It's all about Combat, not firearms!


ONLYPILL

New member
Here's a hint for you that you that almost no shooting instructors know, or will tell you!

When you have learned your marksmanship, concentrate on these targets in the attacker body!

http://www.karate-shotokan-kata.com/...re-points.html

Just shoot the attacker in the kneecaps to totally disable him if you know nothing else.

Remember, the fact that the attacker is close to you gives you the advantage, if he is unaware that you are armed.

It's all about combat, and the handgun is just another tool in the arsenal

Baseball Bats, Tire Irons, and knives have all been used very effectively over the years.

A well placed rock will also stop the attacker.

Ramming a stick through the attacker's eye works every time.

Would you listen to someone arguing about the best wood the stick should be made of for maxium stopping effect?

Weapons material is everywhere.

We are talking about self defense here, not starting an assault on another!
 

Phillip Gain

New member
CENTER MASS!!
CENTER MASS!!
CENTER MASS!!

And in case I wasn't clear - CENTER MASS!!

In a real life self-defense situation, your average defensive shooter DOES NOT HAVE TIME OR CONCENTRATION ENOUGH to select, aim at, and hit one of these critical points.

It's one thing to have pinpoint accuracy when you're shooting at paper. It's another thing entirely to engage a living, moving, attacking target. KEEP IT SIMPLE. AIM FOR CENTER OF MASS. SHOOT UNTIL THE THREAT IS STOPPED.

Telling people to "aim for one of these 10+ critical points" is irresponsible instructing.
 

localgirl

New member
If I have to kick, punch, or otherwise strike, you can be sure it will be one of the optimal and terribly sensitive parts of the body. And should I have the time, I would love nothing more than to put a bullet in a tender part of someone's non-vital anatomy, if for no other reason than to stop and savor the look on his face. However, I have a feeling that most self-defense situations that would involve me firing my weapon will not involve me having the time or foresight to carefully aim.
 

Black Dragon

New member
When something happens in close quarters you are not going to have time to aim precisely for certain body parts.
You aim for center mass! Not the knees, not the hand, not the head. Center Mass!

In very close quarters you will most likely have to start shooting just as you pull your pistol and get it level. You may not even be able to aim for center mass in a situation like this.

Check this vid out and tell me if you would have time to aim for specific body parts.
 

stingray2100

New member
@ONLYPHILL

I really do not know where you are getting your info. Or what experience or training you have Phill, but you sure are dangerous with the info you are providing.

In a critical situation you really do not have any time to aim at your attacker(s).

1.- Your first instinct during an attack is to bring you hands up in a protective/defensive stand.
2.- Second would be to get a grip on your handgun.(this is not including moving garments to get to it).
3.- Point the firearm at the threat.

You are not shooting at paper Phil. You are pointing a firearm under high stress and making a decisions in less then a second. And not including the amount of training the individual has.


are you serious? really? Your an instructor, would you really provide that information to your students?

wow.

using your gun is the last option, most people have no combative training. But in a time of need like everyone else knows you will do anything to protect yourself.

SO:
1.- Aim CENTER MASS. if you have a chance to unolster you firearm
2.- Fight your way to create distance between you and you attacker if you need to.
3.- Train as realistically possible all the time.

YOU DO NOT HAVE TIME TO AIM.
 

codacreator

New member
I Agree!

With fine motor skills gone and your brain in neanderthal mode (thank you epinephrine), it'll be all you can do to hit your assailant center-mass (or pelvic triangle) with a shot (or more likely many shots) that will incapacitate. Worrying about "just winging" them or knee-capping them is more likely to get you seriously wounded or worse.
 

HOTCHKIS

New member
That is where shooting from retention come's into play! Everyone should shoot IDPA and USPSA for there own protection!
 

Phillip Gain

New member
@ONLYPHILL

I really do not know where you are getting your info. Or what experience or training you have Phill, but you sure are dangerous with the info you are providing.

In a critical situation you really do not have any time to aim at your attacker(s).

1.- Your first instinct during an attack is to bring you hands up in a protective/defensive stand.
2.- Second would be to get a grip on your handgun.(this is not including moving garments to get to it).
3.- Point the firearm at the threat.

