Inform the officer or not when concealed carry?

[Deserteagle]

So, how can I tell which cops mean to do me harm before they do?

You cant tell which cop will do you harm, so I like to just assume they are all enemies. I cant tell who in the population will do me harm either so I assume everyone is an enemy, including friends and family.

 

[NavyLCDR]

A legally owned and possessed firearm is not contraband. I have no choice but to agree with you on the scenarios at least that a voluntary admission of legal gun possession while carrying an illegal knife is a pretty stupid thing to do and would have to agree with you that you shouldn't volunteer anything in that case since you're either knowingly or ignorantly breaking the law. But I'll also add I have a hard time believing that a smart gun carrier wouldn't be aware of a law against a particular knife and not have it on their person in the first place. I sure wouldn't want to risk a possession conviction that would probably require me to relinquish my permit.

Let me ask you this. Have you ever travelled outside of your home town? Do you know every ordinance that every municipality has that you pass through? Would you have ever guessed that an ordinary, folding blade pocket knife would be illegal to carry if it has a blade over 3 1/2 inches?

We don't have to worry about state law only. Those are usually pretty easy to deal with when it comes to firearms and weapons. But we can't possibly know every ordinance of every town and county that we might travel through. And that is EXACTLY the reason why it is best to not offer ANY information to ANY police officer that is not legally required to be offered. You might just be admitting to something you had no idea was illegal and that the officer may otherwise never have known about.

You cant tell which cop will do you harm, so I like to just assume they are all enemies.

I don't treat cops like enemies. I just don't treat them like good ol' boy hunting buddies, either.

 

[Deanimator]

You cant tell which cop will do you harm, so I like to just assume they are all enemies. I cant tell who in the population will do me harm either so I assume everyone is an enemy, including friends and family.

I don't assume they are or treat them like "enemies". I do assume that they COULD mean me harm.

I treat cops the way I treat strangers who stop me on the street for no apparent reason, politely but coldly.

I have no more desire to talk to the cops than I do to panhandlers. The odds are overwhelming that neither has anything to say of any interest to me, that anything they want me to do will, at best, benefit them and not me, and that they will lie brazenly to get me to do it.

 

[NavyLCDR]

I have no more desire to talk to the cops than I do to panhandlers. The odds are overwhelming that neither has anything to say of any interest to me, that anything they want me to do will, at best, benefit them and not me, and that they will lie brazenly to get me to do it.

Perfect assessment!

 

[Glock Fan]

Let me ask you this. Have you ever travelled outside of your home town? Do you know every ordinance that every municipality has that you pass through? Would you have ever guessed that an ordinary, folding blade pocket knife would be illegal to carry if it has a blade over 3 1/2 inches?

We don't have to worry about state law only. Those are usually pretty easy to deal with when it comes to firearms and weapons. But we can't possibly know every ordinance of every town and county that we might travel through. And that is EXACTLY the reason why it is best to not offer ANY information to ANY police officer that is not legally required to be offered. You might just be admitting to something you had no idea was illegal and that the officer may otherwise never have known about.



I don't treat cops like enemies. I just don't treat them like good ol' boy hunting buddies, either.

Good point. It is next to impossible to know every law, ordinance or statute in every jurisdiction I would pass through during my travels. I can however minimize the probability that I will run into problems with the law by doing some research before traveling and ensure that all of my "questionable" gear is "legal" in the areas I'm traveling. If in doubt, I'll properly stow the gear to minimize the possibility that I will get pinched.

Speaking from personal experience, I have not had any negative encounters due to informing the officer I was carrying. I was all for not informing the officer until I became a Utah CFP Instructor. In the class, we were told that it was not "mandatory" to inform the officer, though doing so would minimize the possibility of being treated like a "bad guy" while the officer figures things out. The agency conducting the class is the same agency that travels around the state of Utah educating the various LE Agencies of current Utah law, and where necessary re-training departments that operate contrary to current law.

Having talked to numerous LEO from various jurisdictions, the general consensus would be that they'd be a lot less likely to "prone out" a guy who informs them they're carrying, and produces the proper paperwork (where required by law), then if they were to find out on their own. Most LEO don't like "surprises". Many will be "surprised" to find a loaded gun in the waistband of some guy they're conducting a "Terry Stop" on.

Where not required by law, informing the officer is a personal decision, similar to choosing a defensive firearm. The individual will have to decide if they want to inform or not inform, as only the individual in question will be having to answer to their actions.

