Firearm confiscation during a State of Emergency

[NotTwoShure]

What happened to this forum of pro gun good guys/gals wanting to chat about the things we care about? School yard pranks and bathroom humor is just too much at my age. This has gotten just like the C.B. radio of the late 1970's.

 

[BluesStringer]

Are we supposed to be impressed by your childish pictures?

I guess no more-so than your brainless, meaningless one-liners. The difference between me posting "childish" pictures and you posting one-liners though, is that my "childish" pictures are the very rare exception to the rule, while you post only brainless, meaningless one-liners so far as I have seen.

Didn't you ask me (by posting a childish picture) if you needed to explain why a previous post was "BS?" And didn't I ask you to go ahead and explain away? Didn't I even say I'd been waiting for something from you of any significant substance?

Still waiting....

 

[BC1]

Not having a gun registration.

The first step in gun confiscation is to make a list of who has guns. Gun registration does exactly that.

NC does not have gun registration, but one county did until it was overturned by the state legislature last year. Now due to public pressure and pressure from Grass Roots NC, Durham county says that the gun registration data prior to last year has been destroyed.

At least at the local level, NC law also prohibits restriction on lawfully owned firearm and ammo during a SOE, though it can restrict the sale of guns, ammo, alcohol and even gasoline. 166A-19.31

Mileage may vary in your state.

Would anyone believe the NSA doesn't have a list of every BATFE 4473 applicant? I certainly don't believe that background check records aren't held. Besides, I'm not sure what guns they're talking about. I don't have them anymore. Good luck with confiscation. A record number of people have lost their firearms.

 

[XD40scinNC]

Would anyone believe the NSA doesn't have a list of every BATFE 4473 applicant? I certainly don't believe that background check records aren't held. Besides, I'm not sure what guns they're talking about. I don't have them anymore. Good luck with confiscation. A record number of people have lost their firearms.

Yes, because I have talked to the owner of my favorite LGS, who explained how they file them, and how long they must retain them, and that the ATF has the right to come and inspect them, but at least in his store they have not collected any data from the. They have spot checked them to verify all fields required are completed, but most of they have never been seen by the ATF, except as a folder full of paper.

Can't speak for background checks at the time of purchase because it works a little different in NC. We either get a PPP (Pistol Purchase Permit) from the sheriff, good for one handgun, or multiple long guns, and you can get multiple PPP's from one application. Or we simply show our CHP, a.k.a. the gold card for handgun or long gun purchases. Basically no NICS checks are run at the time of purchase, thus no information about what, when, where any purchases are made. The seller merely files the paper 4473 in their back room, in case the ATF want a look see, or does one of their audits.

And a 100% legal sale between individuals, no 4473 is generated. At least that's how it works in NC. My last such purchase, the seller doing exactly what he should, I showed him my CHP, we both filled out a bill of sale, which I kept, and handed him the cash. The only government documents involved where the Federal Reserve Notes I paid him with.

Pretty sure that our government does not yet have the ability to read a bunch of papers stored in a fireproof filing cabinet in the back room of a gun store.

 

[BC1]

Yes, because I have talked to the owner of my favorite LGS, who explained how they file them, and how long they must retain them, and that the ATF has the right to come and inspect them, but at least in his store they have not collected any data from the. They have spot checked them to verify all fields required are completed, but most of they have never been seen by the ATF, except as a folder full of paper.

Can't speak for background checks at the time of purchase because it works a little different in NC. We either get a PPP (Pistol Purchase Permit) from the sheriff, good for one handgun, or multiple long guns, and you can get multiple PPP's from one application. Or we simply show our CHP, a.k.a. the gold card for handgun or long gun purchases. Basically no NICS checks are run at the time of purchase, thus no information about what, when, where any purchases are made. The seller merely files the paper 4473 in their back room, in case the ATF want a look see, or does one of their audits.

And a 100% legal sale between individuals, no 4473 is generated. At least that's how it works in NC. My last such purchase, the seller doing exactly what he should, I showed him my CHP, we both filled out a bill of sale, which I kept, and handed him the cash. The only government documents involved where the Federal Reserve Notes I paid him with.

Pretty sure that our government does not yet have the ability to read a bunch of papers stored in a fireproof filing cabinet in the back room of a gun store.