You are not shooting at paper Phil. You are pointing a firearm under high stress and making a decisions in less then a second. And not including the amount of training the individual has.


are you serious? really? Your an instructor, would you really provide that information to your students?

wow.

using your gun is the last option, most people have no combative training. But in a time of need like everyone else knows you will do anything to protect yourself.

SO:
1.- Aim CENTER MASS. if you have a chance to unolster you firearm
2.- Fight your way to create distance between you and you attacker if you need to.
3.- Train as realistically possible all the time.

YOU DO NOT HAVE TIME TO AIM.

That's basically what I said to him. And his nickname is ONLYPILL - as in pill - something hard to swallow. NOT PHIL. I'M PHIL. :)
 

Purple

New member
I'll go out on a limb here and questions your rationale ONLYPILL. I'll go out even further and question your credibility of being a 'firearms instructor' in recommending picking an extremely small target on a person with a shoot to wound to stop mentality. If your recommendations are nothing more than to illicit opinionated discussion, you have done due diligence. However; if you truly believe and teach your recommendations to students, you better have some really good personal liability insurance...cause sued ex-students and wounded assailants will be knocking on your door!
 

slag_it!

New member
Center mass works in almost any situation. The downside to the advice I have read is that Phillip Gain had stated to "shoot until the threat is stopped" saves your life but, now you are the one up for either manslaughter or murder. It is self defense up to a point and then you become the aggressor. My suggestion is shoot center mass and make sure it drops the assailant with the first round. I have seen many people spend years in prison because of the double tap mentality. Just my own personal witness.
 

BigSlick

New member
Center mass works in almost any situation. The downside to the advice I have read is that Phillip Gain had stated to "shoot until the threat is stopped" saves your life but, now you are the one up for either manslaughter or murder. It is self defense up to a point and then you become the aggressor. My suggestion is shoot center mass and make sure it drops the assailant with the first round. I have seen many people spend years in prison because of the double tap mentality. Just my own personal witness.

How do you make sure your attacker stops trying to kill you after you only shoot him once? Answer is, shoot him again until he is no longer a threat. Even if you manage to score a center mass hit your attacker may not stop. That's why follow up shots are just as important as the first one. I would rather explain it to a jury then be a statistic.
 

johnmed3

New member
slag_it!:230241 said:
Center mass works in almost any situation. The downside to the advice I have read is that Phillip Gain had stated to "shoot until the threat is stopped" saves your life but, now you are the one up for either manslaughter or murder. It is self defense up to a point and then you become the aggressor. My suggestion is shoot center mass and make sure it drops the assailant with the first round. I have seen many people spend years in prison because of the double tap mentality. Just my own personal witness.

You shoot the perp until he stops being a threat. Weather it takes 1 or 100 shots. I will not stop until the bg is no longer a threat to my life!
 

OpenCarryYes

New member
What some people dont understand, especially most karate teachers that I have met, is that a shot to the knee will produce permanent damage and the court will call that maiming. You will lose a civil battle in a heartbeat. The knee is such a small target that you would have to be hitting the dead center of your paper target EVERY time you shoot just to have a remote chance of hitting the kneecap. And that doesnt even consider the effects of the stress that you will be under in an event bad enough to require you to draw your gun. It took me years of training to get past the notion that I was invincible just because I had a black belt. Actual life threatening situations require immediate action which requires training. Since most people dont tain for hours everyday, most people should shoot for center mass to stop the attack.

That being said, you are correct in that a shot to one of these areas will most likely stop the attack. However, just to be sure that you wont fail, make sure you can still hit the center of ypur paper while moving and under attack. Then, you might be successful in your defense
 

johnmed3

New member
Yeah i agree, but the chance anybody being able to hit such a small, moving target with any kind of precision is like the forecast of tonight of rain of $20.00 gold pieces :D
 

Phillip Gain

New member
Center mass works in almost any situation. The downside to the advice I have read is that Phillip Gain had stated to "shoot until the threat is stopped" saves your life but, now you are the one up for either manslaughter or murder. It is self defense up to a point and then you become the aggressor. My suggestion is shoot center mass and make sure it drops the assailant with the first round. I have seen many people spend years in prison because of the double tap mentality. Just my own personal witness.