 

[NavyLCDR]

Many will be "surprised" to find a loaded gun in the waistband of some guy they're conducting a "Terry Stop" on.

Where not required by law, informing the officer is a personal decision, similar to choosing a defensive firearm. The individual will have to decide if they want to inform or not inform, as only the individual in question will be having to answer to their actions.

I have been frisked once by a police officer in 45 years. Why is there this need to tell the officer about a gun or a permit (when not required my law to do so) at the first opportunity when the officer approaches the window? I would guess that 99% of traffic stops that us citizens who abide by the law enough to get a CCW permit aren't going to result in exiting the vehicle and/or being frisked. So why not just wait to inform the officer when/if they ask you to exit the vehicle?

And then there is this excuse that the officer will find out about a permit anyway when he calls in your driver's license. I reply, "So what?" Once the cop finds out about your permit on the radio, now they have even less reason to ask about a gun because they know if you do possess a gun it is legal for you to do so, so why would they even ask about it after that.

Like I said, if you hand the officer your permit at the very beginning, they do not know if the permit is valid or not and still might treat any firearm as if it is illegal to posses. If they get the permit info from their dispatcher, they know it is valid and have no reason to treat any firearm as unlawful.

 

[Glock Fan]

I have been frisked once by a police officer in 45 years. Why is there this need to tell the officer about a gun or a permit (when not required my law to do so) at the first opportunity when the officer approaches the window? I would guess that 99% of traffic stops that us citizens who abide by the law enough to get a CCW permit aren't going to result in exiting the vehicle and/or being frisked. So why not just wait to inform the officer when/if they ask you to exit the vehicle?

And then there is this excuse that the officer will find out about a permit anyway when he calls in your driver's license. I reply, "So what?" Once the cop finds out about your permit on the radio, now they have even less reason to ask about a gun because they know if you do possess a gun it is legal for you to do so, so why would they even ask about it after that.

Like I said, if you hand the officer your permit at the very beginning, they do not know if the permit is valid or not and still might treat any firearm as if it is illegal to posses. If they get the permit info from their dispatcher, they know it is valid and have no reason to treat any firearm as unlawful.

Valid points, however we as citizens might not be aware of various laws, statutes or ordinances in all of the jurisdictions we pass through. There might be that one isolated case where the officer finds out about the permit from dispatch, YOU were required by law to inform, and failed to do so.

I'm not saying that what you do is right, wrong, bad, or good. I'm simply saying that it's a personal choice, and through my personal experience (approximately 5 in the last 10 years), I've never had a problem when informing the officer. In a couple of cases, the officer simply told me to "slow down" rather than issue a citation for traveling 73 in a 60mph zone.

I stress PERSONAL decision. One best left up to the individual carrying the firearm.

 

[jferg]

I agree. When you give respect to the officer and give him a heads up you shouldn't have to worry about them seeing or finding a weapon and catching them offguard. I feel telling them up front is better for every one.

 

[Deanimator]

I agree. When you give respect to the officer and give him a heads up you shouldn't have to worry about them seeing or finding a weapon and catching them offguard. I feel telling them up front is better for every one.

You mean "better for every one" like the "respect" and "heads up" that the guy from NC gave to the Fairfax County, VA PD when he notified when it wasn't required? You know, the Fairfax County PD who falsely arrested him on a variety of imaginary charges? Tell me again how that "respect" helped him?

Some people can't tell the difference between "respect" and fawning obsequiousness.

 

[Cord]

Let me ask you this. Have you ever travelled outside of your home town?

Yes, my job requires me to travel 48 weeks out of the year, and I spend most of my life in hotels. My territory is everything east of the Mississippi River except New England, and I've been doing this job for 12 years.

Do you know every ordinance that every municipality has that you pass through? Would you have ever guessed that an ordinary, folding blade pocket knife would be illegal to carry if it has a blade over 3 1/2 inches?

Sure don't know every ordinance in every municipality, any more than any cop knows every ordinance. That's not possible, and I don't think it's relevant to THIS discussion which is about legal/illegal weapon possession, which by your own statement is pretty easy to research, and your example, which is what I was commenting on, was about a gentleman who didn't even make the most basic attempt to research the law to know that he was breaking it. He unintentionally became a criminal. Prisons are full of people that didn't intend to get caught and convicted of breaking the law.

