FBI uses Chainsaw in Raid on Wrong Apartment - WHAT IF?

[CathyInBlue]

As noted, I have a pretty elaborate alarm system and dogs, one thing it does not do is turn on internal lights giving the outside folks my position, nor will it ever do so, outside lights light the BG up for easy targets.

If all of the lights in the entire house, including upstairs lights and lights in rooms that are not even occupied light up, how would that give away your position?

On another issue, if you know the door is solid wood, even hard wood, then I can see some bright bulb getting the idea of using a gas chain saw as a breaching tool. My front door is solid core, but its skin is steel. Also, I have half of all of the screws, door side and jamb side, replaced with 5" long screws, so traditional shotgun breaching wouldn't work as well, also dead bolt is 1.5-2' higher than door knob.

I want to try my hand at building my own exterior doors to achieve a 2" thickness. In lieu of a core of 3/4" plywood, I could do 3/8" plywood sandwiching a 1/8" sheet of steel. That's pretty well guaranteed to screw up a chainsaw.

 

[rev. dave]

It may be instructive to remember the '70's with the 'No Knock' laws. Then too there were lots of 'wrong address' invasions by feds and locals. Once they started meeting buckshot and slugs flying out of the hallways, the 'No Knock' procedure was dropped pretty quickly.

These days any punk-ass gang can buy black SWAT uniforms and insignia online, as well as body armor. And any damned fool can pound your door and shout "POLICE". A citizen can't risk waiting to find out if it's bad guys in black BDUs or or just bad feds. A shot 5.5 feet off the ground while the saw is still cutting the door will pretty surely take care of the chainsaw guy - he's directly behind the saw and blade. And if they don't 'knock and announce' you're entitled to shoot first.

 

[Hamilton Felix]

Sorry but this is ILLOGICAL, wrong, and irresponsible. Grabbing your rifle and shooting through your door before you can even see who you are killing is plain stupid! For all you know, you could be committing murder on the fire department who is breaking in everyone's door in the burning apartment complex because they are trying to clear the building and they know everyone is asleep.

Whoa, Cowboy! I'm trying to give a scenario where it's loud, you're in immediate danger, and the attackers are unidentified. Maybe this chainsaw attack wasn't the very best example of that - However: I own 5 chainsaws, I live in Logger country, and I know saws. If my Husqvarna 385XP is running flat out, indoors, there is NO possibility of verbal communication. And I don't care if it has the 28 or the 32 inch bar on it, you can cut through something like a residential door faster than you can move the saw.

BUT - I know saws and if I can see the bar of the saw, I know where the operator is standing. I know he'll be inside in seconds, and I already know what's beyond my door (ie: the backstop area for rounds that miss). If I open up with my little AR or my M1A, a good percentage of those rounds WILL hit the saw operator. Assuming this is a Texas Chainsaw Massacre copycat, we're all dead if I do not open fire immediately.

The question is: You are attacked with extreme noise and violence by unknown assailants. You beat the odds and survive. It turns out they were Law Enforcement. What happens in court afterward?

BTW, in my not-so-humble opinion, masked, heavily armed attackers in black armor are Terrorists and should be met with the maximum available firepower. Peace Officers, on the other hand, do not wear masks, do have name tags and badges, do wear uniforms, and identify themselves when they knock on your door.

 

[Nightmare45]

If all of the lights in the entire house, including upstairs lights and lights in rooms that are not even occupied light up, how would that give away your position?

On another issue, if you know the door is solid wood, even hard wood, then I can see some bright bulb getting the idea of using a gas chain saw as a breaching tool. My front door is solid core, but its skin is steel. Also, I have half of all of the screws, door side and jamb side, replaced with 5" long screws, so traditional shotgun breaching wouldn't work as well, also dead bolt is 1.5-2' higher than door knob.

I want to try my hand at building my own exterior doors to achieve a 2" thickness. In lieu of a core of 3/4" plywood, I could do 3/8" plywood sandwiching a 1/8" sheet of steel. That's pretty well guaranteed to screw up a chainsaw.

While not going into my total protection of home, I can tell you breeching my door will get you "KILLED" None of my internal lights come on I know my home they don't. If you call I will show up with my attorney.

