Law Enforcement encounter in NYC while off duty and vacationing

[fathermartin]

This is my first day and first post on usa carry as a new member. I was reading some of the comments on Law Enforcement encounters while carrying concealed. A few years ago I traveled to New York City with my wife and grand daughter and I brought a small handgun in my checked baggage. While checking in at Seatac airport in Seattle I had no problems declaring my handgun. I was aware of the firearms hating attitude of New York politicians, and checked into rules of concealed carry for law enforcement in that city and at their airports with TSA. Even though HR 218 allows police officers to carry in all states I was also aware that New York does not like that law and I believe two vacationing officers had been arrested for carrying concealed in their city and the NRA was investigating the validity of those arrests. We arrived in New York at JFK and visited downtown New York City. I contacted many "street" officers to include Sergeant's. On one occasion we took the ferry to Manhattan and it appeared there were metal detectors in the terminal that I would have to pass through. I found out later that they were not metal detectors. I saw a uniformed NYPD officer there and advised him I was a vacationing officer from out of state and I was packing. I asked him if there was any problem with me carrying on the ferry. He laughed and told me "man, your a cop so you better be packing". On our last day we got to JFK 4 hours early to be sure we would make our flight. We got to the check in counter and were advised that since I had a handgun in my luggage that I would have to wait for a police officer. I asked if TSA didn't normally handle this and was advised "not here". About 45 minutes later a young NYPD officer arrived and I identified myself as a police sergeant and showed him my credentials and badge. He had to write down everything from my drivers license and commission card. He then advised that I had to take my handgun out of its locked box so he could inspect it. I asked, "right here at the ticket counter." He advised yes so I took it out and he asked me to open the action which I did. Someone waiting in line loudly said "he's got a gun". The officer quickly assured them it was alright. I told the officer that now everyone in the area now knew I was a cop and if anyone intended to take over the aircraft I would likely be targeted first as would my family. He said he understood but he had to follow instructions and that he did not agree with all of them. I asked about TSA and he advised TSA was not allowed to touch a bag that had a firearm in it without uniformed officers present because some of their personel had stolen handguns from luggage in the past. Makes ya feel good doesn't it. The officer then said the next step was to wait for a supervisor to sign off on it. More time went by and finally a crusty older Sergeant (thank god), arrived and I identified myself to him. He looked at my ID and laughed and told the officer to escort us with my bag containing my gun to our flight. This all took almost 4 hours so we just made our flight. I must say I was nervous about this process and wondered if I would be detained and the FBI would be the next step. All of the NYPD officers and supervisors I contacted were great and I appreciated their assistance. They apologized for all the rules and regulations they had to abide by. I feel for you guys. I am now retired and travel is my passion. I just want all of you to know that police officers too, worry when they travel armed that regulations from state to state may cause them problems, and we are not above going through the same anxiety that you face when confronted by law enforcement. I don't know how that New York Trip would have gone if I had not been a police officer. In 35 years of law enforcement I never had a problem with anyone legally carrying a firearm. At times I had to temporarily relieve them of it until I could figure out what was going on. In many of those cases people told me they were surprised that I returned their gun to them and they thanked me for not lecturing them on carrying a concealed handgun. I also know there are officers out there (very few by the way) that disagree and feel only the cops and feds should be allowed to carry. That attitude scares the hell out of me. I don't want a police state either. The huge majority of police officers nationwide support the 2nd amendment. As a result of the above incident it is not likely I will every fly into JFK again and likely will not visit a state where politicians do not even trust police officers to protect themselves, their families or other innocent people.

 

[GlassWolf]

Personally, I find SeaTac (Actually the entire state of Washington) to be as anti-gun as NYC, and generally speaking, the people are just as rude.