Of course I wouldn't think carrying a 3" folding knife would be illegal, but since I travel so much I will tell you specifically that I stopped carrying knives because of that very possibility. I used to keep an ASP in my car too for when I was traveling into areas that didn't respect my Constitutional right to Bear Arms and I stopped that because I found in my research about what I had to do with my pistol while traveling that knives, batons, and sometimes pepper spray was illegal in a lot of places. That's my responsibilty to make myself aware of those laws and ordinances.

We don't have to worry about state law only. Those are usually pretty easy to deal with when it comes to firearms and weapons. But we can't possibly know every ordinance of every town and county that we might travel through. And that is EXACTLY the reason why it is best to not offer ANY information to ANY police officer that is not legally required to be offered. You might just be admitting to something you had no idea was illegal and that the officer may otherwise never have known about.



I don't treat cops like enemies. I just don't treat them like good ol' boy hunting buddies, either.

Ok. Let's face it, we're never going to agree with each other about this, all I have is personal, mostly positive experiences with LEO. I don't know if I've seen a personal story of any of the "do not admit" crowd following their policy and the outcome from it. I don't have the time or the committment to google stories to "prove" my point, and finding stories of good outcomes with police is going to be impossible for me to find anyway since positive stories aren't considered newsworthy for the media, and gun owner/carriers are viewed with at least mild suspicion/nervousness by most of the general population. Negative stories about police brutality, rights violations, conspiracies etc abound because they're newsworthy and interesting to both pro police ("we" would like to point out that not all police act that way, so don't assume we all do) and anti police (See that? That's what they all want to do to us!) agendas. It is what it is, I'll stick to my view until I experience something that proves otherwise, but you all have given me a lot more to think about than I ever did before.

 

[Cord]

Only once many years ago I was requested to take out the magazine and place the weapon in the trunk until they left.
That struck me as unusual because why would someone want me to handle my firearm and work the action in front of them?

Yes this is an old post, but I had to bite and ask since nobody else did: the LEO asked you to step out of the vehicle, clear your weapon in front of him, and place it in the trunk???

If so, this LEO was dangerously stupid, and assuming all kinds of risks toward himself in my opinion, not to mention exposing you as well since a potential ambusher could see that you had been disarmed by the very police entity trying to "protect" you and jump you as soon as the moron cop left the scene. I absoloutely would have declined and asked for a supervisor in this circumstance.

2A guys would probably say he wanted to peek in your trunk without getting your direct consent for a search, but I'm just guessing.

 

[Cord]

I'm always leary about what might happen if I'm stopped for a traffic infraction and I'm either carrying or have a weapon in the vehicle (I have a CCW). Yesterday it happened.
Happened to be in an intersection waiting to turn left when the light turned red. And of course there was a deputy sheriff behind me. Immediately she turned on her lights and I was trying to figure out what I did (I was watching oncoming traffic instead of the light-and didn't see it turn red). Oh no, my greatest fears are happening!
She asked me if I saw the light turn red, then asked for my license and registration. With my license I gave her my CCW permit and told her I have a CCW but am not carrying (I was not carrying). She looked at the CCW and gave it back. Before she went back to her car to check me out she asked if I had a weapon. Again I told her I was not carrying.
OK, cool. Although I thought she was taking a long time checking me out. But then another sheriff with lights flashing pulls up behind her. Heart rate doubles. He gets out and goes to her car and talks to her. After a while he gets back in his car, and she gets out and comes up to my car and gives me a ticket.
I'm really wondering why the other officer was called to the stop. Was she wary about me? And from that I'm really leary about what would have happened if I had been carrying. Would they have made me get out of the car and searched me or taken the gun, or handcuffed me while they were giving me the ticket???

Calling for backup was a ploy for them to both get together and enjoy free coffee at the gas station after the stop. There they shared stories and laughs about how much they scared the crap out of you.

See? I really do know cops.

 

[Lucenut]

Surrendering your God-given rights is "respect"? Wow.

 

[Lucenut]

Just to clarify, the U.S. Bill of Rights (amendments to the constitution) limit the power of the U.S. federal government. It does NOT "grant" liberties, it merely recognizes God-given/natural rights.

Greg

Couldn't disagree with you more, but won't say you're wrong. I will say I think it's a HUGE leap of faith to compare all LEO to dangerous wild animals and feared apex predators. Yes, they CAN do you harm, but I don't think the vast majority would.