 

[Hamilton Felix]

I'm with you in spirit, my friend.

BTW, the carbide tooth saws used by fire departments (I tried to get some when I was running our small VFD, but when a chain costs more than a small saw, they balk) are designed to handle composition roofing, nails, etc. They'd have no problem with the super thin sheetmetal in a lot of residential entry doors.

I'd like to have entry doors with real steel in them. If you're experimenting, don't forget your arithmetic. Alloys vary, but use 0.283 lbs. per cubic inch and you won't be too far off. So a 1/8" plate inside a 36 x 82 inch entry door will add 104.4 lbs. A 1/4" sheet adds almost 209 lbs. But if it was something like T-1 steel, it might be worth the extra framing, hinges and effort.

Just remember, while you're busy designing the super door with metal armor, locking lugs all around like a safe door, etc., that it's a felony to harden your home so the cops have trouble breaking in. In most states, it has to be a drug raid and they actually have to find something (oops! a joint fell out of that last cop's pocket). In a few states, it only has to be a "drug raid," even if they hit the wrong address, find nothing, etc. I have a friend here in WA state who was in prison with a guy doing more time for hardening his home than for the drugs.

Frankly, I believe a GOOD lawyer could make a pretty good case for the defender in a situation where there was clearly no identification of the attackers before they hit the place. But a lot of lawyers can be scared off by cops and government agencies. I've seen it happen. Unless you're worth at least ten million, I think if you defend yourself effectively against cops you're screwed.

 

[rev. dave]

So, it's a felony to protect yourself by strengthening your home against intruders? Or a felony to harden it against police / fed invasion specifically? This law would basically make it a felony to have a 'safe-room' too, as it would also stop police from getting to you.

It would seem the burden of proof is on the state - proving you built up your doors and such to keep out law enforcement and not for simple protection from crime. Since their response time to a home invasion is probably on the order of 20-30 minutes - assuming you have an alarm system that notifies them immediately - and they aren't coming in to save you anyway when they do get there, I would think it would be difficult for any prosecutor to say your home was fortified against police unless there was criminal activity at the location - and if they're busting into the wrong house, even shooting at them isn't criminal - you will likely be killed for it, but it's not a criminal act. Self-defense is never criminal.

And checkout jury rights too in case you're ever called. You have NO obligation to convict anyone regardless of 'proof' or 'evidence'. Fully Informed Jury Association This kind of law, as well as those that make resisting a cop on duty not matter what he does to you, is purely 'police state' in nature. Refuse to convict anyone for hardening their home or property. Just say NO. Judges will often instruct juries that they have an obligation to convict if the case is proven - but that is a lie. They do NOT want us to know that we have the right to refuse to convict a person if we feel the law they're charged with breaking isn't just or fair or is just plain stupid.

 

[billwot]

I'm with you in spirit, my friend.

Just remember, while you're busy designing the super door with metal armor, locking lugs all around like a safe door, etc., that it's a felony to harden your home so the cops have trouble breaking in. .

Could you supply some references/documentation to support that statement?

 

[Hamilton Felix]

Could you supply some references/documentation to support that statement?


Billwot, I did it a while back, and I didn't save or bookmark the web pages. Anyone with a little imagination on how to frame search requests, and some time with Google can do it. You'll find plenty to get the idea, without having to use Lexlaw or Westlaw or any of the subscription services.

When I started looking and started getting hits in enough states to get the general idea, I found that in MOST states, it not only has to be a "drug raid," but they have to find some contraband. A few states did a worse job of writing the law, so it only has to be a "drug raid," however misguided.

My friend did prison time in the 1990's and he was in with a guy doing more time for hardening his house than for the drugs they found.

This crap came in with the "War on Drugs," same as all those outrageous forfeiture laws. So the bottom line is, try not to get raided (yeah, I know). And definitely do not have anything illegal on your property. One wishes for a secret underground escape passage or something, like in the movies, because when your government comes for you, you're usually dead.

Don't let it discourage you from making your house hard to break into. Just make SURE there's nothing even remotely illegal (visiting relative's forgotten leftover prescription in the guest bedroom, some 222's from Canada, etc.) in your home. And do check the specific law in your state.

