Nick Burkhardt
New member
That is what this P.I. says you should do after a self defense shooting.
Flee the scene, don't call 911 yourself, make no statement to the police?
- Thread starter Nick Burkhardt
- Start date
Did not know what to expect with the thread title but the video is, IMO, an interesting commentary on your post-defense shooting actions. Would love to see what others will say as this thread matures. Not so sure about running away and taking evidence with you but asking for a lawyer and keeping your mouth shut seems to be be pretty good advice. Remember the police are not there to protect you--you did that already--they are there to investigate and all bets are off on what they perceive as the actual events.
OUTTAHERE
New member
Interesting take on how to handle a self defense shooting. I agree with most advice he offers except his basic premise about fleeing the scene. To me, that seems like a VERY bad idea. As does taking the attacker's weapons(s) with you when you flee the scene. I believe that would be considering tampering with evidence at the very least. Also, at first he says that only 1% of the population can afford a defense attorney to handle their case and then he turns around and says "get a lawyer".
Here in Texas we have a group of lawyers that are trial lawyers experienced in defending people in situations like this. It's name is Texas Law Shield and what they offer for an annual fee is complete representation anywhere in the state for all members at no expense. To me, it's one of the best investments one can make if one is a CCW individual.
So, if I'm involved in a self defense shooting I would immediately make the call to their 24 hr. emergency phone number, tell them I need their assistance and then shut up and take a ride downtown and wait for them to handle it from there on. No comments, no statements, no conversation at all regarding anything to do with the incident. Like this man says, KEEP YOUR MOUTH SHUT.
Here in Texas we have a group of lawyers that are trial lawyers experienced in defending people in situations like this. It's name is Texas Law Shield and what they offer for an annual fee is complete representation anywhere in the state for all members at no expense. To me, it's one of the best investments one can make if one is a CCW individual.
So, if I'm involved in a self defense shooting I would immediately make the call to their 24 hr. emergency phone number, tell them I need their assistance and then shut up and take a ride downtown and wait for them to handle it from there on. No comments, no statements, no conversation at all regarding anything to do with the incident. Like this man says, KEEP YOUR MOUTH SHUT.
BC1
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Here's the advice from the NRA as taught in it's personal protection courses:
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Do not flee the scene. Flight is seen as guilt. Call 911 and tell the operator here has been a shooting and please send an ambulance and police... that's all. Do not provide any information about the incident. Do not answer the operators questions. Describe yourself so LE knows who you are when they arrive.
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Do not provide first-aid to the perp. You shot him for a reason. He may be feigning injury. He may still be dangerous.
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Do not let anyone tamper with the crime scene. Keep it secure. Friends of the perp may be tempted to remove a weapon. make sure you put your gun down as LE arrives.
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When questioned advise LE that you were threatened, felt you were in danger of death or great bodily harm from the attacker and defended yourself accordingly. THAT'S IT! Advise police that you will fully cooperate and answer all their questions as soon as you have a chance to consult with an attorney. Don't get roped into answering any questions. You are under great stress right now and anything you say may used against you. LEO are given this very opportunity when involved in a shooting. Their co-workers generally wisk them away from the scene. They don't answer questions until after the PBA and an attorney are involved. Ask for the same courtesy and SHUT YOUR MOUTH.
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Don't be surprised if you're arrested. LEO aren't the sharpest tool in the shed. They generally don't know the law very well. The DA's office will likely impanel a grand jury to decide if the shooting was justified.
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Do not flee the scene. Flight is seen as guilt. Call 911 and tell the operator here has been a shooting and please send an ambulance and police... that's all. Do not provide any information about the incident. Do not answer the operators questions. Describe yourself so LE knows who you are when they arrive.
.
Do not provide first-aid to the perp. You shot him for a reason. He may be feigning injury. He may still be dangerous.
.
Do not let anyone tamper with the crime scene. Keep it secure. Friends of the perp may be tempted to remove a weapon. make sure you put your gun down as LE arrives.
.
When questioned advise LE that you were threatened, felt you were in danger of death or great bodily harm from the attacker and defended yourself accordingly. THAT'S IT! Advise police that you will fully cooperate and answer all their questions as soon as you have a chance to consult with an attorney. Don't get roped into answering any questions. You are under great stress right now and anything you say may used against you. LEO are given this very opportunity when involved in a shooting. Their co-workers generally wisk them away from the scene. They don't answer questions until after the PBA and an attorney are involved. Ask for the same courtesy and SHUT YOUR MOUTH.
