I know some of you are going to bash me
- Thread starter itsb
- Start date
Not in Nevada, Missouri and maybe other states where it carries no force of law. Concealed means concealed
. But I think that if you and others want to stand outside a business and read all the signs or maybe you might go in and discuss your life philosophy and see if he wants you in his store 
AndeyHall
Active member
Many states' signs don't carry the force of law, they are simply indicating that if someone notices you carrying, you will be asked to leave. If you refuse to leave after being asked to then that, my friend, does carry the force of law.Not in Nevada, Missouri and maybe other states where it carries no force of law. Concealed means concealed
I don't like anyone who posts a sign on their door prohibiting concealed carry or any type of carry, but at the same time I find it to be a bit hypocritical to expect them to accept our wishes when we refuse to accept theirs simply because it holds no legal weight for you to go against it. If they have a sign you should do 1 of 2 things:
1) Go in respecting their wishes and not carrying, or (my favorite)
2) Walk away and do business elsewhere.
I've been around long enough to run into a ton of people that want to manipulate me to follow their BS rules, beliefs or whatever you want to call them while at the same time not giving a damn about what I care about. Example a store owner that does not want a honest citizen that has qualified to legally carry a concealed weapon, carrying that concealed weapon in their business. Now you tell me what common sense reason that store owner would have to want to disarm a law abiding citizen? I'm lucky enough to live in a state that thinks this store owner is an idiot and by doing so places no force of law on his BS wishes and BS signs. Now the sheep among you will take off your gun and follow the business owners rules, even though they have no force of law. Bike nut likes to talk about rights. Doubt he ever put his life on the line for them. Just a bunch of Internet BS. I just hope that the majority of the law abiding CCW holders ignore these signs that have no force of law.
Treo
Bullet Proof
In general I am up in the air over this one. First I absolutely agree that the property owner has a right to set the rules of his establishment. He doesn’t have to give you a “common sense reason” it’s his store; he’s paying the bills (AKA My house, my rules).
His sign may not have for force of law in the sense that just ignoring it is a violation but respecting his wishes is just common courtesy and basic human respect; the fact that a person refuses to give that respect while demanding it for themselves tells me everything I need to know about their upbringing and manners.
Having said that I get that me having a pistol in my pocket really isn’t doing the owner any harm, most of the time. A couple of months ago I had to go for my yearly UA. As soon as I walked into the clinic one of the MAs met me at the door and told me you can’t carry a gun in here if you have one it has to go back in your car. He didn’t even look to see if I was carrying (I was in my uniform). Since I was there on the company dime I didn’t argue I complied.
Long story short the guy told me later that some idiot from an armored car service had a negligent discharge in the clinic a month prior while trying to clear his pistol (he was being weighed for a yearly physical) and that since then they had instituted a “no guns” rule.
Sounds pretty common sense to me.
His sign may not have for force of law in the sense that just ignoring it is a violation but respecting his wishes is just common courtesy and basic human respect; the fact that a person refuses to give that respect while demanding it for themselves tells me everything I need to know about their upbringing and manners.
Having said that I get that me having a pistol in my pocket really isn’t doing the owner any harm, most of the time. A couple of months ago I had to go for my yearly UA. As soon as I walked into the clinic one of the MAs met me at the door and told me you can’t carry a gun in here if you have one it has to go back in your car. He didn’t even look to see if I was carrying (I was in my uniform). Since I was there on the company dime I didn’t argue I complied.
Long story short the guy told me later that some idiot from an armored car service had a negligent discharge in the clinic a month prior while trying to clear his pistol (he was being weighed for a yearly physical) and that since then they had instituted a “no guns” rule.
Sounds pretty common sense to me.
Treo
Bullet Proof
There, fixed it for you
The honorable thing to do would be to take your business elsewhere.
Sneaking around doesn't suit me. Just my opinion.
And why spend your money in support of someone you consider to be an idiot? Doesn't that kinda give him the last laugh?
Sent from my Xoom using Tapatalk 2
Firefighterchen
OC for Tactical Advantage
Stupid is as stupid does.
Axeanda45
Banned
Look, I get that YOU want to "be nice" and follow the property owners advice/rules, whatever.... I actually have NO PROBLEM WHATSOEVER with people complying with such RULES for any reason they want to... You can call it courtesy, whatever, more power to ya... (even though those labels are not justified)
BUT..... I have a HUGE problem with people, like you did above.. saying when I or others choose to NOT follow someones RULES that it is somehow disrespectful or not common courtesy when we do... That is utter bull right there... IF common courtesy and respect were a factor, the property owner would be the one who is disrespectful and not courteous... as HE has endangered the lives of those he disarms if something would happen where they would have been saved if they had the tools to defend themselves with....
Having an inanimate object strapped to your hip or whatever in no way shape or form infringes on anyones RIGHTS whatsoever...
Firefighterchen
OC for Tactical Advantage
The owner has not endangered anyone. If you choose to go into that store, that's your choice, he is not forcing you into the store. You have endangered yourself.