Shoot until the threat is stopped. Nowhere in that sentence does it say anything about killing.

"Stopped" can mean the attacker surrenders. Or flees. Or loses consciousness. Or is paralyzed. Or dies. In one way or another, the threat is stopped, when the attacker stops attacking.

When defending your life - shoot until the threat is stopped. You are justified in doing so.
 

slag_it!

New member
I agree with what your saying about shooting until the threat is stopped but, was pointing out the fact that the law will not see it the same way. Trust me if you hit them with a 9mm it usally requires a second shot. Hit them with a .40 or .45 and no need for second shot over 90% of the time. I use to live on the South Side of Chicago and witnessed in front of my house the police department and a guy strung out on PCP( toxicology report proved this), have a shoot out. He took 15 rounds from their 9mm's and did not die until after going to the hospital. By the following year all officer's in our precinct started carrying .40 or .45 sidearms. Most shootouts from that point forward was over rather quickly. I should have made it a little more clear and apologize for not doing so. Try stopping the threat within the first round if at all possible but, if a second or third is needed to stop the individual then due what is necessary for your or your families safety. Just remember that not everyone shares our views and beliefs. Just saying.
 
In a real life self-defense situation, your average defensive shooter DOES NOT HAVE TIME OR CONCENTRATION ENOUGH to select, aim at, and hit one of these critical points.

I had an instructor recommend that when you're at the range (where such action is allowed, after warning others, of course,) have someone randomly do something *VERY* distracting right next to you (jab your off-arm, for example,) yelling at you constantly, when you try to shoot. Jump up and down and jog in place very fast immediately before going to the line. In a life-and-death situation, you're not going to be calm, you're going to be working on adrenaline. Practice like that once in a while, and see how bad your aim gets.

Sure, shoot out the kneecap, that's fine. *AFTER* you have put two in center mass.
 

localgirl

New member
Your attitude and your actions at the time of a shooting are going to be under more scrutiny than the actual number of bullets you put into someone. If me, a rather inexperienced female shooter, is attacked in a dark alley, and I panic and don't stop until my mag is empty, I have a better chance of defending myself in court than the guy who appeared cold and calculating to three witnesses, and calmly placed a single bullet between someone's eyes.
 

BC1

,
When something happens in close quarters you are not going to have time to aim precisely for certain body parts.
You aim for center mass! Not the knees, not the hand, not the head. Center Mass!

In very close quarters you will most likely have to start shooting just as you pull your pistol and get it level. You may not even be able to aim for center mass in a situation like this.

Check this vid out and tell me if you would have time to aim for specific body parts.
Exactly! The instructors in this thread have advised to shoot for upper or exposed COM for a reason. Practicing COM hits develops muscle memory, thus the reaction to the surprise attack is instinctive and requires no thought.

Many problems with the girl's technique. The two most improtatnt things she does wrong are:

1. She is drawing the gun from a standing position while there is clearly room to retreat and maintain the distance to the attacker. Whether or not you have a duty to retreat is irrelevent. Retreating increases distance and buys time... perhaps only a fraction of a second but that may be the difference.

2. Her draw technique got her stabbed. She did not offer a block in close quarters. She did not rotate the gun upon the pull step. Watching in slow motion one can see she brings the gun up in front of her in a long, slow arc. By rotating the gun she could have fired a speed rock and the shot would have been made much faster... if the original speed is an indicator, she lost about one second here. Speed does not come from fast hands, it comes from eliminating unnecessary motion in the draw stroke. We teach "slow is smooth and smooth is fast."

Consider the drawstroke as seven distinct steps:

- access / chest
- grip / chest
- pull / chest
- rotate / chest (begin firing if necessary)
- join (fire as necessary)
- extend (fire as necessary)
- fire

These steps should be practiced slowly until they form one fluid, SMOOTH, movement.

BC out.
 

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