Don't be so sure. Have you seen the new NSA data center? This facility is being built to spy on you and I. The NSA is the domestic version of the CIA. And as part of the justice department they are shoulder to shoulder with the FBI. When that store sends-in the 4473 someone on the other end runs a quick check. That involves a computer. It's extremely easy for the justice department software to make an entry in a file routed to the NSA data center containing your name and address. Edward Snowden had it right. Trust me... they know. They're downright evil.

 

[XD40scinNC]

Don't be so sure. Have you seen the new NSA data center? This facility is being built to spy on you and I. The NSA is the domestic version of the CIA. And as part of the justice department they are shoulder to shoulder with the FBI. When that store sends-in the 4473 someone on the other end runs a quick check. That involves a computer. It's extremely easy for the justice department software to make an entry in a file routed to the NSA data center containing your name and address. Edward Snowden had it right. Trust me... they know. They're downright evil.

First off your LGS does NOT "send in" the 4473, they file them. They are NOT submitted to the government, thought the government does have the right to come and inspect them, and probably collect information from them.

I don't know if you have a local, locally owned LGS, you have a good rapport with, but if you do you should talk to them. The 4473's are a PIA for them, and they have to scrutinize them very carefully when the purchaser fills them out to make sure they are complete and accurate. A single check box can be a big problem for them "if" during an audit an agent spots it.

That data center is to capture this conversation, every phone call, text message, email that you and I send, and probably our online and CC/Debit card purchases. I bought a rifle at Wal-Mart and complete an electronic 4473 which they printed out, but I fully suspect that government has that one. The rest I have completed by hand are very likely totally unseen filed in a cabinet in the back of the LGS.

Now, would they love to have the technology to capture the data off of very paper 4473 stored in the back of every LGS across the country, absolutely they would, but the technology isn't there.

You posted a picture of their center, you are definitely on their possible terrorist list, but I also suspect you already know that, as after all you connect to this terrorist related, I mean gun/self-defense related forum daily, plus several words and acronyms in your post. I'll just bold some of the words that probably was caught in their filters.

Nor does anyone have even a clue about guns I have purchased with cash from individuals, all purchased 100% legally under my states laws. Or my grandpa's pistol I also have. My grandson now 11 loves to shoot that pistol (Colt Pre-woodsman) that was made 81 years before he was born.

 

[BC1]

First off your LGS does NOT "send in" the 4473, they file them. They are NOT submitted to the government, thought the government does have the right to come and inspect them, and probably collect information from them.

I don't know if you have a local, locally owned LGS, you have a good rapport with, but if you do you should talk to them. The 4473's are a PIA for them, and they have to scrutinize them very carefully when the purchaser fills them out to make sure they are complete and accurate. A single check box can be a big problem for them "if" during an audit an agent spots it.

That data center is to capture this conversation, every phone call, text message, email that you and I send, and probably our online and CC/Debit card purchases. I bought a rifle at Wal-Mart and complete an electronic 4473 which they printed out, but I fully suspect that government has that one. The rest I have completed by hand are very likely totally unseen filed in a cabinet in the back of the LGS.

Now, would they love to have the technology to capture the data off of very paper 4473 stored in the back of every LGS across the country, absolutely they would, but the technology isn't there.

You posted a picture of their center, you are definitely on their possible terrorist list, but I also suspect you already know that, as after all you connect to this terrorist related, I mean gun/self-defense related forum daily, plus several words and acronyms in your post. I'll just bold some of the words that probably was caught in their filters.

Nor does anyone have even a clue about guns I have purchased with cash from individuals, all purchased 100% legally under my states laws. Or my grandpa's pistol I also have. My grandson now 11 loves to shoot that pistol (Colt Pre-woodsman) that was made 81 years before he was born.