 

[MI .45]

This is my first day and first post on usa carry as a new member. I was reading some of the comments on Law Enforcement encounters while carrying concealed. A few years ago I traveled to New York City with my wife and grand daughter and I brought a small handgun in my checked baggage. While checking in at Seatac airport in Seattle I had no problems declaring my handgun. I was aware of the firearms hating attitude of New York politicians, and checked into rules of concealed carry for law enforcement in that city and at their airports with TSA. Even though HR 218 allows police officers to carry in all states I was also aware that New York does not like that law and I believe two vacationing officers had been arrested for carrying concealed in their city and the NRA was investigating the validity of those arrests. We arrived in New York at JFK and visited downtown New York City. I contacted many "street" officers to include Sergeant's. On one occasion we took the ferry to Manhattan and it appeared there were metal detectors in the terminal that I would have to pass through. I found out later that they were not metal detectors. I saw a uniformed NYPD officer there and advised him I was a vacationing officer from out of state and I was packing. I asked him if there was any problem with me carrying on the ferry. He laughed and told me "man, your a cop so you better be packing". On our last day we got to JFK 4 hours early to be sure we would make our flight. We got to the check in counter and were advised that since I had a handgun in my luggage that I would have to wait for a police officer. I asked if TSA didn't normally handle this and was advised "not here". About 45 minutes later a young NYPD officer arrived and I identified myself as a police sergeant and showed him my credentials and badge. He had to write down everything from my drivers license and commission card. He then advised that I had to take my handgun out of its locked box so he could inspect it. I asked, "right here at the ticket counter." He advised yes so I took it out and he asked me to open the action which I did. Someone waiting in line loudly said "he's got a gun". The officer quickly assured them it was alright. I told the officer that now everyone in the area now knew I was a cop and if anyone intended to take over the aircraft I would likely be targeted first as would my family. He said he understood but he had to follow instructions and that he did not agree with all of them. I asked about TSA and he advised TSA was not allowed to touch a bag that had a firearm in it without uniformed officers present because some of their personel had stolen handguns from luggage in the past. Makes ya feel good doesn't it. The officer then said the next step was to wait for a supervisor to sign off on it. More time went by and finally a crusty older Sergeant (thank god), arrived and I identified myself to him. He looked at my ID and laughed and told the officer to escort us with my bag containing my gun to our flight. This all took almost 4 hours so we just made our flight. I must say I was nervous about this process and wondered if I would be detained and the FBI would be the next step. All of the NYPD officers and supervisors I contacted were great and I appreciated their assistance. They apologized for all the rules and regulations they had to abide by. I feel for you guys. I am now retired and travel is my passion. I just want all of you to know that police officers too, worry when they travel armed that regulations from state to state may cause them problems, and we are not above going through the same anxiety that you face when confronted by law enforcement. I don't know how that New York Trip would have gone if I had not been a police officer. In 35 years of law enforcement I never had a problem with anyone legally carrying a firearm. At times I had to temporarily relieve them of it until I could figure out what was going on. In many of those cases people told me they were surprised that I returned their gun to them and they thanked me for not lecturing them on carrying a concealed handgun. I also know there are officers out there (very few by the way) that disagree and feel only the cops and feds should be allowed to carry. That attitude scares the hell out of me. I don't want a police state either. The huge majority of police officers nationwide support the 2nd amendment. As a result of the above incident it is not likely I will every fly into JFK again and likely will not visit a state where politicians do not even trust police officers to protect themselves, their families or other innocent people.

Nice first post, fathermartin... welcome to the forum and we trust that we will hear more from you.

 

[ezkl2230]

Welcome aboard!

 

[FNWylde]

it is not likely I will every fly into JFK again and likely will not visit a state where politicians do not even trust police officers to protect themselves, their families or other innocent people.

Same goal for virtually all legal weapons carriers, there is no distinction in the 2A between LE and general population. Crazy, huh?

 

[Kennydale]

As a BROOKLYN born kid i can tell you the best thing about NYC..... Is seeing it in your rear view mirror :bad:

 

[wolf_fire]

Welcome aboard and I hope you enjoy the people and the forums.

I just wish as a Reserve Deputy with our Sheriff's departments I had the same rights as you to be able to carry in all 50 states. Alas, at some point, hopefully, this country will realize what the Constitution means.

 

[HoJo]

As a BROOKLYN born kid i can tell you the best thing about NYC..... Is seeing it in your rear view mirror :bad:

Unless you're going through the Lincoln Tunnel.

