Draw to stop a fist fight?

[longslide10]

Hi,

I'm curious about something. Today at a local secretary of state office here in Michigan, a guy started a fist fight with a couple other people. This was a guy beating a guy until the point he was about knocked out. It got me and a friend raising the question, could we draw to try and stop this fight? I've searched all over, and I can't find a good answer. Could someone help with this? Maybe even share how other states handle it if you're not from Michigan?

-Dan

Short answer is no unless someone's life is in imminent danger of being extinguished and there is no other choice. What gets me though is you mention you are with a buddy. There is power in numbers so you 2 could have and maybe should have intervened if no weapons were present in the scuffle. Any citizen is entitled to make a citizens arrest by the way and also remember when seconds count police are just minutes away and the only reason to call 911 is to clean up the mess and take the bodies away.

 

[topgun47]

Wow. Really? This happens on a daily basis. Some poor bastage gets his bell rung by some punk and other morons stand around videoing it on their cell phones to post on YT. How many times do we see a-hole cops senselessly beating some person who decides to take a stand for their rights while nimrods around them pull out their cell phones to video it? People are afraid to get involved any more for fear of lawsuits and retribution from other sources such as gangs and cops.

Anyone that stands there and does nothing, or even does worse by video taping it, is just as despicable as the thug doing the beating. In a perfect world these people should be charged with neglect or preferably something worse.

 

[kelcarry]

Doesn't matter who is the right side. If the guy is beating on him until he is pretty much unconscious it should be over, the guy who is nearly unconscious is no longer a threat. So, to continue beating is also against the law.

Suppose, suppose, suppose. What if, what if, what if. You are drawing a conclusion that still could be wrong. You make your statement based on looking at a scene from afar when you have no idea what is going on or what went on before you ambled on the scene. Alter Ego legislation, which is what this is all about (you can act as if you are the victim) is very feel good and I understand your comments, but Murphy's Law is just waiting for you that first time you decide to "do what is right" and find out that you "did what is wrong".

 

[telpinaro]

Anyone that stands there and does nothing, or even does worse by video taping it, is just as despicable as the thug doing the beating. In a perfect world these people should be charged with neglect or preferably something worse.

I might video tape it, not for youtube (that would be disgusting) but for evidence when the cops do get there. And hopefully in order to convince the guy to stop. I'm not going to be able to get physically involved... a bit lightweight for that! :wink: Not gonna say whether I'd pull my gun or not... too many variables. It would depend on the situation. I'll leave it at I'd do what I can to save a life without endangering my own.

 

[BluesStringer]

Anyone that stands there and does nothing, or even does worse by video taping it, is just as despicable as the thug doing the beating. In a perfect world these people should be charged with neglect or preferably something worse.

So you would have a law that mandates under penalty of imprisonment that anybody who happens upon a violent confrontation between two or more people, insert themselves into the situation knowing next to nothing about what's really going on? Regardless of their own abilities, or lack thereof, to handle one or more of the actors turning on them?

I can certainly envision multiple scenarios where I would feel compelled to intervene, almost none of which would involve drawing my weapon to break up a fist fight, but if I were compelled by law to intervene in any way, I'd violate that law just on principle alone. I am a free man. No law can compel me to intervene in a fist fight between strangers to me. Why not just have a law compelling everyone to arm themselves? That would make as much sense.

Blues

 

[BC1]

Anyone that stands there and does nothing, or even does worse by video taping it, is just as despicable as the thug doing the beating. In a perfect world these people should be charged with neglect or preferably something worse.

Bizarre thinking there bud.

 

[uncle fester]

Let us not forget what country we live in. These days the good samaritan is just as llikely to get sued as the bad guy ...at least it seems that way to me.
Especially if you try to pull the bad guy off, he turns on YOU and you have to hurt him bad to get him to stop his attack. You can bet that when that video surfaces on Youtube they'll use that to show that you CHOSE to get involved and were in fact asaulting the BG.
The safest bet is to call the cops and walk away (or take your video to give the good guy a leg to stand on).

I may jump in to help ('cuz I'm stupid and a boy scout) but you need to think real carefully before YOU do it.

 

[BC1]

Let us not forget what country we live in. These days the good samaritan is just as llikely to get sued as the bad guy ...at least it seems that way to me.
Especially if you try to pull the bad guy off, he turns on YOU and you have to hurt him bad to get him to stop his attack. You can bet that when that video surfaces on Youtube they'll use that to show that you CHOSE to get involved and were in fact asaulting the BG.
The safest bet is to call the cops and walk away (or take your video to give the good guy a leg to stand on).

I may jump in to help ('cuz I'm stupid and a boy scout) but you need to think real carefully before YOU do it.

In most states including NY you may exercise force or deadly force to halt the commission of a violent crime like homicide, rape, kidnapping, sexual assault or an assault of such nature that death or significant injury would result. You don't have to watch someone get beat to death. You may act.

 

[uncle fester]

Having a defense to prosecution in criminal court won't necessarily keep you from having your pants sued off in civil court though.
I worry more about that than I do about criminal charges.
All bets are off as soon as a jury of your "peers" has to attempt to make a rational decision.