And, though I never really got an answer to the original question, I think if you resist even the most insanely misguided and improperly executed raid, you will most likey be charged for any of the attacking idiots you shot.

 

[maybejim]

"And, though I never really got an answer to the original question, I think if you resist even the most insanely misguided and improperly executed raid, you will most likey be charged for any of the attacking idiots you shot."

I rather doubt that and I strongly doubt that you would ever be convicted.

 

[festus]

A gentleman in Mississippi was convicted of killing a police officer in the performance of his duties when the officers performed a no knock raid at the wrong apartment and he just so happened to shoot the first intruder to cross the thresh hold.

He was holding his child at the time and was terrified because he had been broken into previously...
The State of Mississippi apparently did not see it that way....

 

[rev. dave]

In many states, mine included, it is a felony to "interfere" with a LEO acting in the course of duty, regardless of WHAT he might be doing. So basically, if you ask why he broke into your home, you're a felon. If you fire upon him, you're a felon. If he rapes your daughter while in uniform and you yell at him, you're a felon. That is how the law is written - they may violate your civil, Constitutional, and basic human rights with impunity and if you so much as protest you're going to jail.

So, the only way I can see to stop illegal and over-the-top behavior by cops is to shoot, shoot first, shoot straight and shoot as many as you can get when anybody busts in your door without knocking. Keep a gun loaded and handy. When your door suddenly flies open, you should assume it's criminals even if they do shout "POLICE". Hell, any damned fool can shout. Ask for ID and you might all end up dead because it's NOT cops - and bad guys won't let you call the cops at that point either.

You're going to jail anyway if its cops and you do ANYTHING, and may be killed anyway if it isn't, so you might as well defend your family. At least you'll still get a jury trial first - assuming the cops don't kill you for their mistake. If LEOs know they will likely be shot at, they might at least try to make sure they're at the correct address first.

 

[johnmed3]

I would call 1911, and then 911.

 

[CathyInBlue]

@rev. dave:
What state would be the one you are in?

Link Removed
Keyword Search: barricade
IC 9-21-6: Referring to blocking off streets for illegal street races.

Keyword Search: harden
<none>

Keyword Search: reinforce
IC 14-22-31.5: Referring to buildings housing shooting ranges prior to July, 1996.
IC 10-18-1: Referring to antique battle flags being restored.

I appear to be clean for building 2" thick solid wood doors with 1/4" thick steel plate in the middle.

Can anyone think of other keywords to search for in the Indiana Code, or other state bodies of law, that might bring up something?

And I think it might have been mentioned, but I want to amplify it. There's no point in having an entry door that can reject a bazooka blast, if the hinges, door frame, and/or surrounding exterior walls can't. Take a hint from armoured car builders and make the envelope of protection as seamless as possible, at least within several feet of an entry door. Stupidest security mistake I ever saw was a deadbolt on a door with a side light on the latch side. (Second stupidest was a deadbolt within 2' of the main latch.)

And for those of you not privy to goings on in the Indiana Supreme Court, the case of Barnes v State of Indiana http://www.in.gov/judiciary/opinions/new/barnes.pdf confirmed that the 4th Amendment has no weight when police are forcing their way into your home, even and especially when doing so illegally. Indiana Senate is working on new Castle Doctrine law Link Removed this very session to overturn Barnes.

I have no idea how the SCOIN can claim their Barnes decision can stand in the face of IC 35-41-3-2, as it stands now, but then, that's why the General Assembly is gonna hack out a stronger Castle Doctrine to make it clear how they erred.

 

[-06]

No knocks got several killed at Waco. Evidently they have not learned. Everyone is not a passive homeowner sitting around in their pajamas sipping coffee. Come to my door like a gentleman and be treated like one. Crash through it an we both die.

 

[rev. dave]

CathyInBlue, I'm in CT. But that 'no resistance to cops' law exists in at least several states, maybe 'many'. I suppose it's to protect them from bad guys claiming their rights were being violated - which they do in court anyway. But as written, it's a mandate for rogue cops to roll right over civilians and jail us if we resist - or shoot us as we're immediately 'felons' when we resist.