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Don't be surprised if you're arrested. LEO aren't the sharpest tool in the shed. They generally don't know the law very well. The DA's office will likely impanel a grand jury to decide if the shooting was justified.
tcox4freedom
New member
IMHO; You should only flee the scene if you feel your life is still endanger. (You could very well still be endanger in some situations and places.)
Call 911 ASAP but give the basic information needed to get an officer and/or ambulance on the scene.
Then, no matter what questions the 911 operator may throw at you share only the minimum information while re-emphasizing that you are the VICTIM and you had to defend yourself.
As long as you make it clear that you feel you are still very much endanger because of a BG's friends or increasing crowd violence, you should be able to remove yourself to a safe place and wait for law enforcement to meet you. (This actually happens everyday.)
But, if you don't make it clear to 911 that you don't feel safe remaining at the scene, or if you fail to call 911 ASAP, you will be more likely to face a lot more suspicion from LE.
Once the officers arrive, do EVERYTHING in you power to cooperate without incriminating yourself. Obey all commands immediately! Keep your mouth SHUT; except for three things-
I'm not an attorney so this is just my 02c. But, I do know 1st hand the legal trouble that leaving the scene after you had to defend yourself and "not" calling 911 first can cause you if you aren't careful. Personally, I would never recommend leaving unless you are still endanger. Nor, would I recommend letting anyone else (except maybe your spouse or friend), call 911. However, I would recommend being the FIRST to call 911 if at all possible.
Regardless of who calls first, make sure you or someone that was a witness that represents you is on the phone with 911 ASAP! We all have seen what happens when a BG has his pals call 911 and they are the only ones reporting what happened. We all know what MSM will be doing non-stop for days & weeks to come if there is no counter 911 or witness reports to what pookie's mom & pals will be saying.
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Contrary to popular belief- NO LEO wants a victim of a violent crime to remain in the danger zone "IF" they aren't safe!
Call 911 ASAP but give the basic information needed to get an officer and/or ambulance on the scene.
911 Operator: "911 operator. What is the state of your emergency?"
Me: "I was robbed. I was attacked and I had to defend myself. I need an ambulance and a police officer. I feel my life may still be endanger please hurry. I am a (give a detailed description of your self and where you will be at when officers arrive.) Please do NOT shoot me! I am the VICTIM of an attack and I had to defend myself. I am scared please hurry! My life still may be endanger! I am a GG. I was attacked and I had to defend myself. Please don't shoot me. I am afraid please help me. Hurry! Please Hurry! I am a _____________ I'm wearing ____________ I am standing ___________ I looking & listening for sirens! Where are you? Please hurry! I need your help! I'm afraid!"
Then, no matter what questions the 911 operator may throw at you share only the minimum information while re-emphasizing that you are the VICTIM and you had to defend yourself.
As long as you make it clear that you feel you are still very much endanger because of a BG's friends or increasing crowd violence, you should be able to remove yourself to a safe place and wait for law enforcement to meet you. (This actually happens everyday.)
But, if you don't make it clear to 911 that you don't feel safe remaining at the scene, or if you fail to call 911 ASAP, you will be more likely to face a lot more suspicion from LE.
Once the officers arrive, do EVERYTHING in you power to cooperate without incriminating yourself. Obey all commands immediately! Keep your mouth SHUT; except for three things-
1. Ask to be taken to the hospital for observation because you are not sure the state of any possible injuries you may have suffered. (Shock is a REAL danger when you have go through the trauma of a violent crime.)
2. Ask to contact an attorney before any official statement can be given on the event. It doesn't do any harm to tell the investigating or arresting officers that you don't feel a beneficial statement can be made in your current mental state.
3. Ask LEO's, EMT's and hospital personnel to contact your spouse or emergency contact person ASAP.
2. Ask to contact an attorney before any official statement can be given on the event. It doesn't do any harm to tell the investigating or arresting officers that you don't feel a beneficial statement can be made in your current mental state.
3. Ask LEO's, EMT's and hospital personnel to contact your spouse or emergency contact person ASAP.
I'm not an attorney so this is just my 02c. But, I do know 1st hand the legal trouble that leaving the scene after you had to defend yourself and "not" calling 911 first can cause you if you aren't careful. Personally, I would never recommend leaving unless you are still endanger. Nor, would I recommend letting anyone else (except maybe your spouse or friend), call 911. However, I would recommend being the FIRST to call 911 if at all possible.
