Draw to stop a fist fight?


D

djoseph74

New member
Hi,

I'm curious about something. Today at a local secretary of state office here in Michigan, a guy started a fist fight with a couple other people. This was a guy beating a guy until the point he was about knocked out. It got me and a friend raising the question, could we draw to try and stop this fight? I've searched all over, and I can't find a good answer. Could someone help with this? Maybe even share how other states handle it if you're not from Michigan?

-Dan
 

This is a heck of an opening post, and one that has been discussed many times here.

Michigan law is very clear on this point:

MCL 780.972
780.972 Use of deadly force by individual not engaged in commission of crime; conditions.

Sec. 2.


(1) An individual who has not or is not engaged in the commission of a crime at the time he or she uses deadly force may use deadly force against another individual anywhere he or she has the legal right to be with no duty to retreat if either of the following applies:


(a) The individual honestly and reasonably believes that the use of deadly force is necessary to prevent the imminent death of or imminent great bodily harm to himself or herself or to another individual.


(b) The individual honestly and reasonably believes that the use of deadly force is necessary to prevent the imminent sexual assault of himself or herself or of another individual.


(2) An individual who has not or is not engaged in the commission of a crime at the time he or she uses force other than deadly force may use force other than deadly force against another individual anywhere he or she has the legal right to be with no duty to retreat if he or she honestly and reasonably believes that the use of that force is necessary to defend himself or herself or another individual from the imminent unlawful use of force by another individual.
Click to expand...

The problem with the scenario you present is this: unless you absolutely know without a doubt who started the fight and whether they were justified administering the beating, you are better off staying uninvolved, calling 911, and letting the police sort it out. Now, the law DOES say that you can intervene if you honestly and reasonable believe that the person administering the beating is going to cause great bodily harm or death, but again, do you also know without a shadow of a doubt that you are intervening on the right side? Yes, supposing the person administering the beating actually knocked the other guy out and continued beating him, you could probably make a case that an unconscious person is in danger of great bodily harm or death - then again, maybe he was getting what he had coming to him in a lawful application of deadly force.

That brings us to part 2 of this law: you can use less than lethal force to stop a person from using the imminent UNLAWFUL use of force. Do you KNOW that the force being used by the one administering the beating was unlawful?

Just too many unknowns here. You're probably better off being a good witness.

I am from MI, BTW. Welcome to the forum! There are a lot of knowledgeable persons here. You can learn a lot.
 
Thank you very much! I appreciate the legal clips and the point of view as well. I probably would have jumped in to break up the fight, but not sure if I would have drawn either. Glad to know the law may be on my side had I though.

Being that this has been discussed often, I wonder if this might make a good sticky in the Michigan forum.

Thanks again!

-Dan
 
Doesn't matter who is the right side. If the guy is beating on him until he is pretty much unconscious it should be over, the guy who is nearly unconscious is no longer a threat. So, to continue beating is also against the law.
 
Hmm, what were to happen if the guy beating up the other is an under cover cop? ! ? You draw your weapon and shoot him, thinking you are protecting the other "real"bad guy. Stay away from that situation.
 
Are you a LEO? If they kept fighting after you pulled it out what would you do? Shoot? Call 911 or if there were two of you perhaps pull them apart at the most.

A concealed carry license is not equal to being deputized



"It is foolish and wrong to mourn the men who died. Rather we should thank God that such men lived." -G.S. Patton
 
I also like to carry on my person, in addition to my firearm, pepper spray.

If you need to stop someone in that situation from beating the bloody pulp out of someone and in your gut you think it needs to stop, using pepper spray is a much less permanent solution to your conundrum.

Now let's say the person doing the beating is an undercover cop. You just sprayed a cop. This is a bit better than pointing your gun at him.
 
I personally do not like the term "fist fight", as it implies some sort of a fair sporting event. In a physical altercation, there is no such thing as fairness and it is not limited to using fists.

Non-lethal methods include yelling at the person that has the advantage to let it go, pushing/kicking that person away, and, my personal favorite, applying a chemical spray. The chemical spray, however, may hit the other participant and bystanders as well.

If you opt for the chemical spray, know how to use it. Know its effective range. Immediately create a distance between you and the person and area you sprayed. If the person comes at you, apply it again. If you choose to use your gun to defend yourself, pocket the can immediately so your hand is free. (Most people tend to operate the spray with their strong/shooting hand.) Yell out loud commands toward the aggressor, making him aware that you will shoot him if he attacks you. You may or may not draw your gun at that point, depending on the situation.

Remember, any defensive shooting is a life-changing event. Are you prepared for what comes after taking the shot? Breaking up a physical altercation between people that I do not know using a gunshot is not high on my list to go to jail for.
 
Happypuppy said:
Are you a LEO? If they kept fighting after you pulled it out what would you do? Shoot? Call 911 or if there were two of you perhaps pull them apart at the most.

A concealed carry license is not equal to being deputized.
Click to expand...

Immediately draw your gun and wave it around a little bit so everyone in the room knows what is about to happen, give off a couple of warning shots through the ceiling into the upper floor(s) to let everyone else in the building know, then shoot a few times at the fighting group of people and see who survives. You should also wear one of those plastic Sheriff stars out of your morning cereal box. /sarc
 
djoseph74 said:
..... I probably would have jumped in to break up the fight, but not sure if I would have drawn either. .

Thanks again!

-Dan
Click to expand...

Welcome aboard Dan.

