Flash bang in botched no knock raid lands in baby's crib….

[BluesStringer]

Then you have the family. There was some mention about the 30 year old being kicked out but then mention of him coming and going. I find it hard to believe someone is dealing meth from a house you are staying in for a couple months and you not knowing what is happening. Did they think the community celebrated Halloween everyday but by some coincidence all the trick or treaters were dressed like zombies? I have heard too many stories about how the family claimed he was a good kid and would never do anything bad just to find out the kid is an outright thug.

Long story short. The police managed to kick in the door at the correct address. From there I don't have enough information to know who is mostly at fault but I'm fairly certain there is plenty of blame to be shared by all involved. If my house burned down and I need to move my wife and kids in with relatives I will leave as soon as I suspect there are drugs being sold at that location. Their safety is my responsibility and I'm not going take that chance.

From the OP link:

The nephew had been kicked out of the house and when he started coming and going, Phonesavanh said the family grew worried.

“We were trying to get out as soon as I knew what was going on,… we just wanted to get out,” Phonesavanh said. The family was planning on leaving the home the next morning.

“My son’s old playpen was right outside because we were getting ready to leave, we were going to throw it away… it was very, very visible,” Phonesavanh said.

“They can’t tell me there was no signs of kids,” Phonesavanh said. “My van sits right next to the door that they busted into. My van has family stickers on it, four car seats inside, right next to the door that they kicked in,” Phonesavanh said.

Mom didn't say a word about what a "good kid" her nephew was. She was trying to bail as fast as she could. Apparently she took a few hours too long to get out and avoid the barbs from badgefluffers across the country who are, "...fairly certain there is plenty of blame to be shared by all involved."

As an innocent victim of the war on drugs being waged on the citizens of a once-free nation, I'm sure Ms. Phonesavanh appreciates your "balanced" approach to this case.

Blues

 

[BluesStringer]

So you think we the police department should call ahead of time to schedule and appointment with the suspect after they have obtained a warrant. Then follow that up with a reminder letter sent by certified mail. Drive by their house the day before with a giant neon sign telling them they will be served a warrant tomorrow at 2:30pm. Show up about 2:00 give them a hand job and then finally at about 2:40 make their entrance fashionably late and hope to find whatever it is they are searching for.

Look idiot, I already said what I think they should do - announce and identify themselves. They can have all the ballistic shields and body armor they need to protect themselves from armed occupants willing to shoot it out with them, but no-knock warrants will always lead to more events like this one than announcing and identifying will lead to gun battles.

Take your badgefluffing smart-assed remarks and stick 'em where the sun don't shine.

Blues

 

[Paul_of_TX]

Then we are back to personal responsibility. They were in the house for 2 months. My kids will not be in a house even 2 hours after I suspect there are drug deals going down much less weeks or months.

Those things were said after the fact. Just like the families who talk about how good the kid was who committed some crime. The mom never said he was a good kid but she stayed there in the house so the kid was good enough in her opinion to stay there and keep her kids there.

It all comes back to personal responsibly and that goes for the people in law enforcement and the family.

 

[BC1]

Sure thing. That stuff about being "...secure in their persons, houses, papers and effects..." is perfectly consistent with a toddler having a flash-bang grenade lobbed into its crib during delivery of a no-knock warrant, right? What does the word "secure" mean constitutionally-speaking if you can't even demand that the government announce and identify themselves before breaking into your home? Anything goes once a warrant has been "obtained," right?

Blues

What about that child's rights? Do they think his rights don't matter? He has the right to be free from harm imposed by the government and police who are sworn to PROTECT and serve. The lawsuit needs to be brought and it needs to be a bank-buster. These police agencies have nearly unlimited investigative resources. Yet their intelligence is so bad they don't know they're lobbing a grenade into a room where a baby is sleeping?
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From Black's Law Dictionary:
.