Sent from my XT1060 using USA Carry mobile app

 

[kelcarry]

Let us not forget what country we live in. These days the good samaritan is just as llikely to get sued as the bad guy ...at least it seems that way to me.
Especially if you try to pull the bad guy off, he turns on YOU and you have to hurt him bad to get him to stop his attack. You can bet that when that video surfaces on Youtube they'll use that to show that you CHOSE to get involved and were in fact asaulting the BG.
The safest bet is to call the cops and walk away (or take your video to give the good guy a leg to stand on).

I may jump in to help ('cuz I'm stupid and a boy scout) but you need to think real carefully before YOU do it.

Alter Ego is the precursor to acting on someone else's behalf as if you are the victim in imminent danger of death or great bodily injury. Immunity to any kind of legal problem goes hand in hand with the Alter Ego law, at least in SC. The real problem is when you do not fully understand the confrontation in front of you and you act incorrectly--now you are out on a big fat limb. Like I said before--this sounds good on paper and in the mind of the legislator who thinks this is a good idea (which it really is), but unless you can be 100% sure--yada, yada, yada.

 

[longslide10]

Anyone that stands there and does nothing, or even does worse by video taping it, is just as despicable as the thug doing the beating. In a perfect world these people should be charged with neglect or preferably something worse.

My thoughts exactly. Do people in this country have any stones any more? What happened to us? Oh wait....political correctness and fear.

 

[Rhino]

Bizarre thinking there bud.

I think he's just expressing frustration at the complacency with which our current society approaches so many things, a fist fight being only one example. I can understand that frustration.

 

[wolf_fire]

My thoughts exactly. Do people in this country have any stones any more? What happened to us? Oh wait....political correctness and fear.

Not to forget: a highly litigious society. The thought does cross a person's mind that he/she could lose everything he/she has worked so hard for by mistakenly butting into a fight that he/she has no idea who the actors are or who precipitated what. They could lose everything by being sued, or they could lose everything by having the person's beating each other up turning on you.

No one has mentioned the possibility of the two fighting to be family members. One stumbles in to break it up and the one you think you saved, turns on you for putting your hands on their family member.

 

[telpinaro]

Not to forget: a highly litigious society. The thought does cross a person's mind that he/she could lose everything he/she has worked so hard for by mistakenly butting into a fight that he/she has no idea who the actors are or who precipitated what. They could lose everything by being sued, or they could lose everything by having the person's beating each other up turning on you.

No one has mentioned the possibility of the two fighting to be family members. One stumbles in to break it up and the one you think you saved, turns on you for putting your hands on their family member.

Or... the one getting beat pulled a knife and attacked the other, and the one doing the beating got lucky and is now using the only method he can to stop the threat. I'm not saying he should be beaten beyond unconsciousness, but in that case I'd make d@mn sure he was down for the count before letting go.

 

[BluesStringer]

Having a defense to prosecution in criminal court won't necessarily keep you from having your pants sued off in civil court though.
I worry more about that than I do about criminal charges.
All bets are off as soon as a jury of your "peers" has to attempt to make a rational decision.

With many, not all, but many Stand Your Ground laws, immunity from both civil and criminal prosecution enures to the shooter or interventionist as long as the level of force used was legal under such statutes. Some other states have similar immunities separate and apart from SYG, just as a general rule in all legitimate self defense actions. I'm not sure what the ratio of states is with such immunities at this time, but I know it's not an insignificant number. I think it's half or better.

Blues

 

[BluesStringer]

My thoughts exactly. Do people in this country have any stones any more? What happened to us? Oh wait....political correctness and fear.

So you agree that there should be a law that people have to intervene? That's what "charged with neglect or worse" suggests, is that what you mean?

 

[Nightmare45]

And I have a reason to break up this fight? Call the cops, protect yourself and family.

 

[whodat2710]

Wait one minute. What the hell kind of question is this? What kind of person asks it? Let them beat the hell out of each other and call 911. Your job is done. You have no idea of the circumstances that started it. Maybe the guy deserves to get his head knocked-in.

I think that is one of the main problems with todays society, there is no fear of retribution! Some people would be better human beings if they had gotten a good a$$-whooping when they deserved it.

 

[ezkl2230]

Having a defense to prosecution in criminal court won't necessarily keep you from having your pants sued off in civil court though.
I worry more about that than I do about criminal charges.
All bets are off as soon as a jury of your "peers" has to attempt to make a rational decision.

Sent from my XT1060 using USA Carry mobile app

For what it is worth, in Michigan if it is found that your shooting was defensive and necessary, you are immune from civil prosecution.

 

[whodat2710]

For what it is worth, in Michigan if it is found that your shooting was defensive and necessary, you are immune from civil prosecution.

The problem is that if you weren't in the fistfight it is not defensive. It could qualify as self defense (defense of others) but is the guy winning the fight necessarily the bad guy? Same general topic in another thread http://www.usacarry.com/forums/concealed-carry-discussion/44490-should-i-help-stranger-trouble.html
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The best answer I saw was "how would you react if you were unarmed?" Point being, if you wouldn't jump in to stop the fight without a gun, then why does having a gun change that?