 

[Itstjs]

Welcome aboard. Good to hear your encounter went well, although, I am pretty sure it would have been incredibility different if you were not LE.

 

[mojoman]

Welcome sir, it's good to have you and your expertise in LE, and like someone said if your wasn't in LE it probably wouldn't went well. Now I know that I will never go to NYC, even though I have some family there but they would have to come see me.

 

[BluesStringer]

I feel for you guys. I am now retired and travel is my passion. I just want all of you to know that police officers too, worry when they travel armed that regulations from state to state may cause them problems, and we are not above going through the same anxiety that you face when confronted by law enforcement.

The story was interesting.....kinda, but it left me with a bad taste in my mouth that a citizen who wears a badge is treated differently and better than a citizen who just goes through life working his ass off, abiding by the law and paying the bill that allows all government employees to "earn" that special treatment. Your anxiety is decidedly not the "same" as ours. Our anxiety is that we will be arrested, charged, convicted and jailed in the exact same situation you just described. Your anxiety is that you might face some hassle, but a federal law is always there to bail you out when another cop decides to throw his weight around. Hardly the "same" kind of anxiety.

I don't know how that New York Trip would have gone if I had not been a police officer.

Believe me, the rest of us who don't have special privileges due to a LE career sure know how it would have gone for us. I'm glad for you that it was nothing more than four hours of ultimately uneventful hassles, but I'm not impressed at all by the reason it was. Your "anxiety" over what you knew would be resolved in your favor before ever setting foot on the plane at SEATAC provides no comfort for the rest of us who have nothing but a dead Constitution to cite while NY cops would be bustin' our hotel room doors down if they knew we tried what you got away with due to special privileges.

In 35 years of law enforcement I never had a problem with anyone legally carrying a firearm.

In the context of the words, "...shall not be infringed," what might one expect would be the illegal carrying of a firearm?

At times I had to temporarily relieve them of it until I could figure out what was going on. In many of those cases people told me they were surprised that I returned their gun to them and they thanked me for not lecturing them on carrying a concealed handgun.

I'm curious how you were made aware of the concealed weapon in such encounters? Your first post doesn't make it clear if your career was spent in WA State, but if it was, WA is not a must-notify state, so we would have to assume that many concealed carriers that you contacted volunteered information that they had no legal obligation to give you, and that you decided that a safe gun in a holster would be safer being first seized, then handled by you, handled by you and the subject when you gave it back, and then many of those people actually thanked you for not "lecturing" them? To me, that's the same as thanking you for violating my 4th Amendment rights not to have my property and effects seized without probable cause of a crime either having been committed, or about to be. It's one of the oddest occurrences that we read about on this site, where citizens whose rights were the very impetus for The Constitution ever being written, feel the need to thank and/or acquiesce those same rights to a stranger simply because they wear a badge.

In a similar situation such as you mention, I would have been polite, given you whatever required info you needed to complete the contact (or reserved my right to deny handing over info if I knew you had no legal authority to demand it of me), and been on my way with my weapon remaining in the safest place possible - in its holster - and not having been handled by at least two people, one of whom had no legal reason to even know it was there to begin with. Of course, this assumes you either policed somewhere in WA State or another state where disclosure isn't required. If you were working somewhere that was a must-notify jurisdiction, then my responses to your requests would comply with those laws.

As a result of the above incident it is not likely I will every fly into JFK again and likely will not visit a state where politicians do not even trust police officers to protect themselves, their families or other innocent people.

Yeah, those kinds of states are bad, no doubt. Just imagine how bad they are for the poor schlubs who don't have a federal law to pull their bacon out of the fire when things go sideways with cops who don't give a damn about their rights though. Methinks that numbers of those kinds of cops may not be so "very few" as you think. I would say the "schlub-class" has a much better handle on that than LEOs who usually get hassled only to the point of producing valid ID that establishes them as an LEO (or retired LEO).