Regardless of who calls first, make sure you or someone that was a witness that represents you is on the phone with 911 ASAP! We all have seen what happens when a BG has his pals call 911 and they are the only ones reporting what happened. We all know what MSM will be doing non-stop for days & weeks to come if there is no counter 911 or witness reports to what pookie's mom & pals will be saying.
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vernsimpson
New member
I must disagree with you on what you are telling the 911 operator. IMHO you are giving to much info out before talking to an attorney.
I would call 911 and say only what the NRA and my instructor said. Simply state that there was a shooting and send an ambulance and the police. Keep the area secure and your weapon out. When you see or hear the police arrive then lay your gun on the ground, back away and get on your knees with your hands behind your head or raised. When questioned then ONLY say that you will answer and cooperate fully after to consulate with an attorney.
My Instructor gave us names and numbers of Attorneys who he said would be good for this situation.
I would NEVER leave the scene unless there was a very good threat!!! I would also not handle the attackers weapon. I would only move it away with my foot to separate the weapon from the BG!
That is what I would do. But every situation is different. As some General said at one time, "Your battle plan changes after the first shot!"
Nick Burkhardt
New member
I think that the PI is trying to convey "Don't admit to anything". If you do the whole I was in fear for my life speal and admit to shooting the bad guy, the cops will arrest and book you based on that confession then let the DA sort it out.
BC1
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When dealing with LE say nothing. The more you say the more likely you'll talk yourself into handcuffs. The reason we recommend this is because persons involved in a violent confrontation will not remember or describe the events with accuracy. The is due to a variety of psychological and physiological effects. Something not explained correctly may lead to your arrest. It's the innocent who need an attorney. Let the guilty lie for themselves.
apvbguy
New member
here in FLA a case just wrapped up regarding a "self defense" shooting where the shooter fled the scene and was found because of security camera tapes. one of the main reasons given for his murder conviction was the fact that he fled the scene and did not report the shooting. My feeling is that if you find the need to use deadly force and then find yourself under attack from confederates or bystanders the wisest thing to do would be to get away from the scene to a more secure location and then make a report. YMMV
bowserb
New member
In one of his books, Massad Ayoob talks about a case where he was called as an expert witness. The CCW holder brandished his weapon when confronted by a perp, who was clearly intent on doing him harm ("I'll whip your ass. I'll kill you!) He was charged when one of the gang called 911 about some guy threatening them with a gun. It cost the guy a lot of money and took eleven months out of his life before he was acquitted. As Ayoob says, "the criminal justice system is geared on the assumption that whoever calls first is the complainant, the victim."
While I like a lot of what the PI says about not talking, I think running away from the scene could be a recipe for disaster. "911. What is your emergency?" "Some guy shot my friend and took off in a brown Toyota." What will it cost you to get out of that one? I would think, if it is too dangerous to stay, you should call 911 while you slink away, "I've been attacked. The attacker is down but I believe he has a gang coming after me. I'm [description] and will be heading west on South Boulevard in a brown Toyota until I see a police car. I'll stay on the line until I see the car." Something like that. Then shut up and call your previously arranged attorney.
While I like a lot of what the PI says about not talking, I think running away from the scene could be a recipe for disaster. "911. What is your emergency?" "Some guy shot my friend and took off in a brown Toyota." What will it cost you to get out of that one? I would think, if it is too dangerous to stay, you should call 911 while you slink away, "I've been attacked. The attacker is down but I believe he has a gang coming after me. I'm [description] and will be heading west on South Boulevard in a brown Toyota until I see a police car. I'll stay on the line until I see the car." Something like that. Then shut up and call your previously arranged attorney.
JCliff
New member
BC1's advice is right in the x-ring. I believe the NRA curriculum on this is very sound. Do not leave/flee the scene, unless it is clear to you that remaining would keep you in grave danger. If you must leave, call 911 as soon as you are able. Do not tamper with the scene, don't let others tamper with it. Other than stating that you defended yourself when threatened with loss of life/grievous bodily injury, say NOTHING else about your case until you have consulted with your attorney and he/she is present during questioning.
Seamsealer
Member
Here is some good info from a police officer. Good read.
Street robberies and you - The Basics - AR15.COM
Street robberies and you - The Basics - AR15.COM
It all depends.
I have seen a few clips were leaving the area was a good idea.
