How to handle an active shooter from in my book the top trainer in the country Great
- Thread starter lostone1413
- Start date
Would I do what the author suggests, I don't know, I've never been in that situation and couldn't say for sure.
I have some questions though.
How do you know the intent of the shooter? Do you know he/she will continue shooting once in the IHOP?
What was the background of the shot from the BBQ store owner? Was it the IHOP where, at 100 yards, a stray bullet could kill someone inside?
Running, even at full speed, to close the gap of the shot still takes time. The active shooter has no regard for the shots that miss his target (you) and can get them off more quickly than you.
In my CCW class I was told that I only have a legal right to shoot if I or someone I'm with is in eminent danger. Fleeing should be first. I would certainly hope that a jury wouldn't convict the BBQ owner for shooting the active shooter but that is a possibility. Even if you weren't convicted there's a cost, financial and emotional, to your family.
Without knowing the exact circumstances of the situation I am not ready to speak about what the BBQ owner did and whether it was right or wrong. I just think there are some points that aren't addressed in the article.
I have some questions though.
How do you know the intent of the shooter? Do you know he/she will continue shooting once in the IHOP?
What was the background of the shot from the BBQ store owner? Was it the IHOP where, at 100 yards, a stray bullet could kill someone inside?
Running, even at full speed, to close the gap of the shot still takes time. The active shooter has no regard for the shots that miss his target (you) and can get them off more quickly than you.
In my CCW class I was told that I only have a legal right to shoot if I or someone I'm with is in eminent danger. Fleeing should be first. I would certainly hope that a jury wouldn't convict the BBQ owner for shooting the active shooter but that is a possibility. Even if you weren't convicted there's a cost, financial and emotional, to your family.
Without knowing the exact circumstances of the situation I am not ready to speak about what the BBQ owner did and whether it was right or wrong. I just think there are some points that aren't addressed in the article.
Phillip Gain
New member
I read the article. And I'm not terribly fond of the hot air this guy is blowing. He stops just short of accusing the guy across the street of being a coward for calling the police rather than trying a 100 yard shot with his pistol (at a guy with an AK-47), or closing the gap to get a better shot. I don't care if he is supposed to be one of the "best instructors in the country," I call "SHEEP DOG" on this article.
Here's my position. (Copied and pasted from another thread.)
Here's my position. (Copied and pasted from another thread.)
I cannot emphasize enough. It boils down to situational awareness.
In most states, the standard for defending oneself is the "reasonable person" standard: If you reasonably believe you are in danger and defend yourself, your actions are covered under the law in most states. (Even if there was a misunderstanding of the alleged assailant's intent.)
However - when intervening on behalf of another, in most states the "reasonable person" standard does not apply, and your actions are weighed against the facts in evidence.
For example - you come across one person holding another at gunpoint. You draw and order him to put down his weapon...then when he refuses and the situation seems to escalate, you fire and the shot is lethal. If it turns out that the armed person was the assailant (a robber for example), then you're covered. If it turns out that the armed person was a homeowner, and the person being held at gunpoint was a would-be burglar who had been chased out of the home - then you ARE GUILTY of manslaughter at very least because your actions are weighed against facts...not against the "reasonable person" standard. (If you don't believe me - ask an attorney. I'm not going to engage in debate on this example.)
This is why it is CRITICAL to know what you're getting into. Is that woman screaming in the alley a victim? Or a prostitute? Or a robber? Or a drug addict/dealer? Is that guy a thug beating up on her? Or an undercover cop trying to make an arrest? Or a robbery victim trying to get away?
Extreme examples? Unlikely scenarios? Maybe, maybe not. But that's why I'm emphasizing that you have to BE AWARE of what you're getting into, and what the risks are, before you decide to intervene on behalf of a stranger.
In most states, the standard for defending oneself is the "reasonable person" standard: If you reasonably believe you are in danger and defend yourself, your actions are covered under the law in most states. (Even if there was a misunderstanding of the alleged assailant's intent.)
However - when intervening on behalf of another, in most states the "reasonable person" standard does not apply, and your actions are weighed against the facts in evidence.