I know this post may sound like I really hate cops, but that's not true. I distrust cops because, whether they're one of the good ones or the bad ones, they all have the same potential to abuse their authority with virtual impunity. Of course there are exceptions to the rule of cops avoiding being held to account fully for their illegal transgressions, but I won't know until after the contact whether I just encountered a good cop after I'm driving (or walking as the case may be) off unharmed and with all of my rights having not been violated. So I go into all encounters (which is literally only four that I can remember in the last 30+ years) being extremely cautious and skeptical. What I will never do however, is concede any right that I have just because someone with a badge is standing at my driver's window illegally demanding that I should. The truly odd thing that I read, hear and watch videos about on an all-too-regular basis is though, that the very people who are sworn to protect and defend our rights, get the most pissed off when a citizen invokes their rights, and some get downright violent, and of those who do, very few ever suffer any real consequences for it.

Anyway, welcome to the site. No, really, I mean that. Your post makes you seem like a nice guy with some interesting life's experiences to fill us in on (if'n you're so inclined). But it also told a story of special treatment that the rest of us are not entitled to, so I hope your future contributions will express ideas that more of us can relate to in personal ways. Surely you have some such stories, right?

Blues

 

[Mobuck]

"I just wish as a Reserve Deputy with our Sheriff's departments I had the same rights as you to be able to carry in all 50 states. Alas, at some point, hopefully, this country will realize what the Constitution means."
I wish as an American citizen I had the same rights to carry as do the LEO's who may or may not be more responsible than I.

 

[r1derbike]

Welcome to USACarry. You sound like a patient retired LEO. Nice first post.

I have a lot of LEO and former LEO friends, who are standup cops, or were.

I'm dismayed at the reports and videos of a "jack boot thug" cop mentality. While the honorable officers' duty is rarely seen or appreciated, some young recruits are more than happy to go to war with citizens. A strange breed, as one of my older LEO acquaintances calls them.

Anyway, welcome aboard, and hope you post often!

 

[wolf_fire]

"I just wish as a Reserve Deputy with our Sheriff's departments I had the same rights as you to be able to carry in all 50 states. Alas, at some point, hopefully, this country will realize what the Constitution means."
I wish as an American citizen I had the same rights to carry as do the LEO's who may or may not be more responsible than I.

That was my point. We are ALL citizens regardless of the profession we are in. I am actually a teacher by trade. Which also means I cannot carry to work or at work either. Being in the Reserve Division gives me no extra or special rights over anyone else. It is a voluntary group that serves the people with extra LE for events where they cannot pay for extra LE. We are also around in case the Sheriff has an emergency and needs more hands but does not have the time to deputize them or train them.

 

[BluesStringer]

So, apparently, the former officer could not handle any posts that didn't express sympathy with how he was mistreated in NYC. Not because every citizen suffers violations of their rights while in NYC, but because he was a former cop and had to suffer the indignity of waiting four hours before boarding his flight on the way home with no further consequences imposed upon him. All the rest of us would have been thrown in jail, probably beaten and bloodied, but one or two of us here on this site didn't polish this guy's retired badge so he doesn't come back to participate on the site at all. Strange.

Blues

 

[The_Outlaw]

The story was interesting.....kinda, but it left me with a bad taste in my mouth that a citizen who wears a badge is treated differently and better than a citizen who just goes through life working his ass off, abiding by the law and paying the bill that allows all government employees to "earn" that special treatment. Your anxiety is decidedly not the "same" as ours. Our anxiety is that we will be arrested, charged, convicted and jailed in the exact same situation you just described. Your anxiety is that you might face some hassle, but a federal law is always there to bail you out when another cop decides to throw his weight around. Hardly the "same" kind of anxiety.



Believe me, the rest of us who don't have special privileges due to a LE career sure know how it would have gone for us. I'm glad for you that it was nothing more than four hours of ultimately uneventful hassles, but I'm not impressed at all by the reason it was. Your "anxiety" over what you knew would be resolved in your favor before ever setting foot on the plane at SEATAC provides no comfort for the rest of us who have nothing but a dead Constitution to cite while NY cops would be bustin' our hotel room doors down if they knew we tried what you got away with due to special privileges.



In the context of the words, "...shall not be infringed," what might one expect would be the illegal carrying of a firearm?