One thing the anti-gun community doesn't seem to grasp is that there are millions of guns handed down throughout family generations. Their cries for confiscation are ignorant. And of course all those guns held by very bad people aren't getting confiscated either. It seems that whenever the liberal-left has an idea they should do the complete opposite. Regarding that 4473? They have it. Bet on it. Whether the store faxed or called-in the data there's a decision made on the other end. That person does a lookup and the computer check can flag a name and address as a gun buyer and route a transaction to the NSA. They don't have the old ones but they're getting all the new ones. They may also obtain listings of everyone has been issued a CCW in every state. So a little at a time they'll build a national database. They're very good at this. Their IT people are among the best in the world.
.
I also figure the list of people the NSA thinks to be questionable is larger than the list of who they label to be safe. I often wonder if any of these people go home, look at their kids and realize that as a government employee they're the one's harming future generations of Americans. I started my career with the government in 1979 as an IT security specialist. What the NSA collects was called meta-data. Well that's BS. Meta-data is merely descriptive... it doesn't indicate who talked to whom. They're collecting real data.

 

[RJT CCW]

Nor does anyone have even a clue about guns I have purchased with cash from individuals, all purchased 100% legally under my states laws. Or my grandpa's pistol I also have. My grandson now 11 loves to shoot that pistol (Colt Pre-woodsman) that was made 81 years before he was born.

But then you out yourself on an internet forum. :lol:

 

[RJT CCW]

One thing the anti-gun community doesn't seem to grasp is that there are millions of guns handed down throughout family generations. Their cries for confiscation are ignorant. And of course all those guns held by very bad people aren't getting confiscated either. It seems that whenever the liberal-left has an idea they should do the complete opposite. Regarding that 4473? They have it. Bet on it. Whether the store faxed or called-in the data there's a decision made on the other end. That person does a lookup and the computer check can flag a name and address as a gun buyer and route a transaction to the NSA. They don't have the old ones but they're getting all the new ones. They may also obtain listings of everyone has been issued a CCW in every state. So a little at a time they'll build a national database. They're very good at this. Their IT people are among the best in the world.
.
I also figure the list of people the NSA thinks to be questionable is larger than the list of who they label to be safe. I often wonder if any of these people go home, look at their kids and realize that as a government employee they're the one's harming future generations of Americans. I started my career with the government in 1979 as an IT security specialist. What the NSA collects was called meta-data. Well that's BS. Meta-data is merely descriptive... it doesn't indicate who talked to whom. They're collecting real data.

The 4473 is not faxed in and when the dealer calls in the background check the only information given about the gun is whether it is a handgun or long-gun. No make, model, s/n information is transferred. So, unless the operator is typing all the info into the system or the call is recorded and then entered into a data-base that is not legal the NICS will know you purchased a gun but not what gun was purchased.

 

[gunnerbob]

When your LGS employee makes the call to have you run in NICS, there is somebody on the other end who is typing your information into a computer to search for your data, whatever that may be. There are basic questions asked and answered, just listen to what's said the next time you purchase a firearm. While the data given may not be specific to the weapon you bought (i.e. model, serial #, etc.), the FBI now has record of you purchasing a firearm. I'm not so sure that when your information is entered into the NICS database, that the audit trail of you isn't stored electronically.

Is there anybody here that knows exactly what happens on the other end of the line during a background check? Further, would such a person on the other end even know conclusively that when they do enter your information into the inquiry function it isn't stored without that individual selecting to do so? Such storage systems/programs exist of course, I used them near daily for asset allocation and movement research while on AD. I could find out who, to the name, number and office of origination, requisitioned assets and even what search functions they utilized in the process. I could track the who, what, when, where and even why of asset requisition at every corner of the globe, from one little computer at my desk. Don't ever underestimate the computing capabilities of the government, the tools at their disposal are spectacularly frightening.

Maybe we should just ask the NSA employees intercepting our communications what they do. Well, NSA, what are you up to behind your computer screens?

 

[Axeanda45]

Is there anybody here that knows exactly what happens on the other end of the line during a background check?

By law, they are NOT to keep ANY of the info, any record of it once you pass the background check they are supposed to destroy/delete the info. However, since when has the Gov't followed any of the laws that bind it?

 

[gunnerbob]

By law, they are NOT to keep ANY of the info, any record of it once you pass the background check they are supposed to destroy/delete the info. However, since when has the Gov't followed any of the laws that bind it?

There's my point, with a simple yet hidden-to-the-user data collection program, anything could be stored instantly. We can't pretend to be so naive and think there couldn't be such hidden programs that violate the written law. Like you said, there are as many instances of the government, or specific government agencies violating the laws that govern them.