For example - you come across one person holding another at gunpoint. You draw and order him to put down his weapon...then when he refuses and the situation seems to escalate, you fire and the shot is lethal. If it turns out that the armed person was the assailant (a robber for example), then you're covered. If it turns out that the armed person was a homeowner, and the person being held at gunpoint was a would-be burglar who had been chased out of the home - then you ARE GUILTY of manslaughter at very least because your actions are weighed against facts...not against the "reasonable person" standard. (If you don't believe me - ask an attorney. I'm not going to engage in debate on this example.)
This is why it is CRITICAL to know what you're getting into. Is that woman screaming in the alley a victim? Or a prostitute? Or a robber? Or a drug addict/dealer? Is that guy a thug beating up on her? Or an undercover cop trying to make an arrest? Or a robbery victim trying to get away?
Extreme examples? Unlikely scenarios? Maybe, maybe not. But that's why I'm emphasizing that you have to BE AWARE of what you're getting into, and what the risks are, before you decide to intervene on behalf of a stranger.
That guy is a moron. So much easier said than done. That 100 yard shot could very likely could have strayed, making you a moron and a murderer. Secondly the man with the AK is not afraid to die, obviously, which means if you go running at him and he sees you, you are his primary Target. Bob and weave all you want, he's gonna be right there with you. There's a reason why this happens CONSTANTLY and the end result is always the cops showing up. Reason 1 being our gun laws are a joke and unless we are staring down the barrel of a gun the d.a will prosecute us, hero or not. Reason 2, your family is with you and your first reaction is to get them the heck outta there.
If the armed man was inside the ihop, had a clear shot and was in danger then yes please shoot, that's a different story. Calling someone a sissy for not charging a man with an AK who's looking to die? Give me a break. Not every American is a marine
If the armed man was inside the ihop, had a clear shot and was in danger then yes please shoot, that's a different story. Calling someone a sissy for not charging a man with an AK who's looking to die? Give me a break. Not every American is a marine
lostone1413
New member
I'm with you on that. If I didn't take the shot I could never look into a mirror or get a good nite sleep again. Really if you do allot of drills a 100 yard torso shot isn't all that hard nor is a 50 yard head shot. I've trained at gunsite I'm less then 2 hr for their and I've also trained with Gabe and his instructors at different times. I have no doubt that Gabe or any of his instructors would have taken the shot. I also have no doubt that they would hit their mark.
MYGLOCK
New member
I hope there isn't a jury out there that would convict a citizen for taking action in a situation like this. I could not just watch and wait. I also wouldn't have tried to hit him at hundred yards, I carry a Glock 26 and have yet to posess that skill. Closing the gap while he is focused on the restuarnt then firing from cover would be my vote. Might buy some time till the LEOs get there.
brettnchrism
New member
Many options none wrong
I wanted to respond to this thread because my wife and I had a debate of what to do in the Ihop situation.
My first reaction was if I was inside the restuarant I would take cover and take the shot defending myself and others pretty clear cut call on that. (On a side note I have been carrying a pretty comfy Smith 642 5 shot revolver. After going through the situation in my head several times I now carry my G19 no much more diffictult to conceal but more rounds, longer sight radius I dont feel out gunned at all.)
Now with all the info given in the article if the BBQ owner saw the bad guy shoot the woman in the parking lot that was green light if he were to take action. Even if wrong I belive seeing someone shot by an obvious bad guy you are in the clear.
Now what are the options?
1. Take a shot from 100 yards at the bad guy.
2. Mount an attack and rush in closing the gap to take a better shot.
3. Call 911
4. Wait for the bad guy outside the IHOP take the shot then.
I read the responses on the writers article they are all heroes not one said they were not sure what they would do they all either took the shot or rushed in to save the day. REALLY?
I can say that after almost 20 years as a Police Officer and dealing with people everyday of my career, I find it hard to believe that anyone unless faced with that situation can honestly say what they would have done. I have seen trained Police Officers react opposite of training in very critical situation. I have been around many shooting situation both civilian and offficer involved and there were no heroes in any of the incidents.
It is impossible to say and anyone who tries to say what they would do is absent of reality. The best a person can do is be prepared for what might happen by mentally preparing for the worst and hope they react in the best interest of everyone.
The author if this article seems to hold a civilian with maybe no combat or active shooter training responsible for not taking a 100 yard shot at a armed man. REALLY?
I will be honest and say this about myself.
