the magazine disconnect feature are usually made without it as well, or can be modified by a factory authorized armorer/gunsmith. I can think of several more "con" than "pro" reasons for having a pistol equipped with a magazine disconnect.

Whatever you choose, train with the equipment and train often so you will know exactly how it will work and what the firearm can and cannot do. You will never know exactly when a SD situation will occur, so you need to be prepared. Find the pistol that works for you, as only you can make the decision. Others can make recommendations, however only you know the many variables involved in how you will use the firearm as well as your strengths and weaknesses.