FBI uses Chainsaw in Raid on Wrong Apartment - WHAT IF?

[Hamilton Felix]

FBI Uses Chainsaw In Raid On Wrong Fitchburg Apartment « CBS Boston


OK, so you wake up to a screaming chainsaw tearing through your front door. You do the logical thing to protect your family; you open fire with your battle rifle.

Now if it's the Feds, there will be lots of them and they'll probably slaughter your entire family, kittens and dogs included. But let's say you somehow survive. Maybe they back off, drag away their dead and wounded and take time to identify themselves.

What happens to you? You were in reasonable fear for the lives of your entire family. You did not wake to "knock, knock, FBI." You woke to a deafening chainsaw assault. Even if you can afford the best attorney, where do you stand?

I know the accomplice of the deceased fellow who attacked the young mother in Oklahoma is being charged with murder for that death. Does the FBI guy who screwed up the address, or the idiot to opted for the chainsaw (thus preventing any possible verbal communication) get charged for the injury or death of any invaders you shot?

My gut knows the answer, but inquiring minds want to know...

 

[yamaguy01]

I've often wondered about a similar scenario. Say you awake to your front door getting kicked-in. Any logical person would shoot, especially if it was dark and you could not recognize the uniforms. That being said, what stops a criminal from buying a uniform to look the part? I'm interested to see what gets posted in this thread.

 

[rob929]

Very interesting questions. I'll have to give it some thought. I too look forward to the continuation of this topic.

 

[nogods]

Kathryn Johnston

Kathryn Johnston (June 26, 1914 - November 21, 2006)[1] was an elderly Atlanta, Georgia woman who was shot by undercover police officers in her home on Neal Street in northwest Atlanta on November 21, 2006, where she had lived for 17 years. Three officers had entered her home in what was later described as a 'botched' drug raid.[2][3][4] Officers cut off burglar bars and broke down her door using a no-knock warrant.[5] Police said Johnston fired at them and they fired in response; she fired one shot out the door over the officers' heads and they fired 39 shots, five or six of which hit her.[3][6] None of the officers were injured by her gunfire, but Johnston was killed by the officers. Police injuries were later attributed to "friendly fire" from each others' weapons

 

[Deserteagle]

OK, so you wake up to a screaming chainsaw tearing through your front door. You do the logical thing to protect your family; you open fire with your battle rifle.

Sorry but this is ILLOGICAL, wrong, and irresponsible. Grabbing your rifle and shooting through your door before you can even see who you are killing is plain stupid! For all you know, you could be committing murder on the fire department who is breaking in everyone's door in the burning apartment complex because they are trying to clear the building and they know everyone is asleep.

 

[Nightmare45]

First my dogs would most likely respond along with alarm system, you will also be video recorded with recording being stored here and off site at two seperate locations as well as sent to my families phones. You will have to shoot the dogs to keep them off of you and any defensive traps that befalls you is your problem. My personal response is anyone kicking in my door day or night no matter what they are yelling or how they are dressed in the all out gun fight of their life. I do not fire warning shots, I may well be killed but several of them are going with me and my wife and attorney following a botched raid will do well. If I survive I will also do well. Live tape at six shows botched gov raid.

Since I am in my home where I have a right to be, the Texas Castle doctrine would also come into play.

 

[Keykutter]

I think that by firing on an FBI SWAT team, you won't need to worry about if your gonna go to jail or not.

It just won't matter.

KK

 

[kelcarry]

Sorry but this is ILLOGICAL, wrong, and irresponsible. Grabbing your rifle and shooting through your door before you can even see who you are killing is plain stupid! For all you know, you could be committing murder on the fire department who is breaking in everyone's door in the burning apartment complex because they are trying to clear the building and they know everyone is asleep.

OK, I buy your reply. Suppose I am a BG--I now have a great idea--As I breakdown the door with an axe, I will yell out "FIRE DEPARTMENT" and I will yell out "YOU MUST GET OUT NOW---LARGE FIRE AND CHANCE OF EXPLOSION". Now what does the resident do? He welcomes the BG into his house. Obviously it is too easy to overthink this "what if", but the basic question still remains. You watch COPS on TV and you see a swat team breaking a door down as they yell "police"--they do this almost instantaneously so that the BGs don't flush the good stuff down the toilet--still just does not seem right.

 

[nogods]

Sorry but this is ILLOGICAL, wrong, and irresponsible. Grabbing your rifle and shooting through your door before you can even see who you are killing is plain stupid!

I'm not certain I agree with you on that. First, you'd be shooting at someone holding the rest of the chain saw you can see cutting through your door. Second, at one point in that scenario would a law abiding citizen have reason to think "this could all just be an innocent mistake..."?