When you decide to carry, you need to make up your mind NOT to get involved unless you absolutely must. The last thing you want go do is get involved in a physical struggle of any kind when you are carrying a loaded firearm.

Reasons-
ONE- you have automatically introduced a deadly weapon into a fight whether you draw or not.

TWO- There is a real possibility to either lose or "USE" your firearm should you find yourself overmatched.

THREE- If you find yourself having to draw and shoot someone when you could/should of stayed out of the altercation, you may find yourself in serious hot water.
​

Carrying a firearm doesn't make you an LEO. Protect yourself and your loved ones if you have to. But, do NOT get involved in a fight of any kind unless it is absolutely necessary.


-
 
djoseph74 said:
Hi,

I'm curious about something. Today at a local secretary of state office here in Michigan, a guy started a fist fight with a couple other people. This was a guy beating a guy until the point he was about knocked out. It got me and a friend raising the question, could we draw to try and stop this fight? I've searched all over, and I can't find a good answer. Could someone help with this? Maybe even share how other states handle it if you're not from Michigan?

-Dan
Click to expand...
Wait one minute. What the hell kind of question is this? What kind of person asks it? Let them beat the hell out of each other and call 911. Your job is done. You have no idea of the circumstances that started it. Maybe the guy deserves to get his head knocked-in.
 
Maybe you should have used a warning shot.
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Link Removed
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Sorry. I just couldn't resist.
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I'm not sure the 'What if he's a cop' arguments really matter. If a cop is beating an unconscious person, he's still breaking the law. The thing that always strikes me about these questions is that they're never a black and white scenario, and they can never have a black and white answer. All situations are different, and are affected by a myriad of differing circumstances and factors. For instance, I've had prior myofacial injuries that mean a beating to my face could result in grievous injury or even death, so that would make my circumstances much different than for most other people. An innocent bystander likely wouldn't know that, but it does illustrate how factors can be quite different in seemingly similar scenarios. In the scenario given here, I would lean toward trying to pull the assailant off, but realistically it's impossible to say with any degree of certainty without having been there.
 
A "fight" assumes that both parties are able to defend themselves in a reasonable fashion. In such a case its best to leave the cleanup and arrest to the police/security and stay out of it. On the other hand, if someone is beating another while they are down or unconsious, that could lead to serious injury or death. I seem to recall a case where the police slammed a suspect into a wall causing permanent neck damage, another case was the criminal attack on david sale in philadelphia where he was killed by three "unarmed" men, or the killing of a police officer in el paso by an "unarmed" person. so yes, it is possible that punches and kicks may kill, but usually not in the context of fisticuffs between two people on their feet.
 
Tough call. I like the pepperspray option. There is a reason the ref jumps in and literally throws himself between 2 fighters in a sanctioned fight. It is because once a fighter can't protect himself his life is in danger. I don't care if it is a cop or not. Beating on an unconscious person is deadly. Begin by yelling at him to stop. If you are in a group grab another guy and pull off the fighter. I don't know that I could just stand there and watch another person get beat to death. You have no idea how much damage the next blow may cause.

If yelling didn't help and no one was willing to help I recognize my limitations. I'm not physically capable of stopping a fit fighter (Oh to be young again. Then I'd probably jump in and make sure it stopped). Depending upon the nature of the fight I'd tell someone to film this then I'd tell him he was being filmed and heading to jail if he didn't stop. If that still didn't stop him I would draw and threaten him. That would be the very LAST resort.

As I said, I just couldn't watch a person get beat to death. To heck with being a good witness. If I was unarmed I would eventually jump in and dang the torpedoes. I would be REALLY pissed if no one was willing to join me in stopping the fight.

Makes me think of the case of Kitty Genovise (sp?). A girl who was beaten and raped on the doorstep of her apartment complex while dozens of folks watched out their windows - none of whom called the police. Initially the bad guy ran off when he saw folks peering out their windows but when no cops came he returned and finished the job. Slowly. Still no cops, just good freakin witnesses. I'm no deputy but that ain't happening when I am still breathing.
 
djoseph74 said:
Hi,

I'm curious about something. Today at a local secretary of state office here in Michigan, a guy started a fist fight with a couple other people. This was a guy beating a guy until the point he was about knocked out. It got me and a friend raising the question, could we draw to try and stop this fight? I've searched all over, and I can't find a good answer. Could someone help with this? Maybe even share how other states handle it if you're not from Michigan?

-Dan
Click to expand...

First you say what's bolded above.


Then you say in a later post: " I probably would have jumped in to break up the fight"


So I guess my question to you is "Did this really happen?", or is this a made-up scenario?


I can't see how someone can watch a person getting knocked almost unconscious, without intervening in some manner. Instead of helping the poor guy out, you have a discussion with your buddy about whether you can legally draw?

Boy, no offense, but I sure hope someone besides you and your buddy are around when I need help.
 
topgun47 said:
I can't see how someone can watch a person getting knocked almost unconscious, without intervening in some manner. Instead of helping the poor guy out, you have a discussion with your buddy about whether you can legally draw?

Boy, no offense, but I sure hope someone besides you and your buddy are around when I need help.
Click to expand...

Wow. Really? This happens on a daily basis. Some poor bastage gets his bell rung by some punk and other morons stand around videoing it on their cell phones to post on YT. How many times do we see a-hole cops senselessly beating some person who decides to take a stand for their rights while nimrods around them pull out their cell phones to video it? People are afraid to get involved any more for fear of lawsuits and retribution from other sources such as gangs and cops.
 
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