As for protecting your home, I think code is administrated by local guys (it is here, and in VA where I used to live), under national building standards. It might be different in Indiana, but in general I don't think the states have squat to do with administering code. They just have laws saying you can't do things to keep cops out. But in general you'll be working with your town's building inspectors, and they can give you a copy of what is and isn't code.

You'll probably find that overbuilding is seldom a problem - e.g. if you were building new you would likely be permitted to do a foundation 2 ft thick - so upgrading your door isn't likely a problem. But they do have limitations based on fire safety too - some ways of locking a door could prove fatal in a house fire if it took too long to open it from the inside. For fire reasons too, I doubt you'd be permitted to put half inch boiler plate under your siding - not that you suggested that but only as an example.

So If you present yourself as a citizen who is concerned about criminal home invasions, and who feels a need to harden the home against criminals in order to give you time 'to call the cops' and for them to arrive, you may even get advice from your local building inspector. Do be aware however, that many things will require filing plans with the town, so there will be blueprints available to them if demanded by federales. At the same time, unless you're in a city, the local LEOs probably are NOT your problem and may be on your side. The guys you really want to keep out are criminals and raving federales 'on a mission'.

If its possible, build yourself a 'safe room' - but with a hidden tunnel to an alternate location - maybe an exit point on the far end of the property disguised as a rotting shed or outhouse so that you can escape criminal invaders. If you can only do one of those - go for the tunnel with a hidden entrance in the house and a hidden exit. (The movie Conspiracy Theory has a good idea for a hidden entrance.) If it's feds, and you tick them off, you're dead, so running is safer. (Think WACO, think Ruby Ridge.) They WILL kill any one of us, and you can say the same about psychopath home invader criminals. You can take some with you, or you can try to get away and fend them off legally while you're hiding - or both - but if they want you they will eventually find you. They have resources to burn, and can keep a team of guys on your tail for years just for the sake of winning - and they will.

 

[rev. dave]

-06, that was my original point. The 'no-knock' policies of the 70's were dropped because LEOs started getting killed for it - and when it's the wrong house they certainly can't prosecute any survivors for shooting at them. If a 'shoot when the door flies open' policy was endemic in US households, we'd see gentlemanly behavior from two uniforms at the door almost always. (The team could always just wait out on the street to see how things proceeded before being deployed.) But as long at the LE thinks they can play SpecOps in their paramilitary gear just because somebody has come under suspicion of a violation, and can do it with impunity, none of us are safe.

 

[ingodwetrust1975]

3. Grab my gun, retreat. Retreating from my own home is not required in my state, but that doesnt mean its not an option.

QUOTE]


Not a good idea! I'm not leaving my gun behind so when it turns out to be the FBI and I craw out the window with my gun in my hand and I cant here them shouting becuase someone is chainsawing my front door. Survey says you still get shot!!

 

[Hamilton Felix]

What it comes down to in reality, is: Cops can do anything to you. If you survive, you may get incredibly lucky and get a good jury. But if you do, they'll refile federal charges. They won't give up.

I consider the widely abused and misused "SWAT Team" to be the ultimate horror of the American Police State. Using tactics pioneered by the Gestapo over 70 years ago, they attack Americans with impunity, frequently for victimless crimes or paperwork violations. If we all recognized that we're dead with Big Brother attacks, but resolved to take a few with us, and if they lost ONE member on just about every SWAT raid, they'd soon reserve that **** for when it's truly appropriate and needed - which is rare.

“And how we burned in the camps later, thinking: What would things have been like if every Security operative, when he went out at night to make an arrest, had been uncertain whether he would return alive and had to say good-bye to his family? Or if, during periods of mass arrests, as for example in Leningrad, when they arrested a quarter of the entire city, people had not simply sat there in their lairs, paling with terror at every bang of the downstairs door and at every step on the staircase, but had understood they had nothing left to lose and had boldly set up in the downstairs hall an ambush of half a dozen people with axes, hammers, pokers, or whatever else was at hand?... The Organs would very quickly have suffered a shortage of officers and transport and, notwithstanding all of Stalin's thirst, the cursed machine would have ground to a halt! If...if...We didn't love freedom enough. And even more – we had no awareness of the real situation.... We purely and simply deserved everything that happened afterward.”
― Aleksandr I. Solzhenitsyn