Firefighterchen
OC for Tactical Advantage
Does the 10A mean nothing? Do people have Rights not written in the Constitution?
I support their Rights, but I will not support their business if they choose to discriminate.
Those that sneak in their firearms not only do not support the property owners Rights, they also financially support the business's who are against firearms (which the owner has a Right to make on his property).
I support their Rights, but I will not support their business if they choose to discriminate.
Those that sneak in their firearms not only do not support the property owners Rights, they also financially support the business's who are against firearms (which the owner has a Right to make on his property).
CharlesMorrison
Banned
Link Removed
Sent from behind enemy lines.
Sent from behind enemy lines.
Treo
Bullet Proof
First I didn’t argue because I was there (as I said) on company time, I didn’t want them to call my boss and complain which could have cost me my job. Second I was there for a UA which means everything comes out of your pockets and you remove any jacket before you walk into the bathroom. Third, as I said earlier I have the basic human respect to honor the wishes of th eproperty owner while I'm in his "house"
As for the store owner “putting everyone else in danger” are you some how obligated to enter his place of business? Is he making you shop ay his store?
Beyond that all I can really do is restate my basic position that if you refuse to respect the wishes of the owner of the store and insist on imposing your will on him on his property (he is not imposing his will on you, you can go somewhere else to shop) then you lack basic common courtesy and are a spoiled rotten little brat.
He's paying the bills do it his way or go somewhere else
Axeanda45
Banned
Unless I have committed a crime and have been convicted of it, my RIGHT to have/carry/possess any inanimate object I wish to carry for self defense is still in effect, no matter where I am on this earth........ Have men passed "laws" or made "rules" saying the opposite? Yes they have.. but my right still remains despite these infringements simply because the right to self defense (and that right includes the tools to do it with) does NOT simply vanish once I cross an imaginary line.... AS LONG as the inanimate objects do not physically harm anyone (stay in the holster for example) then it in no way shape or form has possibly even hinted at infringing on anyone elses "Rights" no matter how much you "sheep" and "just do what they say" crowd want to say it ie... sneaking, dishonest, discourteous, whatever....
treo, You FAIL to think things through to the end... If I, as an individual of THE GENERAL PUBLIC have been INVITED ONTO someones property, my RIGHTS come with me... IF a property owner wishes to discriminate against some of the PUBLIC... and he has every right to do so... once he has decided to discriminate against a certain type/thing/person... HE NO LONGER HAS INVITED THE PUBLIC...... only certain people, and now he has in effect created a private club.. In order for a "private club" to have its "rules" broken... It needs you to agree to them before allowing you in (membership)..... UNTIL the place of business has you sign a membership form, all of your rights are still in full force... no matter what "rules" someone has...
Ever hear of Sams Club? Costco? they have "Rules" which you agree to when JOINING their club... THEN you have to abide by the rules and ONLY WHEN YOU DONT DO WHAT YOU AGREED TO are you guilty of "Sneaking", "Dishonesty", or being "discourteous", etc..... I swear some of you have no clue about reality and how it works......
Going somewhere else to shop is of no concern... I , as a member of the PUBLIC have been INVITED.... If I choose, as a member of the public to shop there, I do.... The owners "rules" are none of my concern, at least as far as my RIGHT to carry anything goes.... If you consider that a bad thing, why would that concern me? I dont give a rats azz what others think... I am not here to please others.... I am here to stay alive while shopping.... or at least have a fighting chance... Here is something else your pea brain probably cannot wrap itself around... I actually have no problem LEAVING the "store" or whatever you want to call it IF the owner somehow becomes aware of me breaking his "rules"...... figure THAT one out..... dont hurt yourself though....
treo, You FAIL to think things through to the end... If I, as an individual of THE GENERAL PUBLIC have been INVITED ONTO someones property, my RIGHTS come with me... IF a property owner wishes to discriminate against some of the PUBLIC... and he has every right to do so... once he has decided to discriminate against a certain type/thing/person... HE NO LONGER HAS INVITED THE PUBLIC...... only certain people, and now he has in effect created a private club.. In order for a "private club" to have its "rules" broken... It needs you to agree to them before allowing you in (membership)..... UNTIL the place of business has you sign a membership form, all of your rights are still in full force... no matter what "rules" someone has...
Ever hear of Sams Club? Costco? they have "Rules" which you agree to when JOINING their club... THEN you have to abide by the rules and ONLY WHEN YOU DONT DO WHAT YOU AGREED TO are you guilty of "Sneaking", "Dishonesty", or being "discourteous", etc..... I swear some of you have no clue about reality and how it works......