Even as a trained first responder and a active shooter trained retried poice officer I have no clue how I would have reacted if I were the BBQ guy. I am not the BBQ guy and would never accuse anyone of making a wrong descision in this type of critical incident. Would my thoughts be different if my family would have been a victim in the IHOP, maybe, but would have could have should have does not work in the real world.
I will never be an arm chair quarter back but will learn what I can from each incident I study, in hope that I am better prepared for what ever may come my way.
It is not contriversial at all it is an impossible question to answer as wer are all not robots, each individual is differnet and the outcomes can be a million differnt considering the variables.
One last note I noticed the author put some red dot sight on this gun pictured n his article as if this would make that 100 yard shot with a handgun possible and then I see an ad on the left for people to obtian that red dot sight. Is it by chance that this ad showed up there? you be the judge.
I wanted to respond to this thread because my wife and I had a debate of what to do in the Ihop situation.
My first reaction was if I was inside the restuarant I would take cover and take the shot defending myself and others pretty clear cut call on that. (On a side note I have been carrying a pretty comfy Smith 642 5 shot revolver. After going through the situation in my head several times I now carry my G19 no much more diffictult to conceal but more rounds, longer sight radius I dont feel out gunned at all.)
Now with all the info given in the article if the BBQ owner saw the bad guy shoot the woman in the parking lot that was green light if he were to take action. Even if wrong I belive seeing someone shot by an obvious bad guy you are in the clear.
Now what are the options?
1. Take a shot from 100 yards at the bad guy.
2. Mount an attack and rush in closing the gap to take a better shot.
3. Call 911
4. Wait for the bad guy outside the IHOP take the shot then.
I read the responses on the writers article they are all heroes not one said they were not sure what they would do they all either took the shot or rushed in to save the day. REALLY?
I can say that after almost 20 years as a Police Officer and dealing with people everyday of my career, I find it hard to believe that anyone unless faced with that situation can honestly say what they would have done. I have seen trained Police Officers react opposite of training in very critical situation. I have been around many shooting situation both civilian and offficer involved and there were no heroes in any of the incidents.
It is impossible to say and anyone who tries to say what they would do is absent of reality. The best a person can do is be prepared for what might happen by mentally preparing for the worst and hope they react in the best interest of everyone.
The author if this article seems to hold a civilian with maybe no combat or active shooter training responsible for not taking a 100 yard shot at a armed man. REALLY?
I will be honest and say this about myself.
Even as a trained first responder and a active shooter trained retried poice officer I have no clue how I would have reacted if I were the BBQ guy. I am not the BBQ guy and would never accuse anyone of making a wrong descision in this type of critical incident. Would my thoughts be different if my family would have been a victim in the IHOP, maybe, but would have could have should have does not work in the real world.
I will never be an arm chair quarter back but will learn what I can from each incident I study, in hope that I am better prepared for what ever may come my way.
It is not contriversial at all it is an impossible question to answer as wer are all not robots, each individual is differnet and the outcomes can be a million differnt considering the variables.
One last note I noticed the author put some red dot sight on this gun pictured n his article as if this would make that 100 yard shot with a handgun possible and then I see an ad on the left for people to obtian that red dot sight. Is it by chance that this ad showed up there? you be the judge.
tuts40
New member
I find it difficult to understand how guys (nobody in particular here so don't anyone get panty-twisted) will poo-poo tactical considerations presented by the likes of Gabe Suarez. Having said that I don't know how I'd react if at a IHOP like situation, honestly, until I'm in that situation.
For one thing I do not have the upgraded trigger connector, slide/sight arrangement he touts at his online store, etc. Makes me wanna re-think my handgun choice! So, I'm gunna crack open a cold one and, yes, think... ;-)
For one thing I do not have the upgraded trigger connector, slide/sight arrangement he touts at his online store, etc. Makes me wanna re-think my handgun choice! So, I'm gunna crack open a cold one and, yes, think... ;-)
Tucker's Mom
New member
I'll take care of the ribs. Move over...there's more beer in the fridge. LOL
Thank you Phillip Gain. Every comment right on and to the point. SA all the way! You stay out of trouble you will not get in any trouble. If the scenario does not include you as the potential victim, you had better be 100% certain before you get into the middle of things. In SC we have the alter ego rule, which allows you to act in a situation that does not involve you--sounds great but if you are wrong in your assumptions and presumptions, you have a very big problem--probably legally, but certainly civilly.