NEGLIGENCE. The omission to do something which a reasonable man, guided by those considerations which ordinarily regulate the conduct of human affairs, would do. or doing something which a prudent and reasonable man would not do. It must be determined in all cases by reference to the situation and knowledge of the parties and all the attendant circumstances. Nitroglycerin Case, 15 Wall. 536, 21 I* Ed. 206; Blythe v. Birmingham Waterworks Co., 11 Evch. 7S4. Negligence, in its civil relation, is such an inadvertent imperfection, by a responsible human agent, In the discharge of a legal duty, as immediately produces, in an ordinary and natural sequence, a damage to another. Wiart. Neg.​

 

[gunnerbob]

The police went to the correct house; a house where a drug dealer was dealing meth. The blame falls mostly on the dealer.

~snip~

How exactly is it "mostly" the suspects fault? Did he choose to conduct a no-knock raid instead of apprehend the man out in public, which is much easier? Did he not take the time to ensure that there were no other innocents at the residence, specifically that the room where the flash-bang would be thrown had an infant in it? Other than being suspected of dealing meth, it seems to me that the suspect has very little blame for the outcome of this situation.

The SWAT team was in a hurry, careless and just wanted use their toys. They should have knocked and announced, these raids cause more harm than good.

 

[BC1]

Look idiot, I already said what I think they should do - announce and identify themselves. They can have all the ballistic shields and body armor they need to protect themselves from armed occupants willing to shoot it out with them, but no-knock warrants will always lead to more events like this one than announcing and identifying will lead to gun battles.

Take your badgefluffing smart-assed remarks and stick 'em where the sun don't shine.

Blues

I don't like this at all. So if they get the street or house number wrong will my family be killed by Barney Fife playing tough guy? Those of us who aren't criminals would believe someone kicking-in our door would be a home invasion. We aren't expecting Barney. Many of us may shoot before we realize who these asses are. And since they have the fire power and body armor we lose the fight. I don't want to take a dirt nap because Barney Fife's penmanship is poor. Gee, does that say 2617 Smith Drive or 2517 Smith Drive? Damn fools.

 

[Paul_of_TX]

I agree with you guys that there seems to be absolutely no reason for a no-knock raid in this particular instance. This no-knock raid looks to be over zealous military wannabe law officers getting their kicks by taking down some peasant citizens knowing they will never have to answer for their actions. With the fact that nothing was found during the search I hope their hides are nailed to the wall for harming the infant.

If they went to the wrong house or it turns out there was never any drug dealing going on then the blame is all on the cops. Otherwise people have to take responsibility for their actions and inaction.

 

[gunnerbob]

I don't like this at all. So if they get the street or house number wrong will my family be killed by Barney Fife playing tough guy? Those of us who aren't criminals would believe someone kicking-in our door would be a home invasion. We aren't expecting Barney. Many of us may shoot before we realize who these asses are. And since they have the fire power and body armor we lose the fight.

This is the very reason why no-knock raids must end, they are more harmful than beneficial. It blows my mind when a SWAT team blasts their way into a home, scaring the sh!t out of the occupants who in a panic go for their weapon (as reasonable people would), and are in turn gunned down by the police... AND PEOPLE STAND UP FOR THE POLICE!

 

[gunnerbob]

I agree with you guys that there seems to be absolutely no reason for a no-knock raid in this particular instance. This no-knock raid looks to be over zealous military wannabe law officers getting their kicks by taking down some peasant citizens knowing they will never have to answer for their actions. With the fact that nothing was found during the search I hope their hides are nailed to the wall for harming the infant.

If they went to the wrong house or it turns out there was never any drug dealing going on then the blame is all on the cops. Otherwise people have to take responsibility for their actions and inaction.

Absolutely! The officers involved, whether there was meth found or not, seriously maimed an infant and must be punished. It's much like being downrange, I must be 100% positive of who/what my target is before I engage. If I was to make a mistake, regardless of how 'well-intentioned' I was... I was wrong and killed an innocent person. LEOs should have zero wiggle-room, the standard must be absolute, otherwise it's useless.

 

[BluesStringer]

What about that child's rights? Do they think his rights don't matter? He has the right to be free from harm imposed by the government and police who are sworn to PROTECT and serve. The lawsuit needs to be brought and it needs to be a bank-buster. These police agencies have nearly unlimited investigative resources. Yet their intelligence is so bad they don't know they're lobbing a grenade into a room where a baby is sleeping?
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From Black's Law Dictionary:
.