One was a gas station were a guy was attacked, he shot a bad guy and a number of people came to the station. He was the only white guy. He left and called 911 while driving to a safer location. I believe if he had not left the area he would have been on a morgue slab.
I believe that is about the time this clip came out.
I have seen a few clips were leaving the area was a good idea.
One was a gas station were a guy was attacked, he shot a bad guy and a number of people came to the station. He was the only white guy. He left and called 911 while driving to a safer location. I believe if he had not left the area he would have been on a morgue slab.
I believe that is about the time this clip came out.
BC1
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This guy is way off base. I read until I hit "Dynamics of Encounters - Hold up men target victims on the street in an impulsive, opportunistic manner. They see someone and make a quick judgment call on whether to rob them."
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Mostly untrue. Career criminals can be quite good at their job. They watch, they plan, they act. There is something called an OODA loop to describe the processes. A car-jacker, robber or burglar will generally Observe, Orient, Decide and the Act. He observes the situation to determine a possible target or opportunity. He orients himself to the environment, the people, etc. Based on this he either decides he'll act or not. In the event the timing is right he acts.
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What is being described in the article is a mix of perp types. The mentally ill, tweekers, meth and crack addicts will be more impulsive. They lack impulse control. In many cases a result of the drugs is impairment of the frontal lobe, which controls impulse. The career criminal takes a more professional approach identified by his OODA loop.
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Nothing is better than personal experience but this guy is dead wrong.
This is a topic that comes up a lot. On Defensive carry.com and THR I've heard input form police officer that have responded to defensive shootings and one thing that they say a lot is that the person that did the shooting (assuming self defense) is usually such a bundle of nerves that they can't get him/her to shut up .
They also say that when the shooter is in blabbermouth mode they tend to get facts wrong or out of order or they (unintentionally) say things that don't match the physical evidence on the scene and that causes them problems.
The most common recommendation is to keep your comments to a bare minimum.
I like what Massad Ayoob has to say on this topic
Make a short victim statement " Officer that man tried to kill me I was forced to fire in self defense."
Point out witnesses "Those people right there saw the whole thing"
Point out evidence " There is the bad guy's gun".
Then shut up " I'm sorry but I'm really shook up right now. I will cooperate fully after I have a chance to speak to my lawyer."
He doesn't say this but I do "If at any time during the process the police read you your rights SHUT UP THEN AND THERE and ask for a lawyer."
They also say that when the shooter is in blabbermouth mode they tend to get facts wrong or out of order or they (unintentionally) say things that don't match the physical evidence on the scene and that causes them problems.
The most common recommendation is to keep your comments to a bare minimum.
I like what Massad Ayoob has to say on this topic
Make a short victim statement " Officer that man tried to kill me I was forced to fire in self defense."
Point out witnesses "Those people right there saw the whole thing"
Point out evidence " There is the bad guy's gun".
Then shut up " I'm sorry but I'm really shook up right now. I will cooperate fully after I have a chance to speak to my lawyer."
He doesn't say this but I do "If at any time during the process the police read you your rights SHUT UP THEN AND THERE and ask for a lawyer."
Seamsealer
Member
The guy posted his stories as he saw them, he was law enforcement, if I had to guess. One post calls BS and the other one dead wrong. Well, good luck to you guys, I'm out of here, have a great day.
BC1
,
Certified PP instructors will include more than gun fighting in a PP class. In fact the bulk of the courses include many topics, leaving the fight as the tool of last resort. Most courses will delve into the world of the offender, his motives and methods. Certified instructors are schooled in this area as part of their certification. And then again, some of us grew-up around the hood and saw a lot.
I speak 19 languages and hold a Ph.D. in economics, politics, astrophysics, engineering and French Literature.
See how easy that was?
tcox4freedom
New member
No need to go away mad. I've seen that article several times. Some of it I'm fine with. But, anytime someone goes into "definites", "absolutes" or makes a lot of broad generalized statements they may get called on it.
Two of the things that I will question (seriously question), are all street encounters happen because a BG makes a snap split second decision. The fact is many, many different things may happen or be considered prior to a BG choosing a victim. There are certain cues that most bad guys (even amateurs), will look for when making their choice. Opportunity is only one of them.
The other big issue is his advice to indicate you have a gun. That could get you instantly killed if the BG already has the drop on you. The correct body language & proper eye contact may be a better "First Choice". There is nothing wrong with indicating you will NOT be an easy mark. but, if a BG has a gun on you and you think you can FAKE them out, you need to understand that it may not work. (So then what?)
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