I'm curious how you were made aware of the concealed weapon in such encounters? Your first post doesn't make it clear if your career was spent in WA State, but if it was, WA is not a must-notify state, so we would have to assume that many concealed carriers that you contacted volunteered information that they had no legal obligation to give you, and that you decided that a safe gun in a holster would be safer being first seized, then handled by you, handled by you and the subject when you gave it back, and then many of those people actually thanked you for not "lecturing" them? To me, that's the same as thanking you for violating my 4th Amendment rights not to have my property and effects seized without probable cause of a crime either having been committed, or about to be. It's one of the oddest occurrences that we read about on this site, where citizens whose rights were the very impetus for The Constitution ever being written, feel the need to thank and/or acquiesce those same rights to a stranger simply because they wear a badge.

In a similar situation such as you mention, I would have been polite, given you whatever required info you needed to complete the contact (or reserved my right to deny handing over info if I knew you had no legal authority to demand it of me), and been on my way with my weapon remaining in the safest place possible - in its holster - and not having been handled by at least two people, one of whom had no legal reason to even know it was there to begin with. Of course, this assumes you either policed somewhere in WA State or another state where disclosure isn't required. If you were working somewhere that was a must-notify jurisdiction, then my responses to your requests would comply with those laws.



Yeah, those kinds of states are bad, no doubt. Just imagine how bad they are for the poor schlubs who don't have a federal law to pull their bacon out of the fire when things go sideways with cops who don't give a damn about their rights though. Methinks that numbers of those kinds of cops may not be so "very few" as you think. I would say the "schlub-class" has a much better handle on that than LEOs who usually get hassled only to the point of producing valid ID that establishes them as an LEO (or retired LEO).

I know this post may sound like I really hate cops, but that's not true. I distrust cops because, whether they're one of the good ones or the bad ones, they all have the same potential to abuse their authority with virtual impunity. Of course there are exceptions to the rule of cops avoiding being held to account fully for their illegal transgressions, but I won't know until after the contact whether I just encountered a good cop after I'm driving (or walking as the case may be) off unharmed and with all of my rights having not been violated. So I go into all encounters (which is literally only four that I can remember in the last 30+ years) being extremely cautious and skeptical. What I will never do however, is concede any right that I have just because someone with a badge is standing at my driver's window illegally demanding that I should. The truly odd thing that I read, hear and watch videos about on an all-too-regular basis is though, that the very people who are sworn to protect and defend our rights, get the most pissed off when a citizen invokes their rights, and some get downright violent, and of those who do, very few ever suffer any real consequences for it.

Anyway, welcome to the site. No, really, I mean that. Your post makes you seem like a nice guy with some interesting life's experiences to fill us in on (if'n you're so inclined). But it also told a story of special treatment that the rest of us are not entitled to, so I hope your future contributions will express ideas that more of us can relate to in personal ways. Surely you have some such stories, right?

Blues

^^^What he said^^^ Very well stated and I could not agree more!

 

[jcreek]

Personally, I find SeaTac (Actually the entire state of Washington) to be as anti-gun as NYC, and generally speaking, the people are just as rude.

That is just plain wrong. You will find several members on here from Washington and to generalize an entire state like that is just wrong. I can see why everyone you met was rude to you.

 

[nontechguy]

I am curious to see if he does post again.
I hope we didn't scare him off.

 

[UATKP]

As a BROOKLYN born kid i can tell you the best thing about NYC..... Is seeing it in your rear view mirror :bad:

That is also true about Lubbock,Texas.

 

[k9inspector]

I agree it is disconcerting to travel to some states. Several years ago we traveled to California. I called to determine what the laws were for an active LEO to carry while visiting and was told that unless I was on a case it was not permitted. I was going to carry anyway so I kept looking and eventually found a retired CHP officer that told me out of sight out of mind and not to mention it unless I wanted to be arrested. So I spent a week of being half nervous every time we were on the road and we drove around a lot. I also questioned them (California) recently about the Federal Law that allows us to carry and was told that they do not honor that law I still had no right to carry in their state. Thank God for the states that have reciprocity with Florida. Vince Florida has one of the largest reciprocal agreements with other states it would be nice if we get a national carry permit.