NEGLIGENCE. The omission to do something which a reasonable man, guided by those considerations which ordinarily regulate the conduct of human affairs, would do. or doing something which a prudent and reasonable man would not do. It must be determined in all cases by reference to the situation and knowledge of the parties and all the attendant circumstances. Nitroglycerin Case, 15 Wall. 536, 21 I* Ed. 206; Blythe v. Birmingham Waterworks Co., 11 Evch. 7S4. Negligence, in its civil relation, is such an inadvertent imperfection, by a responsible human agent, In the discharge of a legal duty, as immediately produces, in an ordinary and natural sequence, a damage to another. Wiart. Neg.​

I agree with everything you say above BC, but the problem is much broader than negligence employed during the serving of a singular no-knock warrant. The problem is systemic, starting with the notion by a gaggle of black-robed servants of The People that The People's Constitution gives them the power to authorize cops to victimize The People. Only cops, judges and apologists for cops and judges could ever conceive of such a notion that when the words, "We, The People of the United States, in order to form a more perfect Union, establish justice, insure domestic tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general welfare, and secure the blessings of liberty to ourselves and our posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America" were penned, it gave the Supreme Court and law enforcement the authority to disregard nearly everything that followed those words.

The hacks that run this government and send their revenue-generating freakin' pirates out to wage war on us "for our own good" are not "negligent," they are criminals. Until they're treated as such, and The People - their victims - quit having to pay through taxes the freight for their crimes couched as civil "negligence," then none of us are safe and the double, triple, quadruple, heck, to infinity taxation will continue.

The beatings will continue until morale improves, and it's even beyond iffy if they'll stop after that.

Blues

 

[Paul_of_TX]

This is the very reason why no-knock raids must end, they are more harmful than beneficial. It blows my mind when a SWAT team blasts their way into a home, scaring the sh!t out of the occupants who in a panic go for their weapon (as reasonable people would), and are in turn gunned down by the police... AND PEOPLE STAND UP FOR THE POLICE!

I doubt it will end until someone is held criminally responsible and I fear that will never happen. I can't say that there should never be any reason for no knock raids but they are far to common. It is clearly safer to arrest someone by surprise in public. This is what usually happens when they are dealing a dangerous criminal because it is safer for all involved. It seems that when they are not dealing with a dangerous criminal they feel it is safe to conduct a no-knock raid and that is ridiculous. It is simply smarter to only serve a warrant at a residence if you can knock on the door and serve the warrant. If that can't be done serve them by surprise in public.

 

[ezkl2230]

I agree with you guys that there seems to be absolutely no reason for a no-knock raid in this particular instance. This no-knock raid looks to be over zealous military wannabe law officers getting their kicks by taking down some peasant citizens knowing they will never have to answer for their actions. With the fact that nothing was found during the search I hope their hides are nailed to the wall for harming the infant.

If they went to the wrong house or it turns out there was never any drug dealing going on then the blame is all on the cops. Otherwise people have to take responsibility for their actions and inaction.

Already been pointed out that the family was processing of moving. But a HUGE part of the responsibility of the investigating officers is to insure to the greatest extent possible that they can effect an entry without causing collateral damage. This family was in the house for MONTHS - not DAYS. Toys were evidently visible in the yard - a clear indicator of the possible presence of children. You cannot tell me that, in that time period, police did not have ample time to establish the presence of others residing in the house and to determine if the dealer even still lived at that address. By their own admission, the dealer they were after was a small time narc. There was nothing to justify handling this as if they were taking down the cartel leader himself.

As far as I am concerned, the grand jury said it best when they acknowledged that this was sloppy police work and carried out against all accepted best practices. How they could go from that statement to reach a conclusion that the police are guilty of nothing and absolve the county of any responsibility to pay for the damage they caused to a baby absolutely blows my mind.

And frankly, the fact that YOU can find a way to condone it doesn't say much about your mindset, either.