Going somewhere else to shop is of no concern... I , as a member of the PUBLIC have been INVITED.... If I choose, as a member of the public to shop there, I do.... The owners "rules" are none of my concern, at least as far as my RIGHT to carry anything goes.... If you consider that a bad thing, why would that concern me? I dont give a rats azz what others think... I am not here to please others.... I am here to stay alive while shopping.... or at least have a fighting chance... Here is something else your pea brain probably cannot wrap itself around... I actually have no problem LEAVING the "store" or whatever you want to call it IF the owner somehow becomes aware of me breaking his "rules"...... figure THAT one out..... dont hurt yourself though....
B
Bikenut
Guest
"Open to the public" does NOT mean the public has some kind of "right" to enter that property. "Open to the public" really means the property owner is giving his permission to enter his property ONLY to those individual members of the public who agree to abide by the rules he has that define what behavior is not allowed on/in his property. Those individual members of the "public" who do not abide by his rules do not have the property owners permission to enter or to be on/in his property.
This issue isn't about the right to bear arms... this issue boils down to whether or not a person has the permission of the property owner to enter said property whether they are bear arms or not. And whether folks like it or not... private property is private property whether that property be a home/farm/cottage or a gas station/Wal Mart/shopping mall... and a private property owner has the right to deny entry. That right to deny entry includes a property owner who has made his property "open to the public", having the right to deny permission to enter to those individual members of the public who do not obey his legal rules(*).
(*) About those "legal rules" thing.......There are laws that define classes of protected people who cannot be denied entry and what reasons people cannot be denied entry to property that is open to the public. But those who carry guns are NOT amongst those protected classes and bearing arms is NOT a protected reason.
And being on/in property without permission would be trespassing:
Trespass | LII / Legal Information Institute
Trespass
Trespass is defined by the act of knowingly entering another person’s property without permission. Such action is held to infringe upon a property owner’s legal right to enjoy the benefits of ownership. Criminal charges, which range from violation to felony, may be brought against someone who interferes with another person’s legal property rights. -snip-
"Knowingly" would mean being aware of the owner's no guns rule before entering or becoming aware by the owner requiring you to leave when you got caught carrying a gun against his rules in/on his property.
Also... anyone who enters without the owner's permission is disrespecting the property owner's rights. And it is hypocritical to disrespect the rights of another while demanding your rights be respected.
Not to mention it is rather stupid to give money to a business that has a no guns rule so the owner can get rich enough to open another business with yet another no guns rule.
This issue isn't about the right to bear arms... this issue boils down to whether or not a person has the permission of the property owner to enter said property whether they are bear arms or not. And whether folks like it or not... private property is private property whether that property be a home/farm/cottage or a gas station/Wal Mart/shopping mall... and a private property owner has the right to deny entry. That right to deny entry includes a property owner who has made his property "open to the public", having the right to deny permission to enter to those individual members of the public who do not obey his legal rules(*).
(*) About those "legal rules" thing.......There are laws that define classes of protected people who cannot be denied entry and what reasons people cannot be denied entry to property that is open to the public. But those who carry guns are NOT amongst those protected classes and bearing arms is NOT a protected reason.
And being on/in property without permission would be trespassing:
Trespass | LII / Legal Information Institute
Trespass
Trespass is defined by the act of knowingly entering another person’s property without permission. Such action is held to infringe upon a property owner’s legal right to enjoy the benefits of ownership. Criminal charges, which range from violation to felony, may be brought against someone who interferes with another person’s legal property rights. -snip-
"Knowingly" would mean being aware of the owner's no guns rule before entering or becoming aware by the owner requiring you to leave when you got caught carrying a gun against his rules in/on his property.
Also... anyone who enters without the owner's permission is disrespecting the property owner's rights. And it is hypocritical to disrespect the rights of another while demanding your rights be respected.
Not to mention it is rather stupid to give money to a business that has a no guns rule so the owner can get rich enough to open another business with yet another no guns rule.
B
Bikenut
Guest
It is a misconception that the term "open to the public" means there are no conditions attached to that invitation. The conditions for the "public" to have the owner's permission to enter/remain are the owner's rules. When an individual member of the public disobeys the owner's rules that individual has his permission to be there rescinded and he gets thrown off the property. But after that individual leaves that property is still "open to the public" contingent upon each individual member of the public obeying the owner's rules.
Hmmm.... what about the property owner's rights?
The only people, and "the public" is composed of individual people, who have the property owner's permission to enter his property are those who abide by his rules and denying entry to anyone who doesn't obey the rules is the property owner's right!
And those who do not have the property owner's permission are not allowed to enter or remain on/in the property... hence... if you don't have permission to be there neither do your rights have permission to be there so, as far as the property owner is concerned, those who do not have his permission to be there can take themselves.. and their rights right along with them... off his property.
For all practical purposes the property owner's private property right to control who has his permission to enter/remain on his property trumps all other rights because...
...when you do not have permission to be there then your rights don't have permission to be there either since you carry your rights with you as the owner throws you off his property because the property owner has the right to tell you you do not have his permission to be there.
One more time... this isn't about "open to the public" nor is it about your rights. It is all about the property owner having the private property right to be in control of who has/who hasn't his permission to enter his property.
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