As far as giving up liberties, the truth is we gave up or allow our rights to be infringed upon every day (and by rights, I mean rights granted in the Bill of Rights). 1st Amendment gives us the right to peacably assemble. Yes, you have that right, but in most places you have to apply for a permit, be granted permission by a government to use that right, have the location of your assembly approved, etc, etc, etc. I could list tons of other considerations that are direct infrigements of our rights, but that's my only point.



AMEN! Couldn't agree with you more.

 

[NavyLCDR]

I don't know if I've seen a personal story of any of the "do not admit" crowd following their policy and the outcome from it.

I've been stopped four times for speeding in Washington State. One of those times I was asked to exit the vehicle. None of those times did I inform the officer of the presence of my gun. None of those times did the officer indicate in any way shape or form that it bothered him in the least that I did not inform him of a gun that he did not know about or see, even the cop who asked me to exit the vehicle and the first indication of a gun was when he saw it in the holster on my belt. 2 of the 4 times I was released with no ticket, only a verbal warning. Seems like a pretty good track record to me.

 

[Cord]

I don't know if I've seen a personal story of any of the "do not admit" crowd following their policy and the outcome from it.

I've been stopped four times for speeding in Washington State. One of those times I was asked to exit the vehicle. None of those times did I inform the officer of the presence of my gun. None of those times did the officer indicate in any way shape or form that it bothered him in the least that I did not inform him of a gun that he did not know about or see, even the cop who asked me to exit the vehicle and the first indication of a gun was when he saw it in the holster on my belt. 2 of the 4 times I was released with no ticket, only a verbal warning. Seems like a pretty good track record to me.

I'm going to speculate, but if he wasn't concerned when he discovered the weapon on your belt, wouldn't it imply the outcome would have been the same if you told him beforehand?

 

[NavyLCDR]

I'm going to speculate, but if he wasn't concerned when he discovered the weapon on your belt, wouldn't it imply the outcome would have been the same if you told him beforehand?

The outcome of that stop would not have been different, probably. I did not get a ticket that time. Does that guarantee that the other 3 times I was stopped would turn out OK if I told the cop about my gun? NO. I don't want police going "Canton Ohio" on me, so it's best if they just don't know about my gun, since it has nothing to do with a traffic stop for speeding anyway.

 

[thistle172]

There are only a few that go full blown ape nuts over legal ownership and possession of a weapon. These guys are easy enough to deal with. Simply ask for a supervisor and file a formal complaint. Follow up on the complaint with internal affairs and bad cops don't last long.

Wow. I wonder where this magical land is where bad cops don't last long, and it is "simple" to ask for a supervisor and file a complaint, and then follow up on the complaint with IA - because it sure isn't America.

 

[sprale]

Wow. I wonder where this magical land is where bad cops don't last long, and it is "simple" to ask for a supervisor and file a complaint, and then follow up on the complaint with IA - because it sure isn't America.

There is a culture of turning a blind eye to indiscretions and illegal actions among law enforcement officers. There is the occasional extreme example of an officer thrown under the bus, but the amount of damage left in the path to that point is more than any private citizen would ever be allowed to do. Bad cops tend to be the rule, not the exception these days. This is not a generalization, though is more prevalent in larger municipalities, less so in smaller communities. It's all about accountability. If a small town officer gets out of line, the community shuns them. That simply doesn't happen in places like Chicago, LA or NYC. Those places tend to recruit the worst of the worst, just like the TSA. They offer legal protection for the violent aggressors and carte blanche to violate the liberties of citizens. It takes more than a few complaints before any officer is subjected to consequences of their actions, at which point another just like them will step in to their shoes. There are the odd exceptions, but that sort of position of authority doesn't tend to attract people that hold individual liberties above the authority of the state.

When nonviolent dissent is met with excessive, violent reaction from "peacekeepers," it's no wonder the attitude is so sour toward the position. I'll consent to the rule of law, but I find less legitimacy as time goes on...

 

[NavyLCDR]

Bad cops tend to be the rule, not the exception these days. This is not a generalization, though is more prevalent in larger municipalities, less so in smaller communities.

Are you basing your statement on personal experience, or what you have read on the internet and seen on TV? Would a more accurate statement be that stories about bad cops on the internet and TV tend to be the rule, not the exception these days? I've had interactions with probably 30 law enforcement officers over the years. Only 1 has been bad.

Ooops... I do see this was posted in a thread about informing the officer or not when concealed carrying. So... I must qualify my answer with I've had interactions with probably 30 law enforcement officers over the years, but I never mentioned my CPL or my handgun.