 

[gunnerbob]

I doubt it will end until someone is held criminally responsible and I fear that will never happen. I can't say that there should never be any reason for no knock raids but they are far to common. It is clearly safer to arrest someone by surprise in public. This is what usually happens when they are dealing a dangerous criminal because it is safer for all involved. It seems that when they are not dealing with a dangerous criminal they feel it is safe to conduct a no-knock raid and that is ridiculous. It is simply smarter to only serve a warrant at a residence if you can knock on the door and serve the warrant. If that can't be done serve them by surprise in public.

It seems as though you're trying to reach a rational conclusion, you're agreeing with the practice being grossly misused. I'll give you that credit, you're almost there. :biggrin:

 

[BC1]

So you think we the police department should call ahead of time to schedule and appointment with the suspect after they have obtained a warrant. Then follow that up with a reminder letter sent by certified mail. Drive by their house the day before with a giant neon sign telling them they will be served a warrant tomorrow at 2:30pm. Show up about 2:00 give them a hand job and then finally at about 2:40 make their entrance fashionably late and hope to find whatever it is they are searching for.

No, that's how Obama handles foreign military action. Tells them everything in advance.
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That PD didn't do it's homework. You don't violate the rights of a toddler. You must know how many people are in the house and, based on the time of day where those persons might be. If it's 5:00 Am and there's kids in the home you don't lob grenades. In fact when there's kids in the home you simply don't kick-in the door. You find another way to get your perp. Seems this tactic was once used by the Pinkerton Detective Agency on the home of Jesse and Frank James. Their mother lost her arm and their youngest brother was killed. Frank and Jesse weren't even there. The incident put the Pinkerton Agency in a very cowardly light.
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You conduct surveillance and practice due diligence. You learn the schedule and comings and goings of everyone in the home. You don't break down the door and endanger others. You accost the perp on his way to get coffee and the paper.

 

[Paul_of_TX]

You guys act as if the people who are not LEO are always honest in their account of the story. Yes, I am well aware that after this incident the family said they were just about to leave but we have no idea if that is true. How many times have we heard the stories about what a good upstanding citizen someone was just to find out the person was a complete low life thug. In reality the family could have had no intention of packing up and leaving anytime soon. They could have viewed the drug dealer as a "good kid" and thought this place where he was dealing meth was an excellent place for them to stay. There was nothing found during the raid but why was the family about to leave? I think it says a lot that the family says they were leaving soon. Why leave your relatives house if there is nothing bad going on? We have no idea what was really going in and I find it difficult to believe the police or the family.

The thing is, I feel like I'm the only one here saying that both the police and the family need to be held responsible for their actions. Everyone else is saying how the police messed up but the family did no wrong by keeping their baby at a house where some thug was selling meth. The facts I have seen are pretty bare in this case so it is difficult to really go either way. No doubt the police went way overboard with their tactics and they should be held responsible. I take the safety and well being of my family very seriously and if we are staying somewhere and someone is selling drugs we are not staying another night. I will take my family somewhere else. I can't control other peoples bad decision and actions so the best I can do is to be vigilant and think of my families safety above all else. This is a website for people who carry firearms; all of us should be strong supporters of personal responsibility. You don't stop at a gas station after dark in a bad part of town. You don't walk in a clueless manner to an ATM withdraw a large amount of money and flash it on the way back to your car. You think about scenarios and look for exit routes. Conflict resolution is your primary weapon not your firearm; but it should be accessible should you need it. Then why in the world would if be okay to stay one more night at a house where some guy was selling meth?

 

[BC1]

Everyone else is saying how the police messed up but the family did no wrong by keeping their baby at a house where some thug was selling meth.

Yes, the family did wrong. Still no excuse for LE to act like Barney Fife. They took Barney's bullets away for a reason. These cops get the dumbass award. And then there's still the rights of the baby. He's a U.S. citizen entitled to all the same rights as you and I. He has the right to live, to be heard, to be protected. His rights were violated by a government supported paramilitary organization headed by Barney Fife. No different than the cop in MO who was caught on video and later fired for telling protester to move or he'll kill them. Some of these guys are 100% unfit to wear a badge. Who the hell do these thugs think they are? They need to do their homework. You don't endanger the children in the home. You observe the perp closely and catch him getting his morning coffee... away from the home. No flash grenade necessary.