Banging off shots with a handgun at 100 yards trying to hit a guy with a rifle will just not accomplish anything at best and hit a bystander at worst. One could theorize to cross the distance and engage but dashing into a building with people running from hither to yonder and trying to locate and engage the gunman ... I am not sure if that's a good proposition.
Honestly, I am not sure what I would have done in that situation. Certainly if I'd been in the IHOP and saw the guy walking in and shoot I may have shot back, but I have never been shot at so it's all talk at this point.
Honestly, I am not sure what I would have done in that situation. Certainly if I'd been in the IHOP and saw the guy walking in and shoot I may have shot back, but I have never been shot at so it's all talk at this point.
I too do not know exactly what I would do. But here are the things I would consider before acting. An answer of no ends the evaluation.
Is it really and unambiguously a bad guy? - in the described circumstances, yes.
If a round misses the BG, what/who will it hit. Into the iHop = no.
Do I believe my skills and weapon are capable of stopping him from my position without endangering others. yes or no.
If no to this, can I improve my position so it is a yes.
Am I likely to simply be shot if I try to improve my position?
Relative armament. If I expend the rounds on my person, without succeeding in dropping the BG, will I be fairly certain I will die. This is where you get to pick after evaluating your skills and circumstance.
At some point you have to consider the odds of self-preservation. You may choose based on whatever motivation you are experiencing. What happens to your family if you die or are disabled?
Whatever you choice; remember this has to be treated as to the death. No polite "drop your weapon", I can't shoot him in the back, etc.
Is it really and unambiguously a bad guy? - in the described circumstances, yes.
If a round misses the BG, what/who will it hit. Into the iHop = no.
Do I believe my skills and weapon are capable of stopping him from my position without endangering others. yes or no.
If no to this, can I improve my position so it is a yes.
Am I likely to simply be shot if I try to improve my position?
Relative armament. If I expend the rounds on my person, without succeeding in dropping the BG, will I be fairly certain I will die. This is where you get to pick after evaluating your skills and circumstance.
At some point you have to consider the odds of self-preservation. You may choose based on whatever motivation you are experiencing. What happens to your family if you die or are disabled?
Whatever you choice; remember this has to be treated as to the death. No polite "drop your weapon", I can't shoot him in the back, etc.
Phillip Gain
New member
I did a little homework on Gabe Suarez. Apparently he was a 15-year SWAT guy before his back went out. He also has a conviction on fraud charges.
While I can respect his service as a police officer, and while I can (maybe) understand the temptation to defraud "the man" - this isn't someone I'll be looking to for ethics advice as an everyday joe carrying a firearm for self defense.
I am a lifelong firearms enthusiast. I'm an Army Reserve veteran who never saw combat (but always shot expert). And I am a humble NRA-certified instructor.
I am not SWAT. I am not SpecOps. I am not a sniper. Most likely, neither are most of the people reading this post. It is to those people, the everyday-Joes and everyday-Janes, that I gear my instruction.
By all means, if you have SWAT, SpecOps, Sniper, or other such FIRSTHAND training, feel free to disregard my remarks.
Deserteagle
New member
If you are not immediately involved in this situation and you decide to involve yourself in it, you are risking a lot, and you may just become another victim to add to the death toll. Think about the Hollywood bank robbery in the 90's with the 2 people with body armor and AK47s. If you were across the street and not involved, but decide your little handgun is going to save the world, you would die as soon as your little bullet bounces off their armor that you didnt know they had, and their 7.62 armor piercing rounds (yes they had those) would rip right through you, when you could have not involved yourself and lived another day.
tuts40
New member
Word, yo. Dat's mah point.
I dunno Tuts. I've never heard of the author before so I don't know his background but the whole articl screams Sheapdog! i practice as much as my time permits but a hundred yard shot on a moving target with a hand gun towards an IHOP with people in it? That just sound like an opportunity to be the one that kills the first victim thorough the front windows of the IHOP.
As far as the tactical considerations, I take situational awareness seriously to the point sometimes it pisses the missus off but, I'm not sure, short of the 911 call what I would do but I can darned well tellyou it won't be a 100 yard pistol shot towards a crowded resturant.
So... how much beer ya got?
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