 

[XD40scinNC]

The 4473 is not faxed in and when the dealer calls in the background check the only information given about the gun is whether it is a handgun or long-gun. No make, model, s/n information is transferred. So, unless the operator is typing all the info into the system or the call is recorded and then entered into a data-base that is not legal the NICS will know you purchased a gun but not what gun was purchased.

Even that doesn't happen in NC. To buy a handgun you apply to the sheriff for a purchase permit. You can get multiples with one application. I assume the sheriff basically runs a NICS check, but don't know for sure.

Or with a NC CHP, you merely show your CHP to make the purchase hand guns or long guns, kinda like the gold card, nor does it create any way to track how many guns you buy. With either method a NICS check is NOT run at the time of purchase.

 

[S&W645]

There's my point, with a simple yet hidden-to-the-user data collection program, anything could be stored instantly. We can't pretend to be so naive and think there couldn't be such hidden programs that violate the written law. Like you said, there are as many instances of the government, or specific government agencies violating the laws that govern them.

If a gunshop goes out of business or changes hands, the old bound books and the 4473s go to BATFE. So by default, they have records. The NICS check info generates an approval number. That approval number is kept on file. They can then tie approval numbers to bound book data once a year if they want.

 

[S&W645]

Even that doesn't happen in NC. To buy a handgun you apply to the sheriff for a purchase permit. You can get multiples with one application. I assume the sheriff basically runs a NICS check, but don't know for sure.

Or with a NC CHP, you merely show your CHP to make the purchase hand guns or long guns, kinda like the gold card, nor does it create any way to track how many guns you buy. With either method a NICS check is NOT run at the time of purchase.

There is a way that a NICS check is done even with your CHP. It just is run thru your state and they are required to keep it up to date. At the minimum they would have to run your permit number thru the system or else your state/gun store would be in violation of the law. And if you bought two handguns at the same time/within 7 days at the same shop, they must send in the multiple purchase form to BATFE and your local CLEO by Federal Law.https://www.atf.gov/files/forms/download/atf-f-3310-4.pdf The guns cannot leave the store legally without having a check done.

 

[BC1]

When your LGS employee makes the call to have you run in NICS, there is somebody on the other end who is typing your information into a computer to search for your data, whatever that may be. There are basic questions asked and answered, just listen to what's said the next time you purchase a firearm. While the data given may not be specific to the weapon you bought (i.e. model, serial #, etc.), the FBI now has record of you purchasing a firearm. I'm not so sure that when your information is entered into the NICS database, that the audit trail of you isn't stored electronically.

Stated perfectly. As a former IT professional I'll tell you how easy it is. When the FBI types a name, address and SS number (if provided) They run a check on a computer against a national database. They notify the store whether or not to approve the purchase. Putting all-that aside.. because that part actually doesn't matter. When the program performing the search executes at the server-end, that program can trigger a simple EDI transaction (electronic data interchange) to send the name and address to the NSA. It's not a big deal. It's ONE line of program code and takes about 5 minutes to change any program to pass the data. Since both are under the purvey of the justice department there is no special permission needed to store that transaction. If the feds contracted me to do it I could do the entire thing in a single day. SO the NSA builds this massive data center and then people argue that they can't get data on who bought a gun. Can anyone say naïve? Gullible? Be vey concerned. They know.

 

[Axeanda45]

I WANT the Govt to KNOW I have firearms.... LOTS OF THEM.....

 

[CharlesMorrison]

I WANT the Govt to KNOW I have firearms.... LOTS OF THEM.....

Link Removed

 

[Oldgrunt]

Is there any doubt that members on here are on watchlists? Doesn't matter if you are a veteran, gun enthusiast, fisherman or bird watcher, there is a list for everyone. NO ONE goes without Big Brother's eyes on us. Orwellian society at it's finest.

 

[S&W645]

Is there any doubt that members on here are on watchlists? Doesn't matter if you are a veteran, gun enthusiast, fisherman or bird watcher, there is a list for everyone. NO ONE goes without Big Brother's eyes on us. Orwellian society at it's finest.

Some of us have been on the lists since the day we were born. Some of us on more than one.