I think the problem is that as more and more people take responsibility for their safety inside their homes (because the police can't, at best they can investigate the murder or rape, but they can't prevent it), the police have to reconsider the use of no-knock warrants.

Most no-knock warrants are executed to prevent destruction of evidence. If an innocent homeowner has time to use a weapon then so would a criminal. so protection of the police is not a valid justification for a no-knock.

Is preservation of evidence really worth the risks involved to both innocent citizens and police? Can we reasonably expect an innocent law abiding citizen to remain calm, cool, and collected as someone cuts through their door like Jack Torrence?

And shouldn't the police expect that if they cut through the wrong home they might get shot at? Shouldn't they take the risk and responsibility of their errors?

 

[Deserteagle]

OK, I buy your reply. Suppose I am a BG--I now have a great idea--As I breakdown the door with an axe, I will yell out "FIRE DEPARTMENT" and I will yell out "YOU MUST GET OUT NOW---LARGE FIRE AND CHANCE OF EXPLOSION". Now what does the resident do? He welcomes the BG into his house. Obviously it is too easy to overthink this "what if", but the basic question still remains. You watch COPS on TV and you see a swat team breaking a door down as they yell "police"--they do this almost instantaneously so that the BGs don't flush the good stuff down the toilet--still just does not seem right.

The point I am making is to know what you target is before you pull the trigger. I would not shoot blindly at a door because their is a noise coming from the other side of it. I would arm myself, find a defensive position, and wait until I see who is coming in while calling 911.

If I saw a chainsaw cutting through my door, I would have a couple options.
1. Start shooting until the chainsaw stops. Stupid idea.
2. Grab my gun, position myself in a defensive spot, start calling 911, and wait until I can see who the intruder is.
3. Grab my gun, retreat. Retreating from my own home is not required in my state, but that doesnt mean its not an option.

"Sorry I killed the entire fire department and police force, I was just scared at the sound of whatever was outside my door and I'm just so trigger happy I cant help but shoot until the thing making noise shut up"

Also, it is my understanding that these entries are quick. Im sure that chainsaw ripped through the door in a couple seconds (they train to have it done fast). During those few seconds, it would take you a little while to realize that it is indeed your apartment door that is being cut. I would probably be frozen for a few seconds listening and trying to figure you what is going on. By the time you figure it out, I guarantee they will already be inside your apartment wearing police uniforms, yelling "police", and aiming their guns and flashlights at you.

 

[Deserteagle]

I'm not certain I agree with you on that. First, you'd be shooting at someone holding the rest of the chain saw you can see cutting through your door. Second, at one point in that scenario would a law abiding citizen have reason to think "this could all just be an innocent mistake..."?

I think the problem is that as more and more people take responsibility for their safety inside their homes (because the police can't, at best they can investigate the murder or rape, but they can't prevent it), the police have to reconsider the use of no-knock warrants.

Most no-knock warrants are executed to prevent destruction of evidence. If an innocent homeowner has time to use a weapon then so would a criminal. so protection of the police is not a valid justification for a no-knock.

Is preservation of evidence really worth the risks involved to both innocent citizens and police? Can we reasonably expect an innocent law abiding citizen to remain calm, cool, and collected as someone cuts through their door like Jack Torrence?

And shouldn't the police expect that if they cut through the wrong home they might get shot at? Shouldn't they take the risk and responsibility of their errors?

Im not asking you to agree with it. I'm just sharing my opinion about shooting people you cant even see!

I agree with you for the most part about no-knock warrants. I would not want to be on either side of one. I think they should arrest the people outside of the home so they minimize risk of death to all parties involved.

 

[nogods]

Im not asking you to agree with it.

I don't need your permission to agree or disagree with you....nada nada na na....

 

[CathyInBlue]

If you've got a home alarm system, wouldn't it make sense to wire it into the lighting system so that when the alarm goes off, every light in the place comes on? Would certainly obviate the question of shooting in the dark. And when the porch lights up in the middle of the night like the Las Vegas strip, whoever is out there trying to get in here will know without a doubt that they've been detected and should react appropriately.

Another nifty home automation system feature is the individual room sound system. Have the master console in the master bedroom and you could address every room of the house, including the front porch, to tell the people on the front porch that the cops are being called. If those people are BGs, that should end the episode then and there. If those people are the cops, it should at least give them pause as to whether or not they're at the right house. Why would the drug dealers they think they're busting be threatening the cops with calling the cops?

 

[walt629]

I heard about this on the radio this afternoon. Absolutely incredible! I'm not a lawyer but I think there are some grounds for a lawsuit here, I don't care if they fixed her door or not.

The addition to the scenario from my perspective would be the 911 call yelling that someone was chain-sawing their way into my home and I am preparing to defend myself against the intruders. Do you think the 911 operator could get a hold of the door breech team in time to save the gun fire?

 

[nogods]

I heard about this on the radio this afternoon. Absolutely incredible! I'm not a lawyer but I think there are some grounds for a lawsuit here, I don't care if they fixed her door or not.

The addition to the scenario from my perspective would be the 911 call yelling that someone was chain-sawing their way into my home and I am preparing to defend myself against the intruders. Do you think the 911 operator could get a hold of the door breech team in time to save the gun fire?

Yes, there probably is a section 1983 case.

I'm familiar with a similar case in New York. The feds broke into the wrong apartment and held the mother and her two children at gun point for about 10 minutes before figuring out they had the wrong apartment.

The feds fixed the door and apologized. The feds later settled for 150K plus attorney fees.

 

[The_Outlaw]

FBI Uses Chainsaw In Raid On Wrong Fitchburg Apartment « CBS Boston


OK, so you wake up to a screaming chainsaw tearing through your front door. You do the logical thing to protect your family; you open fire with your battle rifle.

Now if it's the Feds, there will be lots of them and they'll probably slaughter your entire family, kittens and dogs included. But let's say you somehow survive. Maybe they back off, drag away their dead and wounded and take time to identify themselves.

What happens to you? You were in reasonable fear for the lives of your entire family. You did not wake to "knock, knock, FBI." You woke to a deafening chainsaw assault. Even if you can afford the best attorney, where do you stand?

I know the accomplice of the deceased fellow who attacked the young mother in Oklahoma is being charged with murder for that death. Does the FBI guy who screwed up the address, or the idiot to opted for the chainsaw (thus preventing any possible verbal communication) get charged for the injury or death of any invaders you shot?

My gut knows the answer, but inquiring minds want to know...

As Treo's signature says; "Flip them the bird and die like a Viking".

 

[Nightmare45]

If you've got a home alarm system, wouldn't it make sense to wire it into the lighting system so that when the alarm goes off, every light in the place comes on? Would certainly obviate the question of shooting in the dark. And when the porch lights up in the middle of the night like the Las Vegas strip, whoever is out there trying to get in here will know without a doubt that they've been detected and should react appropriately.

Another nifty home automation system feature is the individual room sound system. Have the master console in the master bedroom and you could address every room of the house, including the front porch, to tell the people on the front porch that the cops are being called. If those people are BGs, that should end the episode then and there. If those people are the cops, it should at least give them pause as to whether or not they're at the right house. Why would the drug dealers they think they're busting be threatening the cops with calling the cops?

As noted, I have a pretty elaborate alarm system and dogs, one thing it does not do is turn on internal lights giving the outside folks my position, nor will it ever do so, outside lights light the BG up for easy targets.

 

[richardnorton]

Nope Deserteagle, de FBI wear no uniforms, did you understand that? Now they do wear blue jackets with POLICE written in BIG leters on the BACK, so I bet I wouldnever shoot one in the back. And my "apartment" sits on 250 acres and is 2400 square feet, and is located in Texas, so I NEVER have to retreat fom my home and and I never will. Sorry this turned into a shouting match, but local cops, now me well enough to call before they come to serve their "no knock" search warrant, but remember he feds and the febees,in perticular, brought us Ruby Ridge and Waco. Anyway if law enforcement is going to make mistakes they also need to take responsibilty for their actions, and a chainsaw on edoor will bring withering fire from me long before I will be awake enough to see who it is the Army just trained me that way.

 

[AWJ]

North Carolina Castle Doctrine changed recently. We were advised in our conceal carry class that the best time to get the intruder is while they are breaking your door. They are a threat at that time. A reasonable threat to your life.

Once they breach the door and enter - your shot may not be justified if they are not attacking you.

I believe the revision now states you can shoot regardless as long as they are not running away.

In NC - if my door is being broken down and I am not expecting a warrant to be served or a raid, I will empty whatever lead slinger is in my hands.

So if LEO wants in, they should clearly communicate their warrant. I will gladly open my door at that time. Any entry to anyone's home without a warrant is an assault. As long as there is not probable cause from commission of a crime prior by an occupant of property in question.

This is just one damn yankee's interpretation and may result in death. At the end of the day, it's up to you.

 

[maybejim]

Im not asking you to agree with it. I'm just sharing my opinion about shooting people you cant even see!

I agree with you for the most part about no-knock warrants. I would not want to be on either side of one. I think they should arrest the people outside of the home so they minimize risk of death to all parties involved.

I wouldn't shoot people I couldn't see. However, I would shoot the idiots coming through the door without regard to what clothes they were wearing. BG's wearing jackets that say police or sheriff on them happens several times a year around the country. I know there is no reason for police et al to be breaking into my house. So it's really incumbent on the cops to make sure they are in the right house to prevent